| IVOD_ID |
160485 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160485 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-23T10:10:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-23T10:24:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/27ac2f54fdf75cc0b9e2c99e771bcdd84d63fb5309bb2e6387b5e96e7cd6ee726bec4195852848de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王育敏 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:10:53 - 10:24:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、財政部次長就「國家社會福利政策財源檢討及偏鄉兒童發展篩檢執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月23日及24日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
15.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
40.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員好部長好 部長你們今天排的這個專報是要檢討我們的社會福利的這個來源但是其中有一項很重要是跟長照相關的你們的報告孜孜未提都沒有提到跟長照相關的我就要問你這個長照之初我們看這個圖表長照之初你可以看到這近6年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
是成長了一倍從109年的416億到114年已經來到了879億這個成長的速度是非常快的加上今年已經正式邁入超高齡社會了老年人口已經總平均突破20%了那這麼強的一個基金的需求但是我們看到我們的基金來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
94.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個看起來是呈現一個不穩定的狀況113年他突然來到了1300億但是呢114年的預估又下降到758億那我要問這個部長的是在這樣的情況底下那我們的這個未來長照的基金裁員是不是呈現一個不穩定的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
118.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
謝謝委員關心我們長照所有的照顧的一個品質以及量能那我想以財源來講其實每年的已有都一直在都相當的增加譬如說113年我們的期末的基金已有有35% |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
所以基本上這樣的數字是不是我們請市長來回應一下好來委員我們每年幾乎從106年下半年這個基金成立之後那每年的這個基金的結餘都成長那平均大概都是接近三成以上那我就問你114年是會成長還是短促你的收支可以平衡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為委員剛剛關注的是說收入面好像沒有很顯著的成長那這個部分財政部當然比較採取比較這個穩健保守的一個預估啦那可是事實上114年財政部確實預估的是收入面是740幾億可是事實上到115年的預估就成長到1125 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
178.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那容我提醒你今年還有關稅的衝擊今天這個財政部是次長來 阮次長請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
184.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
市長為什麼你們今年對於長照裁員114年的預估是比較保守的最主要兩個原因第一個就是因為有20%因為它可以兩個用途一個是住宅政策一個就是我們這邊長照那114年我們目前這個行政院那邊是有20%是撥到住宅基金所以相對來講所以那金額就比較低一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
對所以這個對於長照基金來講他沒有辦法呈現一個穩定持續成長的狀態對吧你可以從1300億一直成長到2000億嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
224.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
你有把握嗎?因為長照財源的收入包括以正稅、菸稅、菸品健康福利捐還有就是房地合一稅然後我要問也是像今年這個整個川普他的高關稅的一個衝擊你們還能樂觀的預估今年還有這麼高的一個稅收嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
260.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個還要再觀察啦對啊所以你也沒有把握嘛對不對因為這個東西還要再跟美方再做好那我接下來要問你一個問題今天衛福部的報告裡面衛福部你們自己說社會福利基金不是穩定的裁員它不是由政府預算來支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
281.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
常會受限基金來源而影響其穩定性那同樣的問題我要請教長照基金他是一個穩定的裁員嗎他也一樣不是政府預算的指引他是來自稅收這個次長你可以回答嗎如果衛福部的書面報告他說社福基金不是穩定裁員請問長照基金他是一個穩定裁員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
282.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
310.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
當然目前長照的基金當然就三個三大部分剛才委員都已經提過嘛那當然這些稅收不管是哪一個稅務其實都很難是非常穩定啦有時候經濟好的時候它就往上它會浮動的嘛它會浮動 它會浮動的對 當然但是目前我們現在的這個長照這個長照的制度是採取稅收制我想基本上還是相對穩定啦因為相對穩定 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
311.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
它跟保險制比較起來哪一個比較穩定稅收跟保險可預估的保費跟稅收哪一個會穩定從你的財政專業角度來看待因為每個國家做法都不一樣有一些是用保險制有一些是稅收制那我們目前是採取稅收制可不可以雙軌並行 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
331.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
335.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
雖然我們並行國家也有這樣做但是這一部分可能要由衛福部這邊來做通盤的考量那你財政部的專業意見呢我就直接問市長一個問題如果未來我們老年人口持續增加失能需要支付的經費持續增加醫界已經講了你完整的覆蓋率大概是兩千億的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
349.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
373.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
以你現在的稅收了不起一千出頭如果要滿足兩千億的話你認為我們有沒有可能採取是稅收跟保險雙軌並進去補足另外將近一千億的缺口這個是可以評估啦可以討論啦因為這個東西沒有一個定論因為每一個國家都不一樣國情都不一樣所以這一部分是可以討論我們可以願意會同這個衛福部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
377.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我請財政部可以好好來研議好不好因為我們做所有的政策其實要看未來的五到十年不是只看當下那未來的這整個長照的資金的需求一定是越來越高所以在這樣一個情況底下我覺得台灣我們不能是只是說啊這個不同政黨之間的主張不一樣這個是沒有意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
410.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
而是說我們真的要照顧好所有未來的老年人口我們的財政如何穩定這是今天的專題嘛我們這些來源我們怎麼真正的穩定下來然後可以服務更多的人口我覺得這件事情是一個專業議題跟政治一點關係都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
413.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
426.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以我希望這個次長念用你的專業你們財政部好好的研議給一個中肯的建議好不好就未來的整個長照我們需要的如果是完整覆蓋兩千億這麼大規模的一個支出情況底下你們認為從穩定裁員的角度我們應該要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
430.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
443.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
是不是稅收制跟保險制可以雙軌並進因為即使是保險這個還有政府要自行負擔那就是稅收嘛那另外一部分來自保費我個人認為這樣子應該是相對會比較比現行的純稅收應該更穩定稅收你可以看到現在全國的經濟狀況這麼不穩定川普一聲令下整個大家都大亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
453.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
473.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那所以在這樣子 稅收無法穩定的狀況底下 你裁員不穩定 你就沒有辦法提供我們需要的長輩更好的服務嗎所以副會員剛才我也跟委員報告過了 基本上我們就是說會同這個衛福部這邊做通盤的人就是參考其他國家的做法 以及我們國際的 我們自己的狀況 我們做一個通盤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
476.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
478.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我想任何對於穩定長照財源的各種方案當然大家都可以來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
503.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
525.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個不是政黨的問題,而是說譬如說在八年前我開始擔任我承接了我們施昭薇的棒子在擔任這個議事公會理事長的時候我們就一直關注怎麼樣對長照這個部分來努力所以我們是非常開放的來你的態度也是開放的但是有一些可能要考慮的點是的確 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
543 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
不管是在醫界或者是在基本了解長照界他們也是比較擔心到我們現在的如果說落入像現在的全民健保當然有好處但是他怎麼樣避免當時全民健保 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
568.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
上路以後所造成的現在的問題這是要避免的啦所以包括譬如說你今天 但這個又不一樣喔親民健保是大家都用得到你這個可能老人 只有老人比較接近老人才用得到當然製毒會不一樣這個大家是人民性的感受所以你們應該要參照一下日本的做法我們來看看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
569.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
585.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他不會是全民健保百分之百的模式我們幾乎每一年都在跑日本看看他們的各種他要有新的要進一步去研議我想這個部長我要跟你講的就是說這一件事情的確是我們很多政策要看遠不是只是看眼下 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
585.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
606.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那所以未來的這個需求增加經費增加這個是必然人口增加這個大家都已經看得到趨勢所以我是很誠心的希望你們跟財政部就是撇開政黨之間的立場只有專業的立場對未來的長照應該要怎麼去研議包括你剛剛提到的問題我個人也覺得他跟全民健保是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
607.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
634.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
年齡不太可能是孩子一出生你就要他繳交這個是不合理的所以就是說怎麼樣去研議一個適當的方案那你越晚的時候其實越難啟動你的保費會越高我只能告訴你是這樣子一定是這樣子所以這個部分你們應該要盡早未雨綢繆這個是我給的建議另外一個也就是因為你們現在在經費上面可能你們要控制那個收入的平衡所以你們對於這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
635.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
居府團體還蠻嚴格的你們現在在這個長照幾乎辦法裡面你們裡面所提到第九條為什麼你們不參照消費者物價指數的成長率定期去檢討支付價格你們現在是推給團體推給地方主管機關說你如果要調高價格你自己要去精算 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
656.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
684.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
精算來告訴我那這個有居府團體拜會他說連這個資層會計師事務所都精算不出來他們怎麼精算他的意思就是說你們不應該去刁難這一些居府團體而是你們定期就有一個合理的去檢討的機制嘛中央是比較有量能的嘛坦白講我們現在這一些居府員五萬多名的居府員他還是扮演我們本土長照力量裡面很重要的一環不能去苛刻他們但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
686.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
692.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個有團體告訴我說你們竟然還私底下開會的時候告訴那些團體說你們對居福園太好了誰叫你們給那麼高我覺得這樣是不對的部長不可以是這樣子因為這一些團體他照顧好居福園居福園照顧好我們的長輩那我們的長照體系才能穩定下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
706.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
734.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那你不能因為說你現在為了量入為出然後苛刻經費然後這些居府團體說要提高經費的時候你們就說這個對居府員太好這個話傳出去這個是不好聽也不可以是這樣子我們就是要對居府員好讓這一些從事居家照顧的團體好我們的老人家才會好應該是這樣子吧 部長謝謝委員的指教我非常支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那個不管是醫護人員或者是照顧老人的這些記憶服務員其實都很辛苦我們自己都會有親身我們旁邊的人都會體會到他們的辛苦那我們絕對尤其政府的角度絕對是給他們想辦法給他們最好的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
754.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
769.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒錯我想這個部分如果說在所以這個我想我在這邊也特別跟基督團體的努力辛苦大家都是好朋友是那那個一樣我也是跟王委員一樣給他們最大的謝意跟敬意好 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
770.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
787.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那至於說他們的訴求我想我們都會你們去研議來調整好不好我覺得是很合理的訴求因為物價上漲各方面上漲你不能去苛刻他們說你們的一定要動漲或是設很高的門檻說你自己要精算精算報告我來看看我覺得這樣是為難他們不應該是這樣子的一個操作好不好好的謝謝部長謝謝王偉 |