| IVOD_ID |
160978 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160978 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-07T09:10:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-07T09:27:07+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06941e4838e6362d0b115e7528c8151ef5c49de4876f6fadf4e86ae137a36932bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:10:11 - 09:27:07 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.089 |
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麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
20.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
44.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員長部長早今天召委針對有關於聯合國事業的時候所出的調查報告排了這一個專案我看了法務部的報告我必須要說跟我看完聯合國的報告兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
為什麼我說兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感因為在聯合國的報告當中所呈現出來的一些關鍵的問題在法務部的報告當中我都沒有看到一些適度的回應所以我一開始一個最基本的問題是法務部在準備今天的專案報告以前這份聯合國的報告看過嗎這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
75.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
87.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這邊聯合國的報告看過嗎有這部分我有看過你有看過嗎部長看完這個報告以後覺得這個報告有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
105.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這部分的確是有提到就是有四個案例是跟台灣有關那裡面我們有就試圖的去做一個瞭解一個瞭解這裡面有四個案就第一個是一個部長我們一個一個來好了這樣子問題的層次會比較清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
138.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個聯合國出這份報告的單位應該是打擊毒品跟犯罪的辦公室嗎?是我們國家跟這個辦公室有聯繫過嗎?有任何的互動交流嗎?這個我們沒有這個從來沒有任何互動交流?有嗎?這個要有警政署因為法務部這要看警政署有沒有在請警政署有跟他們互動過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
166.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沒有嘛 剛剛署長在下面說沒有嘛因為我們一個一個來啦我老實說啦身為一個台灣人我看完聯合國的這份報告以後我心情很難過台灣怎麼會被聯合國的報告描述成一個這樣的地方我為什麼說我心情很難過啊我一個一個代部長看來在這個聯合國的報告當中啊對於台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
168.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
179.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他是怎麼標示的來請部長看右下角這個地圖這個報告你看過你應該熟啊他後面寫個台灣後面寫POC POC是什麼這個這個這個這個我我我對這個我沒有去注意到這個POC的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
194.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
222.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
部長你不是說你看過報告嗎我看過就是最主要的是因為我們有做一個來來來我再往下看你說你地圖沒看沒有關係來看一下內文右上角BG1是一個被他所沒有點名的集團他那個集團來你看右上角他說這是在二十幾年前在台灣POC所設立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
244.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
部長看到這個POC的時候不會覺得很奇怪嗎?這POC指的是什麼?很抱歉我是看那個範例的你是看翻譯的,那部裡面的同仁他怎麼翻譯給你的?台灣POC他怎麼翻的? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.629 |
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257.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
布長你跟我說你看過,你看翻譯本沒有關係,我好奇的是布裡面的統人,台灣POC是怎麼翻給你看的? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
287.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這我想這個委員吼不會在這個我有看過整個一個一個整個鑰匙吼這個裡面就是說他這跟台灣有關其實他講這四個案例這個四個案例就是說他比如說他那個負責人他那個一個一個一個部長對不起我還是打斷一下啦我們一個城市一個城市的問題啦我想我們不要再去談這個POCPOC他對我們中華民國是一個是一個不禮貌的一個稱呼啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
306.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那所以部長你顯然知道POC是什麼嗎?這個我想這個委員你是何必在這邊問我齁那我想奇怪我在這邊問你這個問題有很過分嗎?對你要問的不是這樣問說我們跟台灣就是我們國家這四個案例最主要是四個案例不是啊剛剛部長你說我不必要在這邊問你但 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
331.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個牽涉到台灣的國格啊這個聯合國它這裡面的一個寫法本來就是對台灣是不友善的是 非常好 你說得非常好嘛所以部長你明明就知道POC是什麼 這個我才說台灣跟這個辦公室是不是有任何的互動當出現這樣子的國家報告對台灣不友善的時候別人對我們不友善 我們自己要有立場嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
332.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
348.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其實我要講的就是這一句話啦這個就是我們是標示我們是中華民國嘛是啊那他顯然就不是這樣標示嘛這個我想這個委員都清楚我想這個不禮貌的這個對台灣很不友善的一個稱呼那我想這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
374.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我們就這部分的我們就來研究說這部分到底裡面到底四個案例嘛那我們有看過這四個案例委員大概也應該也看過嘛這個是案例就是說他的負責人或者是說那些跟台灣以前有二十幾年就以前有關這裡面我們很注意看這裡面到底有沒有人名有沒有公司的名稱有沒有查證的方向這個對我們來講我們是很有興趣去做一個瞭解啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
375.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
399.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以到目前為止了解的狀況怎麼樣我現在就一個問題一個問題來啦剛第一個我其實要跟部長講的是說啊聯合國這樣標示我們任何台灣人看了都會不高興嗎其實我只是要make一個point我們的政府要有反應如此而已第二個部分就剛剛啊部長說要去了解這個business group one他們所標示的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
BG1指的是哪一個集團現在法務不了解的狀況如何有辦法特定是哪一個集團嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
436.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他這個因為他這個沒辦法去查證去查證因為他是有提到聯合國出的報告沒有辦法查證那問題大了那這個20多年前在台灣成立嘛那也移到中南亞或其他國家那我國只是早期的註冊來看一下部務長請你看一下我為什麼要把原文標出來你看一下右下角的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
453.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你看右上角沒錯啊,它是二十幾年前在台灣成立的嘛一個非常線上,非常大的博弈集團嘛線上非常大的博弈集團從台灣出發然後擴展到東南亞各國,這個是右上角那段講的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
454.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我有興趣的是右下角的那一段右下角的那一段說這個集團到目前為止包括在台灣還設立了非常多的紙上公司在從事非法的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
469.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
今天我們看一個聯合國的報告第一個如果這個聯合國的報告寫得不實那我們應該要有國家的態度嘛第二個如果這個聯合國的報告寫出了我們自己的檢調沒有掌握的部分那我們就應該要去了解嘛這個才是實事求是的方法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
505.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以第三個我要問的事情是說他說BG1的這個集團在目前在台灣還設有很多紙上公司這件事情法務部我們的檢調或者是行政院打詐中心還是警政署有進行任何了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
533.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個裡面有提到就是有些集團齁上海集團就是跟以台灣為基地的三合會那這部分那個那個是下一頁啦請你針對一個一個問題回答嘛你講的這些都是什麼這都是沒有具體的一個所以你認為這個聯合國的報告沒有具體的內容嗎沒有具體的一個一個人名公司名嘛那當然所以無從追查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
533.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
538.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
聯合國這份報告的品質顯然大有問題嘛按照部長你今天的態度基本上就是這個樣子嘛這個我們會請調查局來持續今天調查局有來嗎來請調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
556.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
567.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
部長看起來不是很熟啦局長應該比較熟啊他右下角所講的說在台灣還有一些紙上公司調查局有去了解嗎我們現在正在試圖要去了解當中需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
569.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
595.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
呃...這個我不敢給委員一個很明確的...我這樣說好了啦我會認真的...認真的去...今天...沒有關係啦你...你可以繼續講形容詞這個我都尊重啦我只想跟法務部跟調查局講一個共同的概念任何看完這一份聯合國調查報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的書面報告沒有回應到它裡面所指出來的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
596.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
618.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第一個任何看完這份報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的報告沒有回應到他的問題那當然我這樣的評價對還是不對所有的人大家都有眼睛都可以去閱讀都可以去思考有人會說看完了以後如果我講的不對那我自然而然會受到社會輿論的指責嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
620.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
說黃國昌你胡說八道我們法務部的報告我們調查局的報告對聯合國的這份報告其實做了非常充分的回應有人或許會有這樣的想法我不知道但我負責任的講我看完這份報告了以後我必須要說不管是法務部的報告還是調查局今天提出來的報告其實都沒有在回應講不及格三個字或許太沉重了來第二個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
649.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
BG-1他上面提到跟台灣黑道目前的合作關係這個合作關係調查局有去了解嗎我們現在都是這個報告對我們來說其實都很新我們之前確實是沒有去注意到這一份報告這個報告什麼時候出版的四月的時候四月嘛所以 昭緯其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
676.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
694.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
也蠻有眼光的啊挑了一份你們之前沒有注意到的報告提醒你們注意這份報告是在上次委員會的時候好像是王宏威委員他第一次提出我們才注意到有這份報告我們必須要很誠實的說那我們也馬上去找到這份報告來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
695.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
713.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那報告的內容其實他聯合國他也有一個很明確的說法說這個是他的員工還有就是說他聯合國也沒有經過證實這一整個報告的內容但是我們還是很重視等一下局長我去建議你啦你的意思是說聯合國出了這個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
714.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
740.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但他沒有確認這個報告的內容 這個事情很大條喔是在他報告裡面寫的 我們都看過了但是我們對他報告的內容所指出跟我們台灣有關的部分我們仍然相當相當的重視OK 沒關係啦 之前沒有注意到嘛因為委員的質詢讓你們注意到嘛我們很謝謝委員 謝謝那現在開始要去追蹤啦 我們拭目以待啦給你們一點時間啦 讓你們有時間去注意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
741.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
765.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為包括了裡面這個Red Dragon到底指的是哪一個幫派以及接下來在這個聯合國的報告下面台灣的國際形象我必須要說啦對台灣的國際形象傷害蠻大的如果裡面的報告有不實的部分那就希望法務部跟調查局發一個正式的聲明嚴正 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
766.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
776.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
的駁斥那如果裡面有報告是你們該知道卻沒有知道的事情有這個情資啊就進一步繼續啊往下追因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
778.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
針對有關於來台灣這一邊設立不管是詐騙集團洗錢的網絡利用金融科技當作名義成立的公司事實上在報告裡面甚至連公司的名字你真的要去找的話其實是找得出來的其實是找得出來在台灣設立了好幾年到去年的時候10月才突然宣布停業但沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
804.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
819.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
法務部也好 調查局也好說上個月之前沒有注意到最近注意到這個報告 願意去蒐集是好事最後的時間我只想請問一下法務部我們吹哨者保護法如期上路準備好了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
820.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
843.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這不有廉政署在準備執法的一個釘釘吹哨者保護法是為了保護吹哨人嗎如果今天吹哨者向廉政署去檢舉的話廉政署應該揭露吹哨者的身份嗎這個吹哨者身份是要保密的啊這個吹哨者身份是要保護的嗎好來 請部長看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
845.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
866.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
民眾向廉政署檢舉說請政署有人扶抱加班費那剛剛部長回答了我第一個問題廉政署不應該洩漏檢舉員的身份給原單位這個基本的原則沒有問題嗎這個檢舉的 如果說檢舉原單位當然是不應該去是嗎 是不適合去 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
874.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
900.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那個不是不適合根本就不應該嘛剛剛你回答的答案就很標準嘛來請部長回去瞭解結果聯政署處理的方式是直接叫內政部警政署保安警察第二大隊第二總隊第一大隊直接回函給檢舉員直接告訴警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
901.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
928.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
保安警察隊到底是誰檢舉的啊?這個是現在廉政署處理事情的SOP嗎?那個公文的字號114年3月19號保二一督制地114001942號函廉政署轉給保二直接請保二回函給檢舉人我現在就看不懂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
929.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
944.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為有人來跟我投訴啊跟廉政署檢舉結果廉政署處理的方法是叫寶二回函給檢舉人那不就讓寶二知道是誰檢舉的嗎這個是目前廉政署處理的SOP嗎這個是不是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
946.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
971.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
接避者保護法裡面的檢舉齁這個我不清楚齁這要做一個個案齁那這一件所以你的意思是什麼這一件事不是我不清楚齁那沒有關係你不清楚我給你時間了解部長一個禮拜之內回覆好不好可以嗎這個這個是不是我們再請那個那個廉政署來是啊廉政署不是在法務部轄下嗎我有理解錯誤嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
973.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1000.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以我這個事情問法務部部長很過分嗎我給法務部一個禮拜的時間回去了解清楚廉政署可以這樣幹嗎這樣時間還不夠這樣時間還不夠充分嗎這個是不是一個月這麼簡單的事情要一個月喔這個還要公文王牌因為這已經到那個警政署沒關係啊看多少時間啊我讓昭偉裁示這麼簡單的事情要一個月好謝謝那我們盡快啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1007.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1010.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
請教部長可以加快速度嗎那我們就半個月兩個禮拜黃委員部長說兩週給你那再麻煩部長 |