IVOD_ID |
160430 |
IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160430 |
日期 |
2025-04-21 |
會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-9 |
會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
會議資料.屆 |
11 |
會議資料.會期 |
3 |
會議資料.會次 |
9 |
會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
影片種類 |
Clip |
開始時間 |
2025-04-21T10:43:54+08:00 |
結束時間 |
2025-04-21T11:05:50+08:00 |
影片長度 |
00:21:56 |
支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/16e1d9e54b37d4c897e751135d0e27f2d5119736a8127fe7d42ed77fd6a325e1e339ddae18a2dfb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
委員發言時間 |
10:43:54 - 11:05:50 |
會議時間 |
2025-04-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議(事由:邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭(股)之執行現況,並就共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制,提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告,並備質詢。) |
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臨近巡打 謝謝 |
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好 先就那個剛才主席所公布的事項感謝主席還有我們議事人員把之前就是有關國安會或國安會秘書長有沒有到立法院來備詢把它查得非常清楚已經讓我們的司法法制的委員應該充分的理解到 |
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34.042 |
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所以依照今天的狀況那麼即使沒有派人來但是完全沒有請假的動作這是完全的去漠視事實上也極為不尊重我們立法院以及司法法制委員會 |
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那我覺得確實應該予以譴責也希望即便是身為執政黨的委員因為過去確實有案例這麼長的時間也都是民進黨在執政過去的民進黨政府為什麼它可以有對立法院對於委員會有一個基本的尊重但是為什麼現在連基本的尊重都沒有連起價都沒有我覺得這個部分確實應該去予以譴責 |
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王委員報告一下在顧立雄擔任秘書長的時候他都會請假所以我們想說我們會再跟國安會報告所以請問一下顧立雄可以為什麼吳釗燮不可以吳釗燮比顧立雄更大嗎還是他心虛心虛這樣子不敢來也不做請假謝謝我們主席的說明主席我先請我們的法務部長跟 |
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108.689 |
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我們的調查局局長好 部長 局長在上週 其實震驚全社會就是有關於因為要偵查這個罷免包含一個當事人在現場 吳思堯委員跟吳佩奕委員而因此來搜索國民黨的台北市黨部 |
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那這部分剛才部長說是依法來做但是我想請教部長跟局長在我們的辦案的過程這些過程裡面有沒有司法濫權的問題有沒有打擊政敵的問題來 |
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因為我們的這個台北市黨部是在台北市的長春路中山區那正好是在本人的選區那結果在整個的搜索的過程裡面那麼因為雖然台北市黨部在這個長春路同一棟大樓裡面也有我們的中山大同區黨部在那邊辦公而且他是分開辦公非常明確的分開辦公 |
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結果在當天搜索的時候 竟然我們中山跟大同區黨部的負責人我們叫做執行長 他一樣被搜索不但被搜索整個的辦公室 而且還要求交出手機然後調查人員直接在那邊滑他的手機 滑了三四個小時 |
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我想請問 如果今天罷免吳思瑤是士林北投區罷免吳佩義是中正萬華區請問一下 跟中山大同黨不何干 |
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為什麼可以去搜索中山大同黨部的辦公室為什麼可以要求他交出手機在那邊滑了三四個小時然後再把這個手機交回給我們的這個黨部的區黨部的執行長請問一下有何關係而且這個關係是什麼呢本人正好是中山區啊 |
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269.589 |
transcript.whisperx[11].text |
然後我也是被罷免的對象所以我們整個中山區認為假所謂的搜索台北市黨部之名把根本不相關的中山區跟大同區黨部通通拿來搜索一番而且更過分的是最後還把中山區跟大同區黨部的黨員名冊帶走拿中山區大同區的黨員名冊幹什麼 |
transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.963 |
transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.133 |
transcript.whisperx[12].text |
中山區大同區的國民黨黨員可以罷免吳思瑤嗎可以罷免吳佩義嗎請問一下為什麼可以帶走完全不相干的資料部長 局長這個是合理的程序嗎這個是有在依法行政嗎 依法搜索嗎有嗎跟委員報告齁 |
transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.525 |
transcript.whisperx[13].end |
326.418 |
transcript.whisperx[13].text |
搜索一定是令狀主義就一定要法官核票的核准搜索票的這些的處所跟對象嗎對那所以這部分所以如果是中山區大同區他跟這兩個這兩個區域這一共四個行政區嘛完全沒有關係為什麼他的手機可以被搜索有沒有關係是個案的判斷認定那這部分因為我可以這樣認定嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[14].start |
327.739 |
transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.104 |
transcript.whisperx[14].text |
可以這樣認定嗎你去搜索到所有各縣市你通通可以搜索嗎那是法院核票的喔 |
transcript.whisperx[15].start |
338.634 |
transcript.whisperx[15].end |
363.987 |
transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這不是說我們剪掉要去哪裡說就哪裡說他到那邊說明知那個是中山大同區黨舖明知他的業務跟那個沒有相關可以拿出手機來嗎我想請問一下部長局長今天你只要別人我正好在那邊我正好在那邊辦公可是我跟這些業務完全沒有關係你可以要求我交出手機嗎你可以隨便來看我手機的內容嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[16].start |
366.735 |
transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.5 |
transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我直接說我們這個黨部區黨部主委他只有浮選我的資料他只有浮選我的資料請問一下跟罷免吳四堯跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你們這不是在打擊政敵嗎這個是 |
transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.045 |
transcript.whisperx[17].end |
406.773 |
transcript.whisperx[17].text |
依法來處理的 還叫依法處理 依法到這種地步 依法來打擊陣敵嗎而且跟委員報告 我對各案的說索票 可是你說索票他可以要求現場的人把他交出手機讓他看手機的內容嗎 可不可以 可不可以 來告訴我這個是要各案來認定嘛 那個就是要法院的一個說索法院說索票沒有包含中山區黨部 沒有包含大同區黨部啊可以嗎 那是一個統一訴訟 它是以訴索嘛 |
transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.267 |
transcript.whisperx[18].end |
434.473 |
transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可是他不同辦公嘛你知道現在有很多大家共享辦公室多的咧你知道在民間有多少共享辦公室可能ABCDE的公司都共享一個辦公室你搜索那個辦公室你要辦A公司你可以要B公司C公司的人員把他資料交出來把他手機交出來可不可以可不可以那這有沒有濫權問題 有沒有 |
transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.634 |
transcript.whisperx[19].end |
465.809 |
transcript.whisperx[19].text |
既然法官都核准搜索票可以搜索的處所所以這次部長告訴我今天你要辦士林北投區的罷免案辦中正萬華區的罷免案但是你可以搜索完全無關的中山區跟大同區的黨部可以要求這個黨部負責人交出手機可以直接帶走中山區跟大同區黨部的名冊可以是不是你告訴我是不是可以 按照你這樣講可以嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[20].start |
467.518 |
transcript.whisperx[20].end |
483.834 |
transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個是個案我不表示意見 那我想 我相信檢察官就是依法來執行搜索嘛有在依法嗎 好 再來看好 再來看 我跟你講 你們這一陣子無法無天來 在高雄 高雄穿著黑衣便服的檢調人員到了豐山工協市場去連署站 要求把現場工作人員帶走 |
transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.66 |
transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.34 |
transcript.whisperx[21].text |
然後要求 就說 你有沒有搜索票呢沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走沒有拿搜索票 就要把人帶走好 請問一下 這個是合法的執法的程序嗎沒有拿搜索票 去連署站 要求把人帶走 可以嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[22].start |
513.197 |
transcript.whisperx[22].end |
531.346 |
transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個部分是我想委員提到的是媒體的報導那現場的狀況我想那個當天那個甲官也有聲明那事實的狀況是他去找他這個受搜索人已經聯絡他的太太他說他太太在那個連署站所以我們的同仁到那個連署站去找他太太 |
transcript.whisperx[23].start |
533.487 |
transcript.whisperx[23].end |
559.504 |
transcript.whisperx[23].text |
重點他拿了搜索票嗎有搜索票已經這個受搜索人同意到他家去搜索但是鑰匙在他太太身上他太太當時所以他就可以把他太太帶走沒有他他太太是被搜索的人嗎受搜索人說去找他太太拿鑰匙回來開門這是受搜索人同意的所以我們的同仁只是到那個受搜索人可以同意他太太可以把他太太帶走嗎我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我們沒有說要把他太太帶走我告訴你我還有 |
transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.006 |
transcript.whisperx[24].end |
569.374 |
transcript.whisperx[24].text |
還有人跟我反應就是因為他們在現場本來他要去連署那既然呢 跟他人員跟他講說你下午再來下午再來有這樣子嗎 跑到人家的連鎖站到那邊去要求帶人走然後要去連署的人說你下午再來 |
transcript.whisperx[25].start |
582.967 |
transcript.whisperx[25].end |
588.892 |
transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這不叫司法干預 什麼叫做司法干預再來 我們在網路上也流傳影片齁然後這個 霸雙節的 在高雄霸來來 把這個影片放一下 |
transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.44 |
transcript.whisperx[26].end |
621.392 |
transcript.whisperx[26].text |
政治干預司法司法干預罷免我徐尚賢高雄雙霸節錯在哪裡綠色恐怖是不要臉好 你看這影片其實這影片還沒有包括他被拖進去之後直接壓在地上壓制的這樣的一個動作我想請問一下 |
transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.194 |
transcript.whisperx[27].end |
626.855 |
transcript.whisperx[27].text |
罷免民進黨立委到底犯了什麼錯要在現場要靠手銬直接靠手銬 你看把人拿著他的腰帶然後抓進去之後直接被壓制在地上摩擦 |
transcript.whisperx[28].start |
642.145 |
transcript.whisperx[28].end |
661.394 |
transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們說現在是怎麼樣司法已經可以惡劣到這種地步嗎請問一下請問一下他犯了什麼罪來部長說他犯了什麼罪然後手銬然後進去直接被壓制在地上這個就是刑法那個偽造文書罪還有個資法對啊偽造文書罪個資法偽造文書罪是不是重罪 |
transcript.whisperx[29].start |
669.861 |
transcript.whisperx[29].end |
679.886 |
transcript.whisperx[29].text |
五年以下嘛對五年以下而且一罪一罰嘛不一罪一罰啊那就一罪一罰好你就要用一罪一罰所以你又在嚇唬人你要一罪一罰我待會給你看我待會給你看既然部長講成這樣嘴臉還這樣來來來我們再來看一罪一罰太好了來 |
transcript.whisperx[30].start |
690.43 |
transcript.whisperx[30].end |
713.663 |
transcript.whisperx[30].text |
中選會告發罷免林沛翔有116件的連署是偽造案是涉嫌偽造案好 你們也有辦因為大家現在都說怎麼辦完不辦綠呢好 你要辦綠啊可是很奇怪喔你辦綠不是說去辦他的這個罷團他也不是去辦領銜人也不是去辦幹部直接一大早6點辦 |
transcript.whisperx[31].start |
716.104 |
transcript.whisperx[31].end |
732.369 |
transcript.whisperx[31].text |
按鈴 按門鈴叮叮叮叮叮叫人家開門就是連署人請問一下以前有這樣辦法嗎以前有這樣直接去找連署人6點半猛按門鈴去問連署人你有沒有參與罷免有嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[32].start |
736.153 |
transcript.whisperx[32].end |
740.295 |
transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個是一個個案執行的一個 又來個案了齁 對啊 又來個案 每個都是個案了 這個合法的嘛 部長 這個是 這個是 投法你以前怎麼不辦啊投法你以前有辦嗎 你還好意思在這邊 你好意思在這邊講怎麼不辦 來 再來看再來看 我跟你講 你們哪選擇性辦辦在這邊 |
transcript.whisperx[33].start |
759.103 |
transcript.whisperx[33].end |
760.765 |
transcript.whisperx[33].text |
韓國瑜罷免案有沒有死亡連署有沒有偽造連署這個檢察官就已經釐清了 |
transcript.whisperx[34].start |
779.994 |
transcript.whisperx[34].end |
781.375 |
transcript.whisperx[34].text |
有沒有啊問你有沒有啊這個有連署人後來發生死亡的一個情形有嘛好請問你辦了沒有辦了對不對有辦了不起訴嘛我請問你一下有沒有約談 |
transcript.whisperx[35].start |
798.011 |
transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.192 |
transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有沒有搜索 有沒有生壓 有沒有嘛通通是按照委書或文書辦嘛還有個資嘛 涉及違反個資法辦嘛每個案件的情形都不一樣不一樣 當然不一樣 報名 韓國瑜不用不用搜索 不用約談 不用生壓 不一樣啊請問一下1300多個人 哪一個被搜索哪一個被按門鈴 哪一個被生壓來 你告訴我 |
transcript.whisperx[36].start |
825.716 |
transcript.whisperx[36].end |
852.456 |
transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個個案我不清楚那個個案的你又不清楚了 沒有辦嘛而且我直接告訴你當時的高檢署的檢察長被爆料其實當時的檢察官是要辦的 而且要起訴後來呢 這個檢察長不願意辦而且甚至中間還去換檢察官換了另外一個檢察官之後 才不起訴這也是個案喔按照部長的說法也是個案喔 |
transcript.whisperx[37].start |
853.317 |
transcript.whisperx[37].end |
859.76 |
transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不會辦 不能辦 不敢辦好 你以為只有這一個嗎 再來再來怎麼會不同呢 一樣是有偽造連署啊有什麼不同 部長 你在這邊凹吧 說謊吧哪有什麼不同 他是不是用偽造文書來辦 是不是 |
transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.81 |
transcript.whisperx[38].end |
887.534 |
transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這是兩個不同的案件當然一個罷免韓國瑜 一個罷免吳思堯啊不一樣啊 真不一樣啊韓國瑜就不要約談不能辦啊罷免吳思堯啊 給他辦到死啊好 再來連署 除了罷免之外總統 副總統選舉 如果你是無黨籍你是無黨籍 也需要連署好 5271名死人 |
transcript.whisperx[39].start |
905.083 |
transcript.whisperx[39].end |
916.112 |
transcript.whisperx[39].text |
連署 這個呢 這個告發其實是中選會告發的中選會在之後告發5271個 你說什麼韓國瑜之前啊那麼請問一下 5271名的偽造連署有辦嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[40].start |
928.76 |
transcript.whisperx[40].end |
953.26 |
transcript.whisperx[40].text |
2023年選舉有辦嗎這個檢控部就偵辦了嗎就釐清嘛全部簽結好問你啊有沒有有沒有叮叮叮6點半按鈴去詢問有沒有我們每個個案的執行方式都不一樣嘛好來我再問你有沒有約談這個每個案件有不一樣有約談又不一樣喔不一樣不一樣對對個案都不一樣好再問你有沒有搜索有沒有帶走名冊有沒有 |
transcript.whisperx[41].start |
958.487 |
transcript.whisperx[41].end |
964.536 |
transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我這邊辦公室要帶走我中山區的黨員名冊我請問你有沒有帶走名冊 有沒有 |
transcript.whisperx[42].start |
965.774 |
transcript.whisperx[42].end |
971.577 |
transcript.whisperx[42].text |
每個個案是不一樣 為什麼呢因為半韓國瑜不一樣 半郭台銘也不一樣啊因為當時民進黨希望郭台銘參與選舉啊郭台銘參與選舉才對賴清德的選舉有利啊因為他才會分國民黨的票啊所以最後全部簽結 雖然當時中選會確實是有去告發 |
transcript.whisperx[43].start |
989.304 |
transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1007.846 |
transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是呢沒有第一個沒有登門去按門鈴沒有去約談沒有去搜索沒有去生壓這就是部長口中所謂的個案所以你的最後的結論是什麼我告訴大家那個就叫做選擇性辦案 |
transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1009.69 |
transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1024.022 |
transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那個就叫做 雙標辦案 那個就叫做 辦藍不辦綠辦案這就叫做 依照上意來辦案 不叫做個案啊這個沒有這回事啦 這個證據嘛那部長你為什麼 你說 我當時沒有當部長 當時的部長真是莫名其妙五千多個人耶 為什麼你一個都沒有約談 |
transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1033.911 |
transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1054.065 |
transcript.whisperx[45].text |
蛤 你也不敢批評啊 對不對 OK啊 那個個案呢所以 我直接說 你們現在 所以部長你還好一直在這邊大言不慚依照個案來辦案 為什麼同樣的個案我問你 大家是不是都用偽造文書跟涉嫌違反個資法在辦 是不是 |
transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1056.271 |
transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1081.805 |
transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他如果有涉嫌的就是這兩個罪名嘛對嘛那要證明這兩個罪名的話一定要有證據嘛那一定要去有犯罪所以罷韓國瑜沒有證據罷郭台銘沒有證據對不對罷免其他人都沒有證據但是呢只要罷免民進黨立委都有證據你是這個意思吧我是尊重檢察的偵辦因為我不會過問你尊重我直接講好我最後一個問題 |
transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1083.566 |
transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1109.178 |
transcript.whisperx[47].text |
現在直接都說是由邢太昭下令來偵辦是不是邢太昭下令要偵辦邢總長下令偵辦這個我不清楚因為我不會去過問邢總長是如何的去處理因為他是檢查議題的檢察總長嘛那個個案的這部分我完全是尊重檢方檢察機關他們的對個案的一個處理那我只是一個正 |
transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1110.439 |
transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1125.856 |
transcript.whisperx[48].text |
局長都要為歷史留下記錄這些比如說你看辦郭台銘也好辦那個韓國瑜也好都會留下記錄未來你們也都會留下記錄我剛講了這麼多的案例你們還好意思跟我講依法偵辦 |
transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1127.615 |
transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1149.702 |
transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這不叫做 這個 我真的想請問 民進黨是不是要雙標如果今天你辦一個選區的選舉罷免然後可以去搜索另外一個選區人家黨部負責人的手機去滑人家的手機 他最後是還給他因為他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛他根本不能扣掉他手機嘛 |
transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1150.984 |
transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1161.906 |
transcript.whisperx[50].text |
他直接可以去要求人家解碼看人家手機那你們憑什麼把另外一個選區根本不搭搭選區的黨員名冊帶走呢帶走幹嘛 對付我王宏威嗎 |
transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1163.462 |
transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1181.857 |
transcript.whisperx[51].text |
對不對 我請問一下在整個的罷免案裡面你如果說今天罷王宏威團體你帶走中山區的黨部的這個黨員名冊還有道理在罷免士林北投 在罷免忠聖頑華請問一下跟中山區跟大同區到底有什麼關係 |
transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1183.311 |
transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1201.119 |
transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你們地檢署憑什麼帶走人家的黨員名冊來 局長你告訴我為什麼 憑什麼我想我們在執行當然都是依照法官所開出來的令狀那在那個同一個處所裡面其實我們也很難去區分那你把人家情書也帶走好了你把人家家書也帶走好了只要你覺得可以帶走就帶走啊那我請問黨員名冊不是那個選區的黨員名冊為什麼你們可以帶走 |
transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1213.345 |
transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1219.994 |
transcript.whisperx[53].text |
因為這個牽涉到具體的個案我想我不對個案的內容又來了 又是個案這種個案沒有問題嗎你們繼續濫權好了我剛講到這樣一個具體的事情 |
transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1226.929 |
transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1244.97 |
transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你們這樣檢察官可以如此的濫權對不對怎麼沒有濫權呢這什麼叫依法偵辦 依什麼法 依什麼法我請問一下我中山區黨部的這些負責人他跟這個罷免案 辦罷免無死案無配有什麼關係 |
transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1246.411 |
transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1252.313 |
transcript.whisperx[55].text |
什麼叫依法偵辦來 部長你敢這樣講我請問一下中山區的黨員中山區的幹部跟罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛有什麼關係你告訴我大同區的跟這兩個區有什麼關係你告訴我這個法官依照法官的合法的說法什麼叫依照法官你們難道現場不會判斷嗎現場不會判斷我告訴你現在真的很多公用辦公室按照你這種說法 |
transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1274.437 |
transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1292.25 |
transcript.whisperx[56].text |
以後大家非常恐怖啊公用辦公室你旁邊的跟你公用辦公室的人出事我通告被搜索啊可以這樣嗎我問你可不可以這是個案的又來個案了齁你拗不過就用個案啊我跟你講這就叫做司法濫權這就叫做斬豎陣敵不折不扣我請你們適可而止啊你不要以為人民不會憤怒啊 |
transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1304.295 |
transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1310.766 |
transcript.whisperx[57].text |
在這邊講什麼此言各案你們的個案就是你們的個案去整肅人家嘛不是這樣子嗎好 謝謝 |