| IVOD_ID |
160748 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160748 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-30T09:11:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-30T09:22:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:02 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423699ff47acb371395c98b6df88a6e7dffca04c4aea0d98bed81816541f3e3d245755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:11:26 - 09:22:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
5.766 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
明天就是五一勞動節去年的時候你代表民進黨黨團去參加勞工大遊行當時你有說要把勞工的聲音帶進行政部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
19.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
30.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
哪你知道一年後你現在就在行政部門而且你是最高這個主管勞工事務的一個最高機關勞動部的部長那我想先請教你你明天會出去面對廣大勞工的一個訴求嗎?跟回應嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
37.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
59.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我明天不會去遊行啦但是你會不會去面對他們的訴求但是其實勞工朋友提出來的一些訴求我想我們在部裡面都會討論而且認真的來去做思考這樣的意思說你了解他們的訴求是什麼嗎他們今年有七大訴求你知道他們的訴求是什麼嗎知道當然你知道他們的訴求知道講一兩個聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
80.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我可以跟你講全部第一個當然大家這次很重要的訴求是反霸凌然後反霸凌要保障的部分然後再來有包括大家期望其實很多老公朋友一直都期望有降低工時或者是國家的調整那也包括其實也希望有更多的老年的保障老年的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
80.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
103.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
謝謝部長 因為我那陣子你剛才想到我問你 你就都忘記了那今天你做了準備當然我們都知道但是你對這個訴求 你們有沒有開始討論一些想法呢 還是就是放著其實我們當然不會放著第一個是 就像這次 我想很多 我認為不只是勞工團體啦有很多勞工朋友現在都很關心霸凌的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
104.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
122.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們其實現在也是在治安法的修法上面其實放入了這個霸凌防治的專章那就是希望去回應其實這段時間社會對於霸凌議題的期待謝謝部長這個部分我們民眾黨也提出了一個專法出來了我們大概很努力要推動它 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
123.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
其實很多人都說換位置換腦袋但我覺得換位置換腦袋它是個負面說法其實換了位置你做事方法會不一樣但是我想有一些價值是不能改變的因為你現在從監督者變成行政者那你更有行政的權利去幫助你當年你的理想跟報復你承諾勞工對他們的承諾我想說你是不是同意這個說法你現在更有權利去幫助他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
177.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
行政方面的 當然是行政會有一些行政方面的空間像我只能監督勞動部但是我不能叫他一定要去做什麼我就沒有這個 所以你現在有這個權利囉那部長那我們來看一個事情這個其實我也是很這個不雙標的啦對我的母校母院台大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班醫院的調查表這個調查表在網路新聞媒體都看得到部長你看過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
198.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
很明顯的調查表裡面只有兩個選項他是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日還有另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日當天不到院工作因為他們很多人是這個老計法保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
199.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
223.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個選項等於是說你強迫他們就只能到院然後再來看看怎麼處理雖然台大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作來上班人才調查但是台大醫院工會講的不一樣他們做的調查是75.8%等於76%超過四分之三的他們的會員說他們根本沒有被告知就強迫排進去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
226.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
229.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
假設你是員工你對這個選項這個調查表你有什麼看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
230.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
253.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
跟委員報告其實在這個案件上我們有看到我自己也看了那個調查表那台大醫院狀況其實我們已經在4月28號的時候當天已經發函給台北市政府請他們的勞檢來協助瞭解狀況再來一個是我覺得很重要的是如果現在工會的陳情的內容確實的話那就台大醫院所製作的書表看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
274.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
應該有三個選項嘛是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法的所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施不是建議喔雖然衛福部也是管醫院但是這個就勞工的部分你是責任耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
276.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
300.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以我現在要說的是我們其實已經在4月28號已經發函要求特市政府做檢查第二個我剛才也說了如果就目前的這個書表的內容來看的話我自己也覺得恐怕是這個不容易讓勞工完整的表達不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法我想我自己也是認為是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
301.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
327.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那部長我也跟你講我在醫院工作的一輩子不要擔心總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成醫院不會因此而因為他們的權益而停止這個對外服務這部分當然陳委員比較有意見比較有經驗今天的主題你把這個勞動部去年2024我也不知道你上任沒有他把它去年定為營造業最弱打擊年他希望整個最弱死亡的人數營造業低於68人可是最後還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
335.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
85位勞工因墜落死亡就是去年的數字部長那你知不知道當初為什麼訂個68人呢雖然我知道你剛剛報告65不過媒體是寫68人但是相去不遠你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的為什麼會訂出這個人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
346.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
365.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
過去應該是因為就前三年的一些平均然後定了一個降低30%的目標那今年呢那個是過去定的那這一年呢你定了多少你的目標政策是多少人呢我們目前還是希望能夠做到這個目標那你這樣就停滯啊去年達不到那你今天就繼續你沒有想到要改進嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
368.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不敢把目標降的修正嗎?根文說明其實並不是不想改進我們其實很努力跟包括我們自然屬很多同仁都在進行改進但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化因為實際上面這個做法上還是要實施就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面盡量我們希望能夠在這個目標上面去做到但重點是方法上要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
393.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
410.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
更重要的狀況我們建議但是行政部門重點是方法上就像委員說的要有新的方法要有強化的做法結果墜落死了85人那你現在又說因為打不到所以不敢把這個標準再繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
411.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
432.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
做修正那就可以年復一年了在到達這個68年之前永遠不要修正啊我不是這個意思我的意思是說我們都希望能夠精進但精進的重點在於方法所以我們要有更強化的方法有些做法我們要做得更更到位甚至要有新的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
433.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
454.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
昨天的報告裡面唯一沒有包含的就是這個當然治安法是有規定僱主必須提供符合安全規定的衛生設備及措施防止墜落讓這個物體飛落等等會有崩壞之餘的一些場所引起的危害但是我看了一下其實整個罰則你今天沒有提到罰則的部分如果無人傷亡就罰3萬到30萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
457.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
466.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有人因此死亡是處三年以下有期徒刑或併科罰金30萬以下受傷人數在三個以上也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科18萬以下的罰金部長你覺得這樣罰則有辦法讓促使僱主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
472.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
496.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我們就是因為認為這個罰則太輕所以現在所以現在把這個罰則的提高放入了治安法的修法裡面我的意思是說你讓僱主覺得我要提升設備安全設備的措施成本可能比摔死一個人的30萬還要高耶所以你這樣子你這個有恫嚇力嗎所以營造業通常資本雄厚啊所以我們就是覺得罰則不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
498.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
519.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高就是希望能夠更加的落實相關的法規讓剛剛就像剛剛委員說的希望能夠讓營造業有那個被有恫嚇有恫嚇力你說有恫嚇力或者是他必須要去執行我聽你看你自己的數字齁這個違反這個治安法的法規齁你看越來越高2023年是2000多件2024年是又增加了幾百件 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
526.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
當然今年是現在還有一季的資料所以你看你是不是要更加用努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全因為不合格率越高他就是暗示風險就是一直存在甚至一直在提高難怪你的數字達不到標當然我覺得該檢討的部分有沒有做到位的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
547.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們其實會徹底檢討那很多事情大家都說你有什麼標準那我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家嘛那我想這個數字你知道吧部長你可不可以知道當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了我們有兩天天我們我國因為營造業的勞工最死的比率超過六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
564.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
581.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那日本是四成新加坡是不到三成那人家是怎麼做到的那右邊這個就是勞研所的研究左邊是個無法改變的事實目前就是這樣子沒有做好那右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並未針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練而且相關的課程時數不足更沒有實務的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
589.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
606.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
訓練課程這個研究有提到日本日本是因為這個日本大約四成靠近四成以及他們有將墜落預防的教育那種分為學科跟數科就是說這是知識的東西沒有數科是不行的數科就是實務的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
608.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
619.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在醫院醫學院的訓練也都是如此有知識的但是也有實習實際去操作的部分那這個部分那個而且勞工要受這個相關訓練的一些教育訓練都要相關要都要去做部長那你認為在高空的這麼危險的環境中勞工作的勞工怎麼樣訂立一個制度提供一個正確的公安跟知識跟這個技能部長您訂立要多努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
634.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
658.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為方法很具體嘛 就是沒有做的東西很具體嘛 還說你都沒報到謝謝委員建議其實這一次我們也是在職安法的修法裡面把其實過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下 這也造成很多在營建工地裡面的這個風險 包括墜落的風險我們也是把這些相關的責任的整合在這次修法裡面做了放入跟處理這樣子 請部長多費心謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳州長 |