| IVOD_ID |
161322 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161322 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-14T10:08:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-14T10:21:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971ba39de5ec1e7c5360d304acf7f12681bd5433fb1cebf983d8f356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:08:36 - 10:21:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案。（詳如附件）） |
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謝謝主席,麻煩部長所以我安慰部長早,我還是想跟你提一下這個葛明德事件那我曉得你們已經簽陳儲是國防大學這個理工學院的院長跟相關的參謀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.585 |
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但這個事情這樣處理是不是到適當的程度我非常有疑議這事情的源頭是來自於國防大學我們跟他們簽了一個合作案讓這個老師去研究研究出來的專利最後竟然是歸葛明德所有他成立了一家公司公司的股東大會在國防大學裡面開公司找的股東有中國方面我們不允許的資本在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.465 |
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當時邱國正當部長站在我現在對立那邊說這個人該槍斃後來拖了半年遲遲不處理一直到媒體再揭露才把他從位置上停聘停聘半年而已後來當然是解聘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.695 |
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然後最近的風波是他在三四月份才被檢調搜索就差一點點五月一號人力生效他竟然從原來國防先進科技計畫的申請人也就剛才講的那個事件被該槍斃的事件竟然又被聘為那個計畫的審查審議組的審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
96.309 |
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從有瑕疵的裁判直接變成有瑕疵的球員轉個身份變成有瑕疵的裁判那這事情我當然有跟貴部相關的夜館溝通過那第一個問題是當時邱國正被質詢的時候國防大學教務長在這裡吧在嘛 你人在現場嘛那為什麼在聘這個審查委員的時候 |
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125.851 |
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他的名字還可以浮出來你們現在解釋都推給基層因為參謀新來的不知道院長不查所以院長記兩個過院長該被處分我沒有意見校長沒事啊校長怎麼幹的啊有事都下面人趕這麼大的事情當時的部長震怒回去該不要列管沒有列管然後這人輕輕放下靠山很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
155.523 |
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然後這次的處分還是只到院的層級學校的層級管理的層級通通沒有責任可以這樣子嗎部長我不知道你們懲處的邏輯是什麼就是說光管理一個學校這個學校的老師可以申請就專利我們花的錢最後專利居然歸那個老師的還讓他去開公司公司的股東坦白講他的股東現在是不是還在學校裡面 |
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182.691 |
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如果背後沒給他靠可以敢這樣子啊在學校開股東會找中國人來當股東所以我第一個要請教部長這個事件的層屬層級只到院妥適嗎它不是單一事件它是從去年連續發生到現在 |
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203.618 |
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我的理解或者等一下可以教授再補充一下我的理解好像這是理工學院的層級裡面通報出來的如果只有這一次我覺得到院夠重了可是問題是它有前因後果去年在這個委員會國防大學練習人員就知道葛明的這個事件了隔了六個月它又火起來了為什麼學校都不用管的 |
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235.19 |
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院的院長不用來這邊被尋的啊委員好 謝委員知道那個 廣東大學這邊報告啊有關於去年這個案子發生之後我們校長召開了很多次的管制會議然後以 包括那個停聘會議還有相關的那個 禁止那個高老師接觸各項研究案還有當任主持人的案子 他都有管制然後基於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
259.365 |
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責任檢討我們有兩點第一點就是在這個作業流程還有當初的國王科技官網的一個授權上面這確實是理工學院它單獨作業完成它是沒有職位我們那個校部第二點教育長這些事我們溝通過你們開了好多會議開了好多管制會議它不能接觸機敏的資料就當時可以被聘為審查委員那會議有用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
288.449 |
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303.303 |
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這跟委員報告因為這個案子後來的處置是很迅速的就在這個五月一號生效之前我們還要把它註銷那是因為有中科院的人說這個不妥當媒體報導出來了否則五月一號笑話就變顧立雄的笑話了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
304.346 |
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是 那就是因為你們不是內空發現的耶你們是媒體揭露你們才處理的耶是 那我們發現這個問題之後我們也是趕快做一個檢討整個作業流程都有做檢討我要回到部長這邊就是說這個事情有一個我們那天有跟軍備局也討論過了根據工程會我們所有的標案 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
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的審查委員其實他的法律跟道德瑕疵是列入考量的後來呢 部長你知道嗎我們盤點了一下這個先進科技研究計畫它其實有點像標案有點像最有力標這些大學提了proposal進來核准的會有五千萬幾千萬欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.732 |
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他也是一種標案結果獨獨我們軍方哪怕我們引改要蓋的房子什麼的我們在招標的時候審查委員的資格裡面是有根據公共工程委員會有一些他有法律疑義有道德瑕疵的會迴避掉喔全部只有先進科技研究計畫的審查委員沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
367.07 |
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軍備局我這樣講沒錯啦這個我們討論過了嘛就是說所有的標案喔我們在招標的時候去勾這些審查委員根據工程委員會對其他政府標案根據我們國防部對其他相關標案這個審查委員有利益迴避問題最近有被司法調查有相關的瑕疵會把他移開 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
389.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
405.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
怎麼會獨獨國防先進科技研究計畫的這個審議組的委員沒有嘛獨獨他沒有嘛我這樣講沒有錯嘛所以我們看到一個案子我們當然會難過會憤怒但我們也希望一起研討找出亡羊補牢的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
406.169 |
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428.865 |
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未來在這一個先進科技研究計畫的審查委員上是不是應該比照其他的標案雖然有人認為是學校提proposal但這個是有的幾百萬有的幾千萬的proposal講標案的金額也不是小案是不是應該把這樣子的考量跟其他的標案對審查委員有疑義的資格應該一致性的考慮我不知道部長看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.565 |
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455.899 |
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是跟委員說明我們確實對這件事情受到了一個重大的教訓所以我們會根據這個您講的這個工程工工程委員會他們這一個有關採購評選委員會的專家學者的這種參考名單的資料庫的這個專業性跟公正性有一個要點的一個規範我們會根據這個要點來即日起把那個規範納入進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
458.34 |
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475.509 |
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坦白講我一面覺得劉志斌校長好像無辜啊因為沒有排除這個坦白講這鐵人腦袋在幹下面框了300個審查委員只有這種審查委員萬一裡面爆出一兩個有牽涉到共諜案的勾出一個過去牽涉到貪賭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
477.251 |
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497.307 |
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結果審查的時候根本沒有這樣排除的條件那這個長官多難當所以一面我可以體會這個校長好像是有點無辜但另外一面這件事情從去年爆發到現在整個處理的過程看起來是如火如荼有節有奏到最後是根本沒效他還是浮出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.547 |
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也就是本席剛才發現審查委員這資格事情應該是在學校裡面開各項的管考會議的時候你們應該發現說這個審查委員我們沒有把這個有道德瑕疵法律瑕疵法律異議利益迴避的人排除應該當時納入納入的話就不會發生5月1號差一點人令公佈他成為審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.87 |
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所以跟委員報告我只能說第一點就是說就我的了解校長在有受到這個案子當之前有停聘然後後來這個案子檢方啟動偵查之後他馬上停止他的所有相關的這些研究的計畫案那另外也逐步的要開各級的這個評議這個會那最後在5月6號就5月6號就已經開校教評會將他解聘這樣子那部長 |
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554.541 |
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561.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
檢調啟動調查是在事情爆發將近四個半月五個月後整個處理是慢的第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
586.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第二個你停聘一堆不能接觸這些研究案結果跑出一個漏洞他竟然當了研究案的審查委員所以這就有一個洞嘛那這個洞為什麼沒有被發現誰有責任我一直認為誰有責任誰就該處分不是長官的連坐而是管理的人有管理的責任執行的人有執行的責任不是萬事小兵扛啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
587.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
613.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
管理的責任就應該管理階層要扛起來所以這個懲處人事權是您的權利我不干涉但我告訴你這件事情如果只懲處到這個層級等於枉費過去六個月到底做了什麼事情怎麼這個洞還會發生這個洞是可以堵住的然後呢我最後要提醒他成立那家公司股東部長你可以跟檢調調一個名冊股東有哪些人那些人是不是還在學校裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
614.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
641.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
有沒有查一下就是說我不確定有我也不確定沒有但是你們應該去了解一下說他敢在學校開股東會股東有沒有我們學校的人有沒有甘股有沒有背後的人這個是先進科技雖然是屬於發展期還未達機敏程度但也看得出來我們國軍要投入資本研究的方向他的公司敢在國防大學裡面開 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
643.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
662.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你如果說沒人給他靠我實在是不太敢相信外面隨便住個餐廳都能開了黨大萬為到這個程度所以股東的成分了解一下好不好可不可以請國防部跟國防大學或者相關單位了解了解完給我們委員會一個報告我想我們下去以後請你了解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
664.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
委員好,我是理工學院院長,跟你報告,這個武東一開始是12個人成立的12個裡面有多少是國防大學的人?這裡面有4個是國防大學的人有一個是革命的老師,那他是以他兒子的名義來做那另外三個老師,其中兩個已經離開學校了分別是退休還有已經過世了,那還剩下一個老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
689.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
715.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那他在這個案發是112年12月在那個之前他在111年的12月的時候把他的股份全部都轉讓了轉讓給其他股東其他股東所以那個公司有出具一個證明就是說該員已經不是本公司的股東坦白講你不覺得這個公司是一群我們國防大學的老師違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
718.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
743.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
去成立的一公司放在學校裡面你不覺得很誇張嗎然後這些在之前的那個處分都已經按照違反禁止進來都記過一次然後即便是已經退休的還是記過一次我還是建議就把這個流程相關人間接的三等親查一下然後能夠亡羊補牢卻沒有補到的管理的責任該負還是要負這個給部長做參考好不好 謝謝部長是 好 謝謝 先問指教 |