| IVOD_ID |
161338 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161338 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T10:51:52+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T11:06:37+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bf1c964c941b25dc5a35373469a84e2c3ab8e08a4c8c9179292b622d999c34a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:51:52 - 11:06:37 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：
一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。
三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。
四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。
（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）
【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 親愛的何慶昌 何市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
市長17號我們核三廠的二號機停掉之後台灣所有的核電就歸零了他馬上碰到的問題就是我們的電價變貴因為成本增高了而且空污增加了變髒了變髒又變貴所以昨天在野黨非常負責任的我們提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
81.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
核管法的修正我們把法律的這個障礙把它拿掉了希望可以把我們40年除疫的這個核電廠可以再延長60年這跟日本是一模一樣的跟國際是接軌的也符合民意那可是呢必須跟全國民眾講清楚到底核電要不要重啟 要不要延長這把鑰匙就在 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
110.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
民進黨政府跟台電的鎖上了如果台電不願意去申請民進黨政府不願意通過昨天雖然在野黨非常負責為了全國的民眾好我們完成了三讀可是以後的責任以後的責任我講得非常清楚全部都是民進黨負責至少民進黨要負四個責任我提出四大負責如果民進黨繼續擺爛不負責任全民就去跟民進黨討公道第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
134.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
發電成本增高之後如果電價增高了民進黨不用核電請找民進黨討公道這是民進黨第一個要負責的第二個空汙會變嚴重因為取代的是高達84%以上的火力發電我們用費發電空汙是增加的大家健康受到影響空汙嚴重了請找民進黨負責第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
136.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
161.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請為產業負責我們產業核電因為是低碳甚至是零碳可是你用火力發電之後我們的碳費增加了影響到我們產業的發展衝擊產業這個發展民進黨要負責任另外接下來我要談一個可能被忽略的為國安負責民進黨一直在標榜說要抗中保台可是從廢掉核能 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
163.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
191.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一直在用天然氣這個過程裡面你會發現民進黨啊抗中不只不保台還賣台變成中共的同路人了我給大家看一個報導最近啊法府就是美國啊法府在擔心什麼若解放軍發動封鎖台灣的天然氣因為存量不足會撐不下去就是會斷氣啦會影響到我們台灣整個這個防衛的這個韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
194.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
220.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那你們要保台灣那你用核電啊為什麼用那麼多的天然氣呢你現在核管法已經過了趕快回來用安全又可以持續穩定很久的核電而且依照國際公約聯合國的規定戰爭的時候不能擋核電廠可是大家有沒有注意到前陣子烏俄戰爭的時候俄羅斯是去打烏克蘭的天然氣儲存廠我再給大家看一個報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
224.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
247.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
4月2號啊 中共做了這個經驗 它在炸台灣六大目標裡面一個要摧毀是什麼永安天然氣的這個接收站啊你從烏鵝戰爭看出來了 你從它在模擬又看得出來了所以民進黨政府包括台電 你如果要抗中的同時 你要保台灣要用核電啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
248.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
269.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
要不然的話 民進黨就變成中共的同路人你的整個防衛任性被民進黨破壞掉了好 接下來我要問一個上次啊 我在這邊執行經濟部我提醒說啊台電的虧損還在持續擴大中1月份的時候台電虧損了97億結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
275.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
300.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
經濟部跟台電跟我講說 這樣算法可能有問題我說好 那你把你的算法給我結果呢 你們回我一個1158字的這個回文有關的只有114耶 不到十分之一耶而且沒有回答到重點啊 也沒有你說的你的計價方式啊我又跟你再次的這個所知你到現在沒有給我耶更嚴重了 來來來 我問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
303.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
315.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
大家知道嗎 1月份虧了97億現在前三個月台電又虧損了242億這樣下去一年 今年搞不好又虧掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
317.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
330.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
會將近千億喔 原來跟民眾講的五百億 落差很大更嚴重的你們上次跟我講一直在發一個新聞稿說你們台電虧損的主要原因是因為天然氣的這個價格還是高峰我今天給你一個很明確的 來你看在112年的時候我們每用發一度電的這個成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
344.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
365.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
自動發電就在台電給你換了 一度的用燃煤3.43元 對不對這是台電的資料嘛 如果是燃氣3.44可是到了113年 到了去年 就大幅降低了捏有看到沒有 降到多少 2塊5 2塊94耶到了今年114 我去看最近的資料2.64 3.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
369.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
390.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
價格是不是降下來所以第二個第二個也很重要的我們現在平均一度電的發電是多少錢成本3.75對不對你現在的天然氣跟燃煤你的發電成本都比我們發電一度電的平均發電成本都低耶你現在還一直在講說你們必須要漲價你們的虧損是這個燃煤跟燃電 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
394.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
400.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這不是很離譜嗎你不管是跟你現在自己的每一度電去比跟112年去比來那個先跟委員報告幾件事情第一個事情這個表示不同年份的數字這是第一個事第二個事情是您剛才提到的一些狀況就是說那個112年就是2023年2023年台電的虧損是2000多億2500億左右因為有補貼了500億所以變成1977億 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
424.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
440.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
狀況是這樣所以2022、2023才是台電虧損最嚴重的時候是那兩年2024以後就下降我們決算出來的虧損是441億今年我們預估大概因為預算編出來大概是這個規模可是還是要看能源價格的變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
441.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
460.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以真正的虧損是發生在2022、2023這兩年那到目前為止你如果是比的是國際油價其實台電並沒有直接進口天然氣所以真正的指標還是要看中油的天然氣排價所以我很清楚跟你講給你看的都是你們的決算跟預算報告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
461.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
479.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個比較就很清楚了嘛對不對我跟你講你講了一小部分啦我跟你講人民很清楚大概台電今年的成本確實有降啊但是你比較的是我會虧損兩千多億那一年的成本啊你懂我意思嗎就是說你拿了一個已經BIOS的機器來做比較人民看到你的虧損是 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
484.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
491.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
核電不用造成的一部分對不對買的地電太貴又出現弊案之後又沒有把它完全賣出去2022年2023年核三兩部機都在核二一部機也在但我們虧損最大的就是那兩年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
522.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個不是沒有用你不要用話術補導人民核二跟核三在的時候我跟你講台電自己的數據你回去就看到台電有公佈過去年台電有公佈一個名人雀雀的因為一個核三廠前年一年就賺300億喔這支台電足量對不對你不會否認吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
523.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
532.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是對核電廠來講 核澳跟核三都是幫台電賺錢的結果你現在把它廢掉了那為什麼虧損會增大 你不要睜眼說瞎話啦那個沒有睜眼說瞎話 沒有睜眼說瞎話一般人一聽就聽得懂的你明明是一個賺錢的核二廠 核三廠你把它停掉 虧損當然就擴大啊我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
545.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
569.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
照這樣子講的話如果我們不管是要選擇延逸重啟他這些新增的投資成本未來要不要算進我們的發電成本裡面是要的所以你不可以假定說這些成本不算未來我們如果是重啟或延逸基本上他發電成本還是會維持原來這麼低因為他已經是在最後要除役前幾年這些相關的花費是降低了我覺得這個基礎要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
571.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們一項一項跟國人做說明我沒有不要做說明我沒有開始鮮豔的說這件事情就是如何但是我們跟國人講清楚為了彌補你們的虧損你們3年已經佔了3000億了3年佔了4次電價給我動越來越大然後原因是什麼事實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
593.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
613.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
三個核電廠都在運轉的時候我們的空汙量才是最高的這幾年來有在下降所以空汙量的下降跟核電廠的使用可能有一點點關係 但它最不是主要關係很大關係吧 核電明明就是第一份之基礎地點啊委員 你去看你去看 你去看那個 問題是他真董事長 真董事長不要深言說笑話 核電廠我們叫民眾多說佳話 問題是那你明明用了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
619.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
621.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
台灣這個發電的占比只有10%你要去解決其他90%的問題而不是處理這10%的問題過去這幾年來台電努力降低火力發電的空汙量這個是我們環境監理機構都在講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
636.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
644.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這不是台電自己講的等一下 你今天的答詢完全違反常理先不要我講的每一點都是事實我每一點講的都是事實我講的都是事實你講的哪一點是常識 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
654.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
666.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
核電廠以前佔我們所有電的百分之十七它的成本是低的這一般民眾這常識聽得懂對不對然後你把這個其他的核一和核三把它補掉之後你的成本當然就升高這是一常識你的這個常識都要盡頭為什麼誤導民眾呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
683.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我覺得不可以這個樣子你講的東西核對一段段的內容足以台灣能源轉型的合理討論如果真的要討論你如果說真的要負責有三個負責第一安全這個是專業的責任第二核廢料能處理這是世代的責任最後民意這是民主的責任我覺得對台電來講我們要做好安全的責任我們要想辦法來解決核廢料的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
705.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
722.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
最後人民要怎麼選擇台電是事業單位尊重國內我們這整個包含國會這個是台灣的政府政府來做決定我問你一個常識性的問題核電是不是比天然氣跟燃煤便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
724.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
733.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第二個他的窗戶是不是比天然氣跟煤炭少所以他會變貴嘛你把他廢掉之後會變貴又變髒嘛我回答你剛剛講的三個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
740.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
759.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他到底安不安全 全世界每個人 包括美國 日本 法國全世界大家都 先進國家都在用核能而且是重返回核能 有哪一個國家說他不安全不安全人家敢用嗎而且我們是全世界的核能電廠 核能的操作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
783.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
都把安全當作他們最重要的手段 認真在處理我們核能人才是全世界肯定的我們核一核二核三都不想做 安全是全世界肯定的結果民進黨 你現在汙名化我們的核安人員嗎汙名化我們的核安人員 明明是全世界都肯定的安全你們為什麼要講他不安全呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
784.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
813.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
欸委員我剛才哪一句話在無話可說你嘴巴清楚講我們的核安到底安不安全為什麼要重啟核能你都不安全核能的安全不是一個人講或是你這樣子主張就安全核能的安全是基於技術跟嚴謹的程序來做到的嚴謹的程序跟合理的技術去做檢驗才做到的不是你在那邊講它安全你不怕昨天通過三讀的核管法嗎裡面就是明明確確第一個台電提出申請對不對第一個核安會要去檢查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
814.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
827.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是不是當然是安全的狀況下啊我剛剛進步跟你講全世界大家都認為安全而且肯定我們的核能是安全的你為什麼說它不安全我沒有說它核配量 核配量全世界都要處理我沒有講這些話 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
833.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
857.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我沒有直接這樣子輕率的下結論我從頭到尾都跟你說所有的安全建構所有的安全建構是建立在主理的然後在民意方面最近這幾次的民調你看一下不都六成以上認為要研議嗎我們還有與核洋利的公投你忘記了是不是好啦我們民眾黨還進一步去提出我們的核商公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
859.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
884.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我剛剛提出四大負責 請民進黨要思考第一個 現在主動權在你們手上了在野黨非常負責任 完整客觀的刪除以後就是民進黨副前者了 到底電費有沒有變貴有沒有變髒 讓我們健康受到影響有沒有衝擊到產業 有沒有影響到國安我相信台灣人民水準很高 大家共同來評判有問題找民進黨以後民進黨副前者不要再推脫了 謝謝好 謝謝 |