| IVOD_ID |
160795 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160795 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T11:23:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T11:38:22+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a698fe5b10a14bb18b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f8823d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:23:11 - 11:38:22 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長部長好 部長辛苦了明天就是五一勞動節也是部長就任以來第一個勞動節那部長還記得接下來部長一職的時候那卓院長有給你三個主要的任務 部長還記得吧記得就這三個嘛 我就不再贅述了那請問有達標嗎 |
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29.489 |
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38.883 |
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這幾個月我們很努力希望往這些方向去邁進你沒有回答我,你沒有答標但我知道你很努力,我沒有說你不努力我們盡力做 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
41.257 |
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67.481 |
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好啦第一點就是紅部長接任的所要任務就在後續處理上我想部長也展現了十足的行動力跟決心嘛穩定這整個勞動部這我必須要肯定啦但第二點勞動部是為了健全友善合理的持長讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國家為人民為社會來做做全力的這樣的一個付出嘛那我就要請部長來看這個相關的數據重大旨在什麼人數 |
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72.794 |
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94.674 |
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108就316然後109 313其實每每講到這個數據其實坦白講是很沉痛那10278這個是疫情的時候然後11就開始在往上提升但是那113又降下來287那114年截至目前為止4月是70個人你們有講說應該會比往前年度更少有把握嗎 |
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98.137 |
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112.306 |
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比前一年會更少有把握嗎因為當然今年到現在到4月坦白說我們不用把握這兩個字我覺得我們會盡我們所能努力做但是都不讓你看喔我想這一個每一個死亡人數都代表一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.868 |
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133.241 |
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一個讓人家非常傷心難過的一個家庭然後南東木市去年把把這個營造營造業墜落打幾年那目標是比往前一年要減少30%的這個墜落之災然後結果到去年9月光營造業就墜落66人也是這個 |
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142.502 |
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158.515 |
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全年度更高達148人整個打擊計畫是提早破功的那當時何前部長還講說要達到這個目標確實有困難你們自己訂目標你們自己訂了叫做營造業最弱打擊年結果跟我講說困難對外講說困難我為什麼要提醒這個事情你們還有另外一個目標2030年植栽要減半對不對 |
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171.605 |
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195.248 |
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會不會現在提早破功會不會就像何前部長講的現在要提早跟我講說困難我們這些目標其實坦白說都是當初定定是要我覺得包括是定一個我覺得希望能夠更符合而且更進步的目標那2030的這個目標我想我們現在是我還是會說我們必須全力以赴 |
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196.329 |
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224.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我知道剛剛你也答詢說當然目標除此之外還要好的方法嘛對不對那這個方法非常重要但是你們的方法不能只有剩下只有修治安法嘛是因為剛剛很多委員的垂詢嘛很多的面向但是我坦白講我看部長跟署長還有甚至於那個國土署的副總統在答詢的時候好像公共工程比較可以去去test到那其他四部門的幾乎根本就是無從著力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
243.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那等於你把這個目標整體掛在一起這邊完全沒有辦法有任何的有效方法去做處理甚至連方法都沒有的情況之下那你當然不可能去達標啊你不可能去達標怎麼會設定2030年要減半這個就很矛盾嘛 很衝突嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
270.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而且我剛剛在廁所遇到署長跟署長講說這個報告是誰寫的你們要公布這個報告署長跟我講說是他寫的然後整體focus還是在營造這個換籌當然有講說整體比例還有個2%等等等數之類但是那個樣態真的非常多我們雲林連飼料廠就可以墜落然後死傷嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
273.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
294.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不只啦 剛剛林委員特別提到這個冷氣的施工人員也不只啊 也廣告業者啊反正怎麼講 那個樣態面向是非常非常多當然你可以講比例啦營造業的比例 建商的比例是最高的 是沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
323.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
但是不能因為這個最高的其他的我們就忽略嘛各位可以看你把這個主要的這個這個類別可以把它降下來當然有效的會去呈現在你想要達到這個目標啦這也是也不為過嘛這是方式之一嘛但是你看喔我們113年可以降到287是什麼原因就你們要知道啊主要是什麼原因回到剛才那個表格 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
325.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
結果中到13死亡人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
355.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
跟委員報告我們不會只有說這個在治安法修法前我們還是有很多這個減災的策略在推動包括加強勞檢或是說這個辦理相關的第一場作業的工作我知道啦 知道這個都有在做啦但是做得到不到位嘛是不是有需要再做快速的調整嘛是不是要擴及的面向擴及的職業肥是不是要再增加嘛 對不對這剛才部長也都有答覆嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
355.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
359.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我先請教醫生為什麼你們可以撿到287?主要原因是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
361.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
387.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實還有一部分就勞檢以外其實各部會一起幫忙也是蠻重要的剛剛委員有提到我們不管是交通部、內政部、經濟部這個部分我們都一起來合作怎麼樣去大家所管的事業裡面去將要求這個防稅的一個處理所以這個部分跟委員報我們的面向應該是蠻多面向的那至於說287人的部分應該是營造業有檢疫部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
388.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
402.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
為什麼營造業會減一部分主要的原因剛剛我也知道我們在去年就是營造業的最多打擊年所以我們是動用的是營造業的最多打擊還是中央政策打防你看啦自己有把這個目標降下來不曉得什麼原因降下來我就覺得會 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
419.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
432.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這樣你們的方法是很自己都沒有把握的方法然後去形成一個方法然後再請教你為什麼可以降下來又講得不是很精準你們這個方法顯然就不是還有一個好方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
433.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
445.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
跟委員說明我同意委員剛才說就是說這不是只是修法的問題因為土法不足以自行所以我們其實可能也看到這裡面會有很多是法規的落實的程度的問題那 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
448.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
462.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這也包括比方說這段時間跟署裡面我們一直在檢討跟討論剛才說停復工的這個做法裡面是不是有更多如果未來要復工的話他必須要擔負起更多比方說他是一個系統性的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
463.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
490.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以這是在做法上面如果被停工的廠商他就要擔負起更高的成本才能夠復工的話他也會更加的小心我們也在這個方面去做檢討所以幾個部分我們都在檢討希望能夠更加的落實這些相關的法規部長你答問我這是剛剛李委員問的另外一個問題當然停工的樣態狀況是不一啦不可能說去取得一個平均值嘛所以剛剛你們沒辦法回答我也能夠理解嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
491.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我現在講的說,你113可以降到287,主要原因是什麼?你這樣打護我,雖然這樣打護我是很沒有把握的打護,也是自己沒有去掌握嘛。去年雖然沒有這個疫情啦,但央行有祭出這史上最狠的打房政策啦。讓房地產的市場又有了改變嘛,可以看一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
513.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後今年狀況也沒有改變手機在全國的新屋推有327萬件是歷史的新低啦其實今年4月齁 職災死亡人數是70人責任署目前是有樂觀推估啦今年職災死亡人數有機會再減少這是你們的資料喔但是我現在最擔心的一個狀況等到黃石祐回溫 加班趕工的亂象會不會再全部出現就跟剛才111年的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
549.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
又到最高的這樣的一個是不是最高我也不曉得所以當建商業者只顧著把落後的進度再補回來會不會又牢計法、治安法又放在一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
573.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那職災人數就再往上回升這確實是我們要非常小心的一個因素所以部長這個絕對要去考量到我們勞工部部長指揮今年的職災人數應該會再下降那如果真的是明年的市場上的回溫你要如何防禦相關的業者把勞工的命當成耗材再使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
574.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
591.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟我們說明我們當然不會把勞工的命當耗材但是我們確實有三餐我們是說你老實說相關的一些業者嘛因為他要刮工嘛 手工對 沒錯我們確實看到當業者越趕工的狀況的時候其實他的相關的這個安全衛生其實做的就會這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
593.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
620.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
可能常常就會出漏所以跟趕工跟工程這個工地的趕工的這個狀態其實是有一些相關的這也是我們要非常非常小心我們也在跟治安署其實在討論這部分必須面對跟如果有這個狀況的話我們就要更強力的方式下場去介入好我最後一個問題當然不是只有歇華還有是要做勞動檢查嘛是對不對那可以看一下3月27 治安省你們自己換了新聞治安署北中南同步勞檢全台開滑1223萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
623.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
651.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
然後在這次的327大老前 差了82個工地總計違反256項 列定停工28處董事長今天我就不再贅述了看起來好像划得很重 你再看力竊的這個划款這是113年 329 1040 你還沒有破前年再來就變成936 再來就變成985 再來就往下降了這是什麼數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
654.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
674.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就是說如果今天治安署的全國勞檢有效你要去怎麼解釋去年11月的774萬今年怎麼結果反而反彈到又回到去年同期的1000多萬那你治安署跟六都的勞政機關去勞檢請教一下那一般縣市勒是完全不干他們的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
677.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
704.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
跟委員報告那個整個罰款的金額他是因為那一次的整個全國的檢查的工地工地數你們哪一次不是全國的檢查是由首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關一起有首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關就會把這個罰款金額查獲的委員勞檢的件數提高只要不是首長不是各縣市的主管就是要偏低 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
706.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
734.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這是什麼邏輯跟委員不是這個意思是說剛剛委員現在秀的這個部分是我們有這個帶隊去做的這個同步勞檢那實際上我們去年整個勞檢裁罰金額也達到五億元不是說這個是當天這個是當天我們的首長帶隊的時候那一天統計出來的數字那你回答我到底還不是一樣只要當天是首長帶隊的那一天的比例就是偏高 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
736.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
764.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
只要不是首長帶隊的就不是這種就不是這種金額嗎你要打我應該是這樣嗎我聽懂委員的意思我是覺得說第一個這些相關的數字並不是說一定要罰到什麼一定要罰到上千萬或者是什麼你這個東西作為標準並不是用這個來作為要求那首長帶隊去勞檢這比較代表的是要表達一個對於這個工地勞安狀況的重視它的意義比較是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
764.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
786.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
倒不是說一定說我們只要首長帶隊這就一定要罰到上千萬其實倒也不是這個意思可是我覺得表達重視那最重要的事情還是是這個勞動檢查能不能落實到每一天然後把該檢查的部分給檢查出來該罰的部分要罰出來我覺得這部分才是我覺得這是我們要去努力的目標好 我要突顯這個問題是因為3月19號我也在這個委員會質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
789.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
806.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我一直提醒勞檢人力是不足然後勞檢不是只有你勞動部跟六都一般縣市勒?是一般縣市勒?也有不足的問題我的母縣、孕育縣你知道嗎剛剛在提到最弱的可以看一下110人就10個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
809.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
821.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
三人是墜落的什麼業務代查啦齁112人9人有6人墜落5人是營造1人是製造113人12人5人墜落2人是營造3人是製造這是近8年最高的其中一個是飼料廠飼料廠喔另外一個是在食品廠然後你們的報告是說他因為中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
836.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
850.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
它是墜落 它是滑落到那個有早期的地方它如果今天不掉下去沒有這回事啊它也不會中毒啊那這個歸類在墜落還是歸類在中毒但是你們把它歸類在中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
852.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
878.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不是這樣啊所以我就跟你講這種墜落在工地的範疇裡面在它實際上在操作的範圍裡面它的墜落的樣態絕對不只營造業啦很多很多的業別沒什麼樣態不一樣我希望你們的你們那個報告可能要再要再詳細精準一些好不好那我當然我還是會強調說回歸到營造業當然它的比例是最高的我們的方法如果用對 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
879.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
889.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
它可以讓整體的墜落導致死亡人數下降對你整體要達到這個目標當然有幫助嘛但是你也不能輸其他的業別啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
891.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
900.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我們要表達是這樣子嗎是不是請在一個詳細的一個各個樣態各個評估的這樣的狀態的資料給委內做一個參考還有方法應對的方法謝謝 |