| IVOD_ID |
160945 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160945 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-05T09:57:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-05T10:09:48+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7a8ea4a163b9c8fed7d3e2c5f8a9bba8e0c8bc14232be7724ac136d7d602a4a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王義川 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:57:35 - 10:09:48 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
40.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
呃 基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
61.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對 當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好 謝謝 那請回好 我們現在請這個調查局去講 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
68.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
76.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
77.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
99.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
不是 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
100.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
114.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
118.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
134.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
136.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
160.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
163.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
186.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
187.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
207.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是有些因為他不是公務員 因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員 他是約聘僱人員的 就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核 那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
209.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
228.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
231.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不是說一定不能 就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽 你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
279.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
281.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
292.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
293.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
320.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那這個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說 如果立法院不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
321.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
347.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
356.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
365.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
398.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
401.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
425.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
427.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
453.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
456.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
466.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
472.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
520.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
532.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
537.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
552.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
561.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我的意思是說 比如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
584.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
603.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
604.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
630.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
632.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
672.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
673.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
688.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
689.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
718.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
719.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
730.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝 |