| IVOD_ID |
160855 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160855 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-01T09:37:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-01T10:03:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:25:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc06dd707643d49e0e02ae3c352587f86955d77c67688655a4250fc6cff46c367e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳思瑤 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:37:30 - 10:03:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─避免共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席我相信周萬來秘書長此時此刻他仍不敢來到司法法治委員會但他一定在立法院的某一個空間某一個辦公室 |
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正在看著司法法治委員會的線上直播所以我相信我現在對於周秘書長所提出的各項議題的質詢他就算沒有來也應當認真聽也應當做筆記畢竟能夠來成為立法院的秘書長 |
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是國家賦予責任是人民對國會有所期待秘書長即便成了州亂來成了州不來但是他還是中華民國立法院的秘書長該做的事還是應當做好 |
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而不是一再的代乎職責首先要跟主席先報告今天本席依舊會再次提出臨時提案周秘書長一次不來我們就譴責一次我想這也創下了立法院有史以來單周 |
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第三次被譴責的任何一個我們的從政人員應當是也創下了史上被譴責次數最密集的一個記錄而這個負面的記錄是他自己做到的 |
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那今天我很認真的針對這一週我們沒有辦法來發言來進行民主討論理性對話的三個主題簡要盡可能濃縮為一次的發言我希望能夠透過議事記錄能夠明確的登載因為立委的問政向公民負責向社會負責 |
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那今天我們要來看看立法院已經成了太上院除了去年國會擴權的法案一再的被大法官打臉國會並沒有國會優位但顯然藍白的委員還有韓國瑜主導的立法院是憲法於無物立院最大就像是一個傳染病一樣 |
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不只立法院自己認為他是所有憲政機關地位最高的權力最大的連在立法院內部 |
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的監督質詢民主運作居然韓院長跟周秘書長聯手立院最大在立法院的內部也成了一個上癮之前說違憲上癮現在是立院最大已經都成癮了所以今天我們除了再次的提出譴責之外我們要很嚴正的表達 |
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这不是针对任何的个人立法院的秘书长今天是周万来过去有林志嘉有不同的人未来也会有新的人来接任但不管谁担任这个职务都要恪遵一世中立我们关切的不是对于个人的批判而是对于制度的捍卫 |
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昨天我們的主席莊昭偉說得非常好周恩來一再地藐視國會缺席司法法治委員會依程序議題合理正當所發出的備詢的邀請這個作為是對整個民主制度的背叛 |
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265.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這樣子的缺席藐視國會不循程序請假甚至要造成我們的會議沒有辦法進行這樣的惡行惡狀是一種對於台灣國會民主制度的背叛原來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們的院長就是始作俑者居然院長無視於我們的內規院長要意識中立院長更要政治中立但是呢我們韓院長426上凱道我們固然尊重他的言論自由但是身為立法院的院長用許多不倫不類的比喻 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
298.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
315.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
來闡述台灣現在民主的危機我如果要套用韓院長的話他所謂的賴清德只會清一色而事實上真正清一色的人就不折不扣是韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
317.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
328.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為立法院已經成了藍白一色這藍白一色是什麼就是意識毫不中立政治也毫不公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
354.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那只要藍白要的 什麼都給 都開綠燈只要少數黨 民進黨的主張一再的被噤聲 被閹割 下一頁第一個最大的檔案是議事爭議也就是週三 昭偉所排的這個議案想就教於周恩來秘書長違法會議可以弄假成真嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
355.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
非法表决可以成为国会的惯例吗如果以现在国民党上上下下挺作弊挺违法挺造假的这个逻辑看来 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
周恩來乃至於韓國瑜院長在立法院所進行的非法會議違法表決也不過是整個國民黨體系系統性集體性的一種違法作弊的行為的延伸所以郭平動上上下下一個樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
426.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我這裡列舉出來的議事爭議包括第一大類違反程序正義國會沒了民主討論第二大類是議事雙標行政中立蕩然無存第三大類是操弄行政程序居然可以把立法院三讀通過的法案作為人質肉票壓在立法院不送就不送 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
448.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
想送才送出包括選罷法延宕35天才送出才化法延宕62天才送出包括總預算延了30天送出一個沒有完整數額前所未見的預算審查案細節我就不多說 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
449.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
466.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以說 韓國瑜院長的藍白一色 韓國瑜院長的青一色就是一再的護航包庇藍白拔拍掉 意識不中立 成為台灣民主的常態其實剛剛裴宇委員說我們在這裡對著空氣說話 其實是蠻煎熬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
498.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我今天也有一點另外的感慨週一週三司法法治委員會有許多的媒體同仁來關切他們想要探尋立法院的秘書長會成為違法院的秘書長嗎週一週三還有很多媒體關切這個事但今天週四媒體在現場已經寥寥無幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
502.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我要說的是如果在立法院舉手表決第一次民主倒退30年在國會擴權法案表決的時候舉手表決造成台灣社會多大的震撼可是第二次第三次在12月20號的限訴法選報法裁判法再一次動用舉手表決的時候台灣的社會可能已經麻木了可能覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
530.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
過去有舉手表決那現在再來一次也沒什麼關係了就像今天會議一樣周恩來一次不來兩次不來媒體會追蹤會報導社會會譴責會批判可是到第三次的時候整個社會恐怕也麻木了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
569.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
一個立法院秘書長對於制度的背叛當社會都已經麻木不仁不再關切也就是讓惡力成了慣例讓違法成了常態我認為這真的是台灣民主最大的悲哀 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
570.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
582.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以周恩來秘書長 號稱立法院的活字典我們從國會助理 大學讀書 研究所念政治一再的都會拜讀周恩來秘書長所寫的議事規則但是當他自己踐踏了 打臉了過去書中所闡述的議事規則跟議事中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
593.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
605.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那讓這樣子的意識不中立成為立院的常態我真的覺得比悲哀更悲哀下一頁我進入第二個主題就是國會擴簽件的爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
608.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是周一召委用心良苦想要了解的議題在游錫堃院長擔任第十屆立法院院長的時候國會擴建 簽建有具體的進程跟規劃甚至在2021年啟動成立了產官學研跨領域的專家委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
631.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
經過幾年的討論也評選出六處優先考慮的擴遷建的基地長址包括中正紀念堂的園區包括空總的舊址也有委員提出土城看守所的限址 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
649.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
665.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
也有人提出台中成功嶺的營區或是高鐵彰化車站特定區乃至於中興文化創意產業園區在南投這是過去的第十屆專家學者討論的幾個擴建基地的選址我們以為 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
698.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這樣子的討論會延伸不論選擇在哪裡台灣要作為一個國會的民主表徵它能夠成為民主監督的基地可以成為公民社會成炕的場域可以成為台灣民主教育的空間能夠成為國會外交的場址可以成為民主觀光的景點 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
699.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
717.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
當初這是由院長提出來的幾個宏觀的vision但是到韓院長的任內呢他一再推給黨團來協商再來討論後續但是黨團要不要協商是韓院長你要不要主持啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
718.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
721.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
韓院長就把立法院的擴建簽件這個時代的使命推給黨團協商而他本人不開協商然後連帶影響立法院已經編列的709萬的先期規劃評估報告一直暫緩執行到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
740.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
765.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以擴遷建的爭議我們需要有宏觀遠見的立院院長來持續的撥劃擴大公共的討論很可惜那個具有宏觀遠見的立院院長不是韓國瑜下一頁我昨天在會議上也對召委提出詢問如果周恩來秘書長成了周不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
767.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
795.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們這會期要解凍預算那立法院的解凍預算不解凍了嗎雖然立法院的解凍預算金額不高好像只有800多萬但是循程序秘書長還是要來列席而我這邊具體針對立法院的預算執行的爭議我也想要就叫周萬來秘書長我相信他現在正在看直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
797.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
813.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
立法院一直二砍二删其他的憲法機關的預算其他政院部會的預算可是韓院長花錢不手軟用公帑來做個人的人情院長不折不扣就是康樂股長我們看看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
815.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
836.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這一張照片是國民黨的委員他在社群上PO出的他很開心的說韓院長呢很體恤立法院的職工員工買了五星級精華五星級精華酒店的月餅禮盒每一盒高達1380元立法院的職員工有1149位換算出來這一個花大錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
846.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
862.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
來做人情的花費就高達159萬我們認為職員工都很辛苦可是過去沒有任何一個院長花這麼大的金額一次性而且是五星級的月餅這是對應於我們在二崁二山其他院預算的同時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
872.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
891.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
立法院長可以這樣大手筆的花錢然後容許我們持續的去惡砍別人的預算嗎下一頁預算的爭議還有一個立法院的電梯中心大樓的三座電梯一直故障怎麼修怎麼故障 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
893.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
916.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
韓院長很重視 所以要編預算再來修我們支持 因為這涉及安全可是呢 立法院的預算這麼多可是我赫然發現 立法院要修電梯啟動的二倍金2350萬是要求行政院支應啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
917.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
942.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
立法院修電梯自己不掏錢拗行政院買單而這個時刻還是立法院在大砍行政院預算的時間這樣的預算爭議立法院花不起這筆錢嗎周恩來秘書長在直播的另一邊您好好思索這個問題希望您以書面回答 下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
944.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
947.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我也要請立法院秘書長以書面回答當我們砍監察院的預算砍了97%連監察院買衛生紙都綁手綁腳可是立法院添購新的設備卻是大手大腳大手筆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
961.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
970.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我就發現最近立法院一直在換電視我不曉得章偉還有在場的委員是不是觀察我們的辦公室的電視一換再換113年貸換一次花了將近160萬114年又編了將近125萬加36萬要再換100台的電視 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
985.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
998.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
電視都壞光了嗎為什麼一直大手筆的在花錢呢就我自己的辦公室電視都還可以觀看都還很新為什麼要花這些冤枉錢好再來講電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1001.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1009.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我赫然發現立法院編列預算汰換電話2900台以及行動分機500台藥花公帑6,899萬當我們大砍其他的部會的預算的時候我們自己買電視換電話這樣子的預算執行爭議請周萬來秘書長用書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1031.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1051.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
第三個主題是今天召委排的主題小心匪諜就在立法院這絕對是嚴肅的國安漏洞公民監督聯盟所票選出來2024立法院的代表字居然是匪共匪這個匪 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1053.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1061.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
代表共諜是不是滲透進入了立法院這已經成為社會高度關注的議題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1063.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1087.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
袁紅冰教授去年已經點出習近平下達指示在立法院的新國會鎖定韓國瑜、鎖定傅坤祺乃至於附隨組織黃國昌只要能夠影響這三人戰場就在立法院不論是以查弊案之名來破壞台灣的國防自主或經濟安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1089.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1110.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
或者是用國會改革的名義來遂行國會的擴權讓立法院成為台灣實體政治權力最大的舞台當然還包括要強化跟中國的統戰互動這些等等袁紅冰作家教授所說的每一件事情都應驗了下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1112.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1137.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以說共諜的爭議無所不在無孔不入國會極有可能是破口法務部我們上週所排列的專案報告吳宗憲委員所排的法務部所提出來的匪諜滲透的破口沒有辦法提到立法院因為立法院要自我克責自己來保密防諜下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1139.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1160.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
但是共諜的事件層出不窮是不分黨派在立法院藍白委員最近都在打2025年4月發生的前院長游錫堃辦公室的助理涉及向中共洩露立法院的相關機密當然該辦有共諜一定要辦不分黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1161.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1171.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
但是藍白的委員不要忘了2020年立委陳淑慧的前助理立委張立善的前助理都涉犯了共諜案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1173.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1194.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
2024年李上典郭沛晶兩位涉及收受中國的資助來為立委鄭天才助選免費招待選民赴中旅遊2024年的8月民眾黨的發言人桃園黨部馬志威收受中國資助百萬來選立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1197.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1218.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這不都是共諜滲透的明證嗎更不要說陳玉珍號稱他的助理游志斌有中國籍還來大鬧國會所以要查共諜不分黨派都有被滲透的可能或是現在進行是大家修法立法要一起來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1220.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1249.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我具体的提出现在公部门对于公务人员的查核拒绝或者是情治人员国安人员资安人员有不同的查核跟调查的程序跟这个分级分类立法院目前没有任何查核或拒绝的机制请在线上观看直播的周万来秘书长好好来研究一套国会如何防范共谍 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1250.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1264.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
的自我克責跟相關的內規這是立法院要做的事不分黨派都要來做來最後而民進黨在這裡宣誓民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1266.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1293.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
會先行就以附中登載公開揭露的這件事情在立委的層次我們修的兩岸人民關係條例港澳人民關係條例等等已經被藍白聯手擋了363次如果說連立委附中登載一再被擋那未來如果要擴及立委的團隊助理 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1294.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1316.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
恐怕在立法院也很難過關但是民進黨團會先行我們已經啟動研議針對民進黨團的立委或助理群我們研議已簽同意書來做到主動揭露附中的相關資訊希望能夠藉由這樣子的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1318.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1330.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
公開的登載能夠來達到事前報備事後報告來做很多防止共諜滲透的可能性的防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1331.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1354.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以藍白不做的民進黨團會先行但是我剛剛就教於周恩來秘書長的立法院如何建立一個內部的自我管控自我克責國會的自律針對防止共諜滲透的這件事情請立法院要以書面報告來答覆委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1356.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1379.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
最後我用一分鐘的時間我要代表柯建民總召他已經具體針對周萬來秘書長高百祥議事處長還有郭明正法治局長具體提出了刑事的告發而告發的理由當然奠基於這一年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1381.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1402.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
被告周萬來高百祥身為立法院重要行政幕僚本應依公務員服務法及相關職責來確保議事程序之中立公正與合法為兩人明知議事規則之適用卻蓄意濫權代呼職務協助違反正常運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1404.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1432.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
協助違反議事的正常運作並縱容議事失序進而造成國會內部的民主癱瘓立委投票權也屢屢遭受非法妨礙因此柯建民總召對於上述三位提出了刑法第130條公務員廢除職務釀成災害罪來提起刑事的告發所以在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1434.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1460.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這一個告發已經提出不管是公務員要送工程會懲戒或者是來做進行司法後續的告發跟偵辦我想民進黨團我們針對的不是個人我們針對的是對國會民主的制度那也要最後請教於昭偉我看到吳宗憲昭偉已經排了下週的議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1462.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1479.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
如果周萬來所引用的立法院各委員會組織法第二條成立的話吳宗憲下周他不能排任何一個未經院會交付的專題報告可是他禮拜一跟禮拜三都排了專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1481.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1508.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
如果韓國瑜引用的條文成立的話吳宗憲召委也不得邀請擔任幕僚長的總統府秘書長國安會秘書長列席司法法治委員會所以這不是雙標什麼是雙標這不是藍白要的什麼都可以少數黨所排的案一律都封殺所以奧勒拜拿捏這幾個秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1511.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1531.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
是不是也可以如同週案來秘書長一樣不請假就不來開會這樣的專案報告是不是就不能成立不能成會我們不能監督不能質詢不能討論了呢所以這是一個非常嚴正的提問那我也在這裡結束我今天的 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1532.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1547.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
三次會議集合一次的質詢我們希望列為議事記錄希望在線上觀看的周秘書長周秘書長好好的以書面報告來回答今天本席所提出來的相關問題好謝謝吳世耀委員 |