| IVOD_ID |
160787 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160787 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-19-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T11:01:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T11:16:48+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423690cec3567f0b7c1b43c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f882f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:01:53 - 11:16:48 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查：
一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。
三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。
五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。
七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。
十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。
二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。
二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。
二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。
二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。
二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。
二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。
二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
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好來請保證慢慢喝 |
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我們現在繼續把同基層同聲明的農民倒三天我今天要跟你討論的是漁電共生的大漏洞我在三個地方問你這個漁電共生的事情漁電共生這段時間出了很多問題包括下面被埋的那個什麼爐渣啦廢土啦然後慢慢要去做一些改善可是我發現更多的陳情有一個大的問題就是那個覆蓋力的問題 |
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62.369 |
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76.68 |
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我三位都有問你嘛,你做了這個回答嘛,你看一下那個字幕,你說漁電共生的基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%嘛,然後包括漁種你都有講嘛,我現在很明確的,這個40%應該是漁溫的40%對不對?他是設施容許裡面那個土地的那個40% |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.055 |
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110.809 |
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這個容許它身體容許面積的這個分母到底是餘溫的40還是這個所有土地的40不是它土地它是容許是針對土地面積它這塊土地面積的容許那那塊土地面積它可能只有一小部分做餘溫喔那不一定所以我們的容許是用土地的面積的40%現在通通的問題就是很多地方餘溫上面蓋了滿滿的這個光電板嘛 |
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114.131 |
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141.579 |
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對不對啊現在就是 現在市民說這樣魚子吃不完嘛 對不對那你3月26號你給我的答詢是來來保定來來你看你 20百個你的答詢是這樣子你說要有陽光照射嘛 對不對所以你說有40%的覆蓋那你60%可以陽光可以進來嘛 對不對可是現在問題出在什麼地方現在全國很多地方出現了一個很大的問題是餘溫百分之百都被蓋滿了 |
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142.847 |
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151.82 |
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那就沒有達到你剛剛講的這個你前面會跟他說的40的40的覆蓋60可以射進來對不對那你如果百分之百把餘溫全部都蓋住了 |
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152.842 |
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170.94 |
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哇 那就是零啦 對不對 我要跟你們報告我們的漁電工程有兩類一類是室內養殖型的它的覆蓋率跟我剛才講的40%是戶外的部分所以這兩個是不大一樣的我們先來談戶外 我們今天就鎖定戶外戶外就是應該 戶外其實剛才你說的就是 移溫 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
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203.82 |
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宜溫不是百分之百蓋住嘛對不對至少是百分之四十嘛對不對這樣百分之六十有陽光可以射進來嘛其實你根據的這是有科學根據嘛你根據的就是水勢守的這個2018年的這個漁電共生的模擬試驗嘛對不對所以你是有根據的嘛可是現在問題來了來我給你看這個圖來你看這個來那個你看左邊這就是宜溫啦對不對大到八八八 |
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204.91 |
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215.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這是幾%這是40%嗎部長我甚至調那個空照圖給你看右邊這個就是宜溫電瓶全部都是光電板所以跟部長還有你水刺手當初做的這個實驗是不一樣的喔對不對我再給你看下一張這是一個暗場來下一張這個暗場也一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
233.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
261.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這兩個案場都是在疑問上面蓋了百分之百那這個違反了違反你的理解也違反了水事所當初做的這個結論這個就是我自己的鄉親啊他們一直在陳情啊其實保定你也很盡心盡力啦我聽各位問你的時候有一家不是被球場的異議對不對後來我們去努力讓他可以和解嘛現在在和解中這個就是我剛剛講的其中一個案場 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
263.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
284.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他被光電裂折就是這樣搞搞到根本就沒辦法沒辦法再種魚電有沒有生出來不曉得可是魚死了嘛魚電共生結果魚還不曉得有沒有這個魚就死掉了這個就是現在鄉村裡面整個台南、嘉義很多地方碰到的這個悲劇好那你有努力了你這個案子有要他們去和解了可是這個問題沒有解開 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
285.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
303.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不過我想第一個我必須誠實跟委員說明用這樣的圖我沒辦法判斷因為在有一些土地它是地層下陷於不利耕作區它也許也有從事養殖的行為但是那時候的容許跟你地面的或是室內的是不一樣的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
304.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
328.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那以農業部的立場,我們一定是要先確保養殖能夠成功也是事實,然後光電才是加值的部分那如果有不法的部分,我想都應該去查處啦,對柏定,我剛跟你看的就是,左邊這個是死景圖嘛,這個是空照圖嘛我進一步再把這個地幕啊,調出來給你看,來下一張看下一張,你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
333.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
352.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這是整個暗場這是台灣第一個魚店共生的第一個模範區示範區也是第一個暗場結果有兩個場來陳情碰到一個大的問題右下角這個就是上次我一直問你的你把前面都蓋住了魚都死掉就沒辦法養殖啊所以漁民就抗議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
354.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
372.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
結果開發商、供電商怎麼說我就求償你一億那我們有努力了嘛現在已經和解了可是和解還是要現在進行試喔左上角那個更可憐我現在跟你講左上角你看上面畫的供電板這就百分之百都覆蓋了啦你從地幕我剛剛講空照圖這個從地幕都很清楚左上角發生了什麼事情移民工 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
375.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
391.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你台元立國營事業啊你還開口啊我就同意你來做光電啊結果轉了好幾手弄到後來台泥變成台泥光電去了他左上角蓋出什麼也是百分之百結果那個農夫一直抗爭到後來就腦中風了兒子把工作丟下回去照顧爸爸到現在還在抗爭這兩個都是很大悲劇一個被酋長以疫 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
423.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
一個家裡面生活陷入困頓不只沒辦法繼續在養魚爸爸腦中風 現在躺在家裡兒子現在在抗爭喔就在懲刑 那原因就是初老剛剛跟你討論的因為你們在法令的這個解釋上面讓光電業者去餘溫上面蓋了百分之百的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
424.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
442.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
光電板那這個要不要處理不過我還是跟委員說明您這樣我沒辦法判斷因為光電的覆蓋率會因為你是農變的農地變更是一件事情然後你做室內的或是做戶外的那我在這邊有個數據可以跟委員報告就是我們也要求了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
443.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
465.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
各縣市有做光電廠去做盤查去做清查有沒有不合法的地方有沒有不養魚的現在已經清查了122場那其中完全合格的大概是將近37場到40場之間所以表示還有很大部分是不符合相關的規範正在改善中啦所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
466.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
492.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我也必須認同就是說的確有一些不合法的這項的光電板但是我們會要求地方政府去做一個有效的查核甚至於我們也希望說如果他沒有真正從事農業的漁業經營的話他就應該斷電啦就是讓他的電不再輸送啦如果讓他電繼續輸送他不斷的在改善那你就沒完沒了啦就是我想我們農業部的立場是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
492.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我聽你很棒 你也承認說有部分是有問題嘛那你要去把它清查清楚至少這兩個地方要去清查清楚對 這個我想我們後續如果有資訊我們可以了解如果你去看了 確定是老蔣我已經給你很明確了空照圖也給你 地幕圖也給你 實景都給你的好 那你要更明確請最近就趕快去看這兩個地方好不好是那如果是確定你確認是我剛剛講的百分之百上面移運都蓋了這個百分之百的光電板那這個就不行囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
520.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
530.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
如果它是地面型的,它絕對不行啊對啦,室外又是地面型的嘛,就是魚死地面嘛來,再看另外一個,剛才這兩個是家機,這張是台南的,來,看一看一樣,地面大到密密麻麻,全部都是光電板,也是百分之百你是農業專家,你覺得這個光電發電之後,會比較容易起火嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
545.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
553.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個有餘電共生嗎?還是變生了餘死掉了?這個你的專業判斷,這也太奇妙了我如果全都看這張圖的話,我覺得下面是沒有什麼養啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
558.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
阿他怎麼可以發電可以通過你們這個許可還繼續在發電不是 我要跟委員報告齁我們農業部是針對他的經營計畫書裡面我們做容許那後續都是地方政府在處理的那我們當然會有一些指引跟規範去要求所以像類似有這樣的一個案場的時候我們都會要求地方政府要去嚴查這個才能夠確保 我在這看這用常識不要說你專業常識看就知道 地面都扶貧阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
589.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
616.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
都是扶貧啊這個裡面如果有魚的話,你就把那個扶貧吃掉嘛跟蜜蜜媽媽都是扶貧,表示你會比較沒魚嘛啊第一個是含養量一定很高嘛對不對?是這個根本沒辦法養魚啊所以它不叫魚墊公生它叫墊生的魚死掉了是不是?那這個,好部長所以我們今天有結論喔我至少講的,這個地步我會給你至少這三個地方你要去看過好不好?好那我做明確的,明確的這個三個具體的要求來,我們看起來應該有共識啦,第一類來,保定來 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
617.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
643.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你要明確去界定 餘電共生的這個覆蓋率現在光電一直跟你講 那個40%是全部的土地不是餘溫其實我們今天講的很清楚的 餘溫覆蓋不能超過40要有60讓陽光可以射進來 要不然就死掉了 不叫餘電共生覆蓋率 以餘溫為依據的話 不能夠超過40%要明定下來 不是以整體的暗場做計算這跌跌 對不對 反正這跌跌 做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
644.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
661.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們本來就這樣規定剛剛講的那個看的那個都是違規嘛不只要去看要去處理然後這個法令一定是要這個規定一定要去確定好第二個你統計一下一直到現場去喔統計一下現在有多少餘溫本身覆蓋率超過40%的一個月夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
663.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
674.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一個月給我一份報告,就是你持續去查嘛,我那三個地方都給你我先跟委員報告,就是我們要做這件事情我們一定發文給地方政府,地方政府去查明以後回報啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
675.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
703.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那這個部分我們會盡量在一個月能夠給委員一個答覆但是有時候會牽扯到地方政務的查核的時間所以我現在不敢保證說一定一個月他們一定給我因為有時候地方政務不給的時候我們也沒辦法你今天就會發函就對了啦 盡快我想今天 我們這個禮拜好不好這個禮拜我們發函給地方政務就要去查明這件事情很重要因為漁電共生是你的重要政策嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
704.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
715.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
阿現在一定又加速在推動 現在核電5月17號又停了一定又推得更急阿更急你已經發現有一些是違反你的規定了阿違反規定已經出現那麼多悲劇了我剛才說過 那真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
717.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
736.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個農夫,好好的本來過日子,結果聽信你國營事業、台研綠能,弄到後來腦中風,兒子還遲了公交回來照顧爸爸,現在繼續抗爭,趕快看,趕快幫他們解決問題,好不好?第三個,第三個就是我要講,要怎麼去幫忙呢?對於現行你去查過後,你有發現是超過40%的, |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
738.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
747.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個不合規定了嘛其實養不活就不是餘電共生了嘛可是你在外面提一個改善的計畫的時候你要原理這些移民現在是受害者 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
749.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
769.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不見得喔 不見得是受害者各式各樣 可是像我剛才說的那兩個都是嘛因為我現在沒辦法判斷喔因為漁電共生 一定是光電業者要不然就租地 然後由漁民負責養有的是什麼 純粹是由光電業者養所以它樣態非常複雜所以我現在沒辦法判斷說一定是漁民受害 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
770.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
789.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
部長我們把樣態集中一下我今天給你質詢的東西都是清清楚楚的第一個第一個就是在餘溫上面你本來說40%它蓋了百分之百到時候我都給你拿你去看嘛對不對第二個我今天質詢的是非常明確的當初餘溫不能夠超過百分之40是有科學根據的是你水勢所的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
810.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個在法規上已經很明確了而且你都漏食了嘛 對不對包括 如果養那四種魚你這邊都是有的嘛所以你要漏食這個嘛 好 OK你說有很多樣式嘛那如果是我剛剛講的把它凝聚是確實是違法的那OK 那我們就明確你去看過之後一個要清查嘛 對不對然後確定去看是有違法的你是不是要考慮一下怎麼去幫國賠或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
812.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
819.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個我沒辦法同意因為我現在完全不知道因為餘定工生他的彼此之間光定業者跟漁民之間的關係非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
821.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
848.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那有不同的樣態不見得是漁民是受害者這個有時候也是光電是受害者我們所瞭解的當然你要去關心嘛一電共生這幾天的農業部重要政策國家重要政策我聽得到他們之間的合約的關係這個合約的關係就回到合約去處理我們不能動不動就國賠所以我們事實上是有共識的去查然後確定如果是農民我們查了以後再看看說那個樣態怎麼樣再走下一步啦所以農民如果是受害我們就要幫他啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
850.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
867.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
農民如果是受害我們會來協助他看他怎麼去做後續的處理如果是受害者很明確的受害者我們會來協助來看怎麼樣去跟光電業者去做相關的處理我用簡短大概時間超過我用30秒跟你講對於那個40%那個事情我去查了資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
874.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
894.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你108年的3月6號本來講是宜溫的40%後來你再過了一個月啊過了一個月4月16號過了16號你又做了一個放寬你就要修回來好不好就確定是宜溫40%好不好好啦那個主席已經在講了OK那我們就說出來我們要照顧好移民然後把一個月內把他清出來好謝謝保定謝謝 |