| IVOD_ID |
160072 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160072 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-10T10:32:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-10T10:52:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/127fafa562dc9712a28751e7b82fef65803d2cc4ed6173071a30f584bceeba99b56b5c2703a0a28e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:32:40 - 10:52:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署、內政部警政署、內政部移民署、海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「法院作成『略式裁定』之依據、理由、法定程序、救濟方式，與科技設備監控處分變更、延長或撤銷之標準，並就執行現況，提供相關統計數據與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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麻煩法務部次長還有司法院副秘書長 |
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10.28 |
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委員好你好好謝謝兩位兩位早安我現在我們就直接提到因為我們今天的主題是蠻明確聚焦的所以我想說我的問題就很簡單啦我先請教一下司法院對於被告的電子監控不予延長的決定是不是需要下裁定麥克風要開謝謝 |
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36.636 |
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跟委員報告就是說因為那個電子監控他是要下期間的嘛那理論上如果說是期間已經到了之後他不去繼續的話是不用下那但是我現在講另一個情形就是說那你本來要下為什麼不下了所以通常他就會 |
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55.464 |
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就有些他就會用其他的 譬如說加了那個保證金 把你加保證金然後去替代那這個替代是刑事訴訟法116條之一他依那個第二項 這叫變更處分那如果是變更處分的話 他就必須要下裁定 |
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71.84 |
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謝謝複密複密我們講到一個完全的本案重點因為這個案子已經判決確定所以我們來討論本案我想不會有干預個案的問題對不對我先講這個免得有人誤會了第二個 複密剛講得非常的正確就是說如果期限已經到了當然沒有問題但是本案我們不管期限是不是已經到了但是法官他有下一個加保兩千萬 |
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97.811 |
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對 他等於是變更嘛所以這個東西是不是就是應該要以裁定為之並不是期限到 兩個是不一樣的概念 |
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107.547 |
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我們不針對這個個案我們就是說假如說有一個情形他就是去把它加保然後去不再繼續延長的話那這個依剛剛講的這是刑事訴訟法161-1第二項的變更處變更處分那依刑事訴訟法121條確實他就是應該要下那個好那我們如果說用通案的來看就是如果今天你是變更原來的 |
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135.663 |
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才決定嘛 就是提高的這個保證金的話其實它是要以一個裁定的方式為止我想這個從通案的角度來看是沒有問題所以其實我們都很清楚啦裁定大概我們依據那個訴訟法的規定其實它就是幾種嘛 用口頭宣示或是筆錄然後或者是說用書面嘛大概主要是這三種嘛 |
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157.009 |
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178.209 |
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對不對 就是刑訴的224條還有50條還有227條嘛我想說226跟227嘛我想這個非常的明確都有規範齁那但是呢像剛剛吳委員他講的非常的正確其實今天重點並不是說略是與否的問題而是說今天是到底這個裁定有沒有生效嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
178.689 |
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197.774 |
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因為法官雖然說他做的是一個劣勢劣勢裁定也不是說實務上沒有看過啦你很多積壓的處理他就是用劣勢裁定但是積壓的處理他這種劣勢裁定他至少會有一個譬如說當庭宣誓譬如說載名筆錄或者是送達等等這個方式嘛所以今天一定要有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
199.194 |
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216.594 |
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結束之後才算是生效譬如說以送達來說好了總是送達第一個第一位收受送達者這個才定才會對外發生效力請問複密症我剛剛講的有沒有問題我覺得您是食物專家所以您講的完全正確也是我們現在食物上在做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
217.434 |
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243.982 |
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所以說我想說本件的問題我覺得我們就跳脫所謂的略是與否的這個案其實這跟本案其實重點脫了化這個是化錯所以其實今天這個財令我們從頭到尾發現就是說他並沒有去踐行我們剛剛說的各種方式不管是口頭告知當事人或者是筆錄告那個記載或者是有送達都沒有嘛對不對我想說這個案子有這個問題啦 |
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245.902 |
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265.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以即使說就算說今天有一個書面裁定也不會說原本跟正本差了五個多月我想說我沒有看過這樣的裁定書或判決書五個多月是有一點誇張然後第二個就是說我也沒有聽說過請書記官製作原本這件事情不管院檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
266.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
279.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
原本基本上都是法官 檢察官所製作那署議官他是製作正本但是他不可能叫他去直接做原本去做裁定書或判決書吧還是複密您的想法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
282.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
305.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個個案我無從評論不是不是我不是說個案我現在說通案通案會請依規定就是那個刑事訴訟法相關的那個像五十條五十一五十五這些那個裁判說原本一定是由那個法院製作完然後簽名之後然後交給書記官製作正本對所以我剛剛講的就是這個對這是一個法定程序對不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
307.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
324.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
原本就是法官或檢察官所製作他不會由書記官來製作所以說之前說什麼書記官沒有製作原本這個其實這個說法是蠻奇怪所以說這個第一個原本正本製作日期差了五個多月這是蠻奇怪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
326.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
347.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那我們再看一下所以我覺得今天我開頭會講其實就是程序的問題這案子就是程序的問題那我覺得從去年到現在發生了很多事包括比如說高煌案的案子那個檢方那邊有中斷16分鐘的錄音這個程序就不對我不論這些人是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
348.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
372.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
構成犯罪 但程序就不對那譬如說柯文哲的案子偵查大公開啦然後起訴書穿插一些跟構成要件無關的事實啦而且比例非常的高嘛然後讓很多政論民主也可以拿去做文章或是說後來北檢發聲說你明明就是去醫院就訓但是你新聞稿前後兩次說的又不一樣所以其實這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
373.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
395.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
會讓我們感覺說那到底司法怎麼了因為我們以前就是覺得說司法人員他應該是他對於自己道德的操守要求是非常非常的高所以到底什麼時候發生連司法人員都帶頭出來去說謊或者是有一些很極少數的司法人員甚至配合的政治人物在那邊左右搖擺所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
398.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
418.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我比較難過的就是說司法要建立起人民的信任它要花上百年幾十年百年的時間但是你要摧毀它可能幾個案子幾個月就摧毀這是我最不願意見到今天變成這個樣子就像說我昨天在這邊問一個非常簡單的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
419.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
437.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
結果部長就是講了一堆根本無關的法條或是講公然侮辱跟誹謗其實那個就很奇怪然後陳廷長他也沒有回答我想說其實司法人員應該要有勇氣來去面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
438.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
455.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
任何權貴以及罪犯嘛就像很多人以前說警察官就提著人頭在辦案因為我們得罪的都是社會上面的黑道或者是權貴的人嘛那如果今天你在面對一個這麼簡單ABC的問題我國有無鼓吹戰爭罪你都不好意思講的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
456.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
470.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這樣我們對司法我們的信任度會真的會越來越低啦好那再來我想說這一次呢我們針對這個個案我們還發現一個狀況就是電話紀錄跟被抽換的問題從這個地方我們看到電話紀錄的抽換除了它增加了一個不予延長監控設備這個記載 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
484.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
496.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他檢查 他法官跟書記官還倒填了印章的日期我想這個司法院會認同這種事嗎這個章顯然是倒填的我想 請問複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
498.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
516.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個部分就是依行說法40條就是有關於這個那個公文書製作之後那個修改他事實上是有一定的嚴謹的那個程序那所以這一件我們先不談就是說那個內容的那個真實性與否就是這個程序上已經事實上是已經違反已經有違失了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
517.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
536.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以說當然你說公文書原來製作有誤然後後面要修正絕對不是不行但是我們要進行一定的程序更不可能發生說你直接抽換而且還把日期一張倒回去概用印章我想這個是非常明顯的錯誤而且法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
537.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
549.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
做這樣的事情其實是很不得理這就是在等於是欺騙了嘛等於是對外就是欺騙嘛你在3月14號月券的版本都還出現舊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
551.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
564.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
的那個電話紀錄單上面有舊的日期章結果你在3月20號月卷的時候它的版本變成另外一個版本那個印章再怎麼樣都是稻田回去蓋的你等於是在114年的3月20號 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
567.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
595.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
倒田回去蓋113年10月14號的印章你等於是倒田回去 這很不應該啦所以麻煩治療院這邊也要詳細的了解到底狀況是怎麼樣那再來我想請教一下就你們審理的期間呢 就是需不需要確確那個拒保這個處分呢 有沒有送達檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
597.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
613.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個東西你們到底有沒有控管因為檢察官總是收到他才能抗告嘛現在這一件的話他從頭到尾什麼都沒有那到底院方目前是怎麼樣控管這個動作就法官如果有裁定那他送達與否這個有沒有人在控管這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
618.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
620.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
有本職在記載是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
643.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
666.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有本職在記載這些東西嗎不然你會不會有漏送啊或等等的狀況發生都會有案件記錄就是有控管就對了就是個案裡頭在電腦裡頭他都會有一個塵埃那更可以去了解說本案根本沒有裁定如果像您說的只要有裁定我們就會追蹤他有沒有送達那如果說照這樣看的話本案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
666.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
684.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就是沒有裁定啊如果有裁定你們會追蹤後面有沒有送達但本案從頭到尾都沒有送達過所以回過頭來看根本就是沒有裁定我想沒有裁定是一個沒有做出裁定書對我想這是一個事實啊您懂我的意思嗎您說有裁定你們就會追蹤有沒有送達 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
685.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
704.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那這個本案自始至終都檢察官都沒有收到送達過那是不是根本就沒有裁定 嚴謹的講他們有做成這個合一體有做成的一個決定可是是把它寫在那個審理單上有這樣一個決定那只是這樣一個決定的話我們廣義也把它叫裁定那只是說他完全沒有做成那個裁定書去送達所以這個部分就是你們控管不到的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
710.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
732.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
因為他根本 他連寫都沒寫他就是沒有做成正式的那個裁定書啊 對好吧 那沒關係啦但是不管如何 我剛剛最一開始我已經提到裁定有三種那三種模式嘛 看起來都不是應該不會說記載在審理單就叫做裁定吧可以這麼說嗎可以說記載在審理單就是有裁定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
734.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
761.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個個案的決定因為可能還會有就是救濟跟那個的問題我想我們就不再回答那我想不管怎麼樣這些案子我們這樣看起來就是最近的譬如說朱國榮的案子還有中文字林秉文等等的這些案子其實就讓人民有個感覺就是好像權貴犯案都可以逍遙法外那我今天為什麼犯案會被押那就是因為我不是權貴所以我就有逃亡之虞所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
763.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
780.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
讓人民會感覺到到底法院本來應該所有的人在司法面前都是一視同仁那是不是在面對權貴的時候就完全不太一樣所以我想說在這次的案子裡面還是要麻煩司法院法務部這邊能夠想出一個對策不能讓這種狀況再發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
783.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
806.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那更何況 其實我們再參考一下中文字的案子前面那個紀法官 他多次對於這個被告他所提出來申請他希望出國等等的 他都拒絕那他其實他的裁定 我覺得我看完之後 我覺得他之前的裁定幾乎都可以當作教科書他寫得非常的完整 譬如說他有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
808.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
827.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
罪名非清然後原審判決很重還有他侵害的這些投資人的權益也很大還有他獲利非常的高等等的再加上這個人之前他有多次譬如說他有用假的資料想要出國或者是說他曾經也被通緝過 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
829.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
844.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這些等等的狀況 其實他都寫在他原本的裁定裡面他其實後面的法官很容易就可以依照前面紀法官他所調查的資料就知道這個人他有非常大的逃亡可能性那為什麼還會在之前有一次是律師出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
847.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
876.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
而說當作保證人那這個被告就可以出國去香港這個也很奇怪因為我以前審理案子的話如果這個被告他有這麼多的狀況我根本不敢讓他出境啊甚至他曾經被通緝過都會讓我不敢給他交保或者是不敢讓他出國的最主要原因那這個被告呢他獲利這麼高的情況下他之前有很多不良的對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
877.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
902.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不按期到庭等等他有不良的紀錄那為什麼還會讓他讓他後來還可以出國去開會還可以這個卸除他的電子監控設備這個都是我們覺得很難以想像的啦就以我自己的實務經驗我覺得這還難以想像好吧那但是呢法官總是獨立審判嘛那我就不多說好那我再請教司法院高院現在有幾個金融專庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
905.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
908.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
四庭請問一下這次這兩位大家認為有問題的法官他們還在金融專庭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
916.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
934.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那個目前還在那但是應該是會即將要做那個調整因為那個庭長他現在已經那個免件庭長了對是好那我們這都尊重司法院的決定好那我在這邊就跟那個複密這邊就是說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
935.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
952.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這個金融犯的防逃標準可能要麻煩司法院再訓練就是說我們對於法官我們不能以一句說司法獨立法官獨立審判所以我不能跟法官講什麼這個沒有錯這是對於個案嘛但是對於通案的教育訓練司法院真的還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
953.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
980.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對於這個金融庭的法官要跟他們再教育因為獲利高他本身他就有足夠的經濟能力在國外生活他就如果那個量刑的刑度又高他就有非常大在國外逃亡到國外生活的動機所以這部分要麻煩您就像我禮拜一的時候禮拜一我跟這個次長跟黃次長我們去那個士林地檢的二樓就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
982.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1006.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
科控中心我們去考察的時候其實我當時也有說希望司法院能夠提出這些通緝犯前三大逃跑的理由還有出境的前三大案有還有棄保的前三大案有還有人數各是什麼那天我有請司法院要準備這些資料其實我準備這個我並不是說我要拿來做什麼用而是我希望這個資料完整之後給基層法官去做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1007.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1030.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
有這些狀況前三大理由就是他們最有可能跑的我想這個我們就是要替人民做一件事情就是不能讓人民覺得權貴好像都有特權犯罪獲得很大利益之後就跑光光了那我們也希望說不要讓法官就是一直在象牙塔裡面沒有啦 就很多人民都覺得法官檢察官都活在象牙塔裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1035.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1049.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
法官論壇其實有人就抱怨很多法官論壇就提到這次他講的這個怎麼會是這個劣勢裁定的這個說法其實就是被法官在法官論壇上面已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1050.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1072.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是攻擊蠻多的那這個其實我剛剛也都有講啦我個人從頭到尾都不認為這個是劣勢裁定劣勢裁定有但是在我們實務來說幾乎都出現在羈押因為羈押常常是很晚嘛很晚的晚上所以他可能有時候會用劣勢裁定但是不管劣勢裁定正式裁定等等的一定會有送達的動作這個我想大家都沒有什麼爭議啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1075.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1096.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以就是最近有些法官在法官論壇上面其實就是有在抱怨那檢察官論壇裡面也是很多人在那邊講說最近北檢等等的做法其實讓很多非北檢或甚至北檢裡面的檢察官也都有不滿所以為什麼司法會走到今天連司法官 法官檢察官自己都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1098.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1121.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這些同事做法不可思議那就請大家要注意一下最後30秒我想說其實林三田教授跟陳定南這兩個是我一個是在學生時代對我最大啟發另外一個是在我出來當檢察官第一年的部長其實他們都告訴我們心中 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1123.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1137.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
黑白是非要放在前面立場放在後面我一直都這一輩子我都還是一直堅持堅守的這個信念那林三田的這本刑法通論啊他曾經對外說過說這通論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1140.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1168.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
書外皮是他設計的我想兩位一定都念過啦他說為什麼他設計這樣的外皮他的用色只有黑跟白因為他生前的時候講說他心中他對於法律以及對於這個社會運用法律的想法就是黑白而不是立場所以我很希望說我們全國的司法人員一定要記得這件事情像陳立南也是跟我們講啊心中是是非對錯而不是立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1170.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1193.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我出來第一年的時候在當一個基層的最菜鳥的檢察官的時候他就親口這樣跟我講然後學生時代的03年他也是這樣跟我們講結果到今天我們看到司法人員也開始學著騙人開始學著發一些前後不一致的新聞稿我想說這都是我們自己要檢討的啦那這部分我希望司法院以及法務部能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1195.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1214.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
很重視這個事情好不好就是說不管如何我們還是希望司法人員要當作人民最值得信賴的一群人絕對要記得法律跟制度一定要長治久安不能配合政客或執政者在搖擺好 謝謝兩位謝謝委員 |