| IVOD_ID |
160509 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160509 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T10:50:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T11:03:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc055f03f39af0a7576a01776dcf2b4a8ff9a3354dc8dbd3a62d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:50:20 - 11:03:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝周偉 有請我們法務部部長好 請部長中選會好 中選會 |
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委員早部長早還有我們中選會列席的一個官員今天我們召委排這個題目我倒覺得非常好非常好很多事情可以把它給講清楚但重點針對這一次我看全國各地好多地方在大罷免罷免憲法賦予老百姓這樣的一個權利憲法賦予老百姓的一個權利 |
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但是如果是犯罪的話那反而也是法律可以我們整個主管機關他要主動依法偵辦的這樣的一個責任在民主它並不是一個道具你說死人他當然是不能去連署那造假完以後再去裝傻這個就有點莫名其妙了我看現在有這麼多的一個連署案的一個 |
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造假案然後也已經我看現在幾件告發了41件41件告發了有的涉及到偽造甚至有的不乏出現冒用往生者簽名的荒謬的這樣的一個情節那我想本案最主要的一個發生的一個理由我相信 |
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99.395 |
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國民黨的委員在國民黨裡面多數比我們多了一席那再加台灣民眾黨那變成在國會就是多數那在政治攻防上到最後大家認為說老百姓受不了啦他想去發動這樣的一個罷免那當然是可以的是憲法賦予他的一個權利但是呢這個案子是怎麼來的呢大家再回想一下本案的一個癥結下一張我看一下就是說本來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
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在2025年3月17號的時候你看這個各大媒體就給你下個標尷尬了罷免案35比0國民黨慘被KO癥結啊整個社會會這麼紛亂就是從這邊來 |
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你本來要發動罷免 中國國民黨你都懶惰嘛你可以罷免啊當初我在這個地方我就警告過囉我說要發動大罷免到最後就會變成一個大告發這個跟公投案不太一樣公投案是大家成案以後大家來投來表達你自己的一個主張有人去抄抄抄抄都很有可能可是你這個罷免案涉及到一個國會議員的政治生命的一個生死他當然跟你拼了你用偽造的一個方式他當然要給你告發 |
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那在3月17號啊我看罷免案35比0 國民黨慘被KO以後呢國民黨在整個內部炸鍋了有要求朱立倫下台了 說你已經輸了三次了 |
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188.68 |
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208.131 |
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然後呢 這個國民黨的戰鬥欄的你看這個趙少康先生就說以霸制霸行動已經化為笑話了這當然都是業餘你這個朱立倫嘛甚至張雅中講說大罷免的戰略錯誤朱延長任期幾個月也沒有用國民黨自己內部的壓力炸鍋以後呢無所不用其極啊無所不用其極啊我跟部長報告以我們現在台東來看的話 |
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這種造假現在還在發生啊我們台東啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
223.388 |
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244.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
從長濱到成功然後在整個海岸線因為有廠商要去設置這個風電他就必須要先上環境部網站裡面去做一個預告然後呢我們台東所有的立委全部都跳出來反對跳出來反對喔那有人就很聰明就假借說反對風電然後拿出來就是連署書簽下去簽下去這就是連署罷免不是要簽反風電 |
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249.375 |
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所以這個罷免裡面啊 這個千奇百怪 無所不用其極我記得我禮拜一舉過例子啊 就是說我們在整個刑法第210條 偽造文書這個部分五年以下有嫉妒刑 對不對那刑法第277條 那傷害罪 就拿刀在街上這樣砍人連續砍 我舉的例子說連續砍五個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.649 |
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277.773 |
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再砍下去檢察官就受不了啦你要預防性當然到就會把他給羈押嘛這個都很合理嘛我再舉這個很淺顯的例子那你這種集團性的 你說一直讓你去偽造一直讓你去偽造 一直去偽造然後檢察官就說 啊我沒看見反正這政黨的事那我們要這個法律幹什麼所以我倒認為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.199 |
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307.369 |
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這個冤有頭債有主啊中國國民黨到現在還沒有反省啊什麼到衝了別檢以後還有檢察官辦人賴清德下台你說什麼笑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.956 |
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321.165 |
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你們都說這個中國國民黨這麼多人去偽造利用要罷免一個人自己懶惰不用工亂抄死人也抄進去應該是講說政黨的負責人下台這樣才對又不是賴清德下令說叫你中國國民黨就趕快用偽造的一個方式所以本席都認為這樣的法務部這一次一個偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不是說你們的職責所在,是你們不得不辦不對,你看看,你可以不辦這個是已經告發了一定要辦了嗎是啊,而且喔,還公訴罪咧他這個是,因為委員也是立法院中事,所以最近才修了選罷法九十八條之二嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
369.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
要遏止這種造假的這些不好的不法的行為更明確嘛然後就才不會腐蝕民主政治的根基嘛道也未必131條講的是在講說新舊法的適用的問題啦你說如果是98條之二的話那個過程要件跟214條過程要件那又不一樣囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
378.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
383.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那個選罷法98條之後的那個構成要件裡面那幾乎已經選罷法都已經變成危險犯了那個自身損害那個都全部拿掉了那可是呢 這因為在319之前這個案子就全部都適用舊法所以你當然要回歸到整個這整個刑法210條的一個規定還是用舊法嘛這個我就不在這邊做一個論斷但問題你們想想看啦我說這個問題嚴重性在什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
404.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們二十年前把連續犯我們以前在讀書的時候還有連續犯連續犯加重其刑二分之一後來大家就認為修法就認為好像在鼓勵犯罪可是重點是你像這樣這種情況今天偽造個十份明天再偽造個十份後天再偽造個十份一直這樣偽造下去我們連續犯已經刪掉了二十年前已經刪掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
433.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
459.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我保證我不是這樣說你說通通不用判這也好奇怪啊當然你說到最後有基督刑你說是15年最多加重只能到20年多數訴罪兵法了不起判到30年宣告30年可是重點是說這個對社會上來講的話如果我連續這樣不斷的去犯罪然後只是因為政黨不反省到最後大家把整個隊伍拉到北檢來這也好奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
461.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
490.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這也好奇怪,所以我請教中選會,中選會,好不好辦,就他們的管理一定要辦,是,地費你全部都刪除掉,我們要修憲,說人都不能罷免,斬草除根,不然就偽造文書的部分,全部都要抬掉,不可能嘛,不可能嘛,你們現在以現在來所謂的個案,是不是像各地建築都市裡面去告發? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們是統一向最高檢去告發統一向最高檢告發 對你如果是原住民的部分 我要特別來請教原住民他是全國的全國的 那你們到底要向哪一個地檢來告發我們也是向最高檢向最高檢喔 是是那裏面你們最高檢要怎麼發 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
512.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
533.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那個最高檢就把依照那個管轄權的那個就發交給各地檢署來偵辦因為那個最高檢是一個統合他是一個督導的一個督導的機關他是選罷的案件的督導機關所以他受理的他接到這些就會分給各地檢署可是幾乎每一個每一個各地檢署全部都有管轄權啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
534.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
557.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為它那個原住民的話你全國各縣市都有這部分它會由最高檢測最屬於管轄因素最多的地方來做一個管轄那就合理了 那就合理了那今天我請問警政署有沒有來警政署 啊 不好意思 警政署沒有來沒有來我就繼續問補廠 你有來來來來來補廠也看一看你給他看 我給你看一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
565.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
574.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個是 你們都有看嘛 那個豬肋龍我都長大了 我也看了幾十年了這都熟悉熟悉 平常不熟 剛才那個做布袋的 這些都弄回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
576.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
596.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我才會這樣 跑去北檢 警方七度舉牌那我們現在就是說 我們只要這種違法的集會遊行 倒也不是馬上就宣告他違法我們會警告他嘛 說你解散 解散就沒問題如果不是 我把你三次舉牌 命令你解散沒有 你就犯罪了 感謝你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
599.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
614.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
包委員 這個部分可以由現場的指揮官 按照現場的狀況來判斷是啦 留給你們一個判斷的空間是好事嘛 畢竟衝擊到整個社會秩序嘛那我再來看一下內府的 你們這是在走什麼啊這幾個人而已 你們自己走 你們的行為違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
622.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
631.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這樣是什麼意思 我就看不懂我就不曉得你們那個執法執法我們都一定尊重現場現場的指揮官但問題像這一種現在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
635.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
660.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
引起不必要的一個民怨那依法行政跟依法執法這當然都是公務體系的一個基本的一個原則啦那但是呢 我們是不是也應該去盤點喔就像整個全國集會遊行的一個執法的一個SOP啦你針對這些非禁制區本來在法院 在地檢署各法院這是法律明文規定 這是不可以讓集會遊行的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
663.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
687.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個案子因為一線的同仁 這個比較沒有經驗那這個部分警政署我們會來檢討 也會就以後相關的執法來訂出一個標準之後 然後也來做教育我要說的就是說像這種不是禁制區 靜態的小規模的你應該更要去研擬一致性的舉牌或者介入的一個標準你們這些都訓練到不夠清楚啦 但是你還縮長帶長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
690.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
708.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個就讓我覺得很莫名其妙除非那個地方是一個交通繁忙的一個要塞的地方說好多人要去上班啊你們在這個地方喊罷免影響到整個交通了我這個時候我如果警察沒有適度的去介入的話那反而是失職啊可是這就很明顯的你會覺得莫名其妙他如果站在店館這裡你就去放他照就好你就走一個白海大廈大廢周章我認為這個要檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
719.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
741.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個部分警政署會 我們會來做指引啦 我不認為那個所長這樣的起心動念是不對啦有人檢舉了嘛 因為我沒來了之後大家說全部都偏袒這些反對國民黨的人 這也不對執法當然要有一個一致性嘛 可是你這個有點讓人家感覺莫名其妙 死的人在那 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
745.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
765.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你這樣去就叫他解散 委員會遊行你在地檢署 人們走走的 因為他比較大咖比較大咖 這另外的一個考量也沒有不對不想讓他產生那麼大的社會的衝擊 可以接受跟兩鄉做比較的話 只要叫你走到後 會把你抓了啦這個我覺得要有一定的一個指引 好不好好 謝謝 |