| IVOD_ID |
160005 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160005 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T12:51:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T13:08:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce1706b3a76c10c24179a8b3a3b5782fdd5ac7c33fa410345692b622d999c34a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅智強 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:51:41 - 13:08:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席有請司法院陳庭長 法務部政部長然後陸委會梁副主委 以及內政部陳副署長我想先念一段陸配子女的話給各位聽一下 請問各位感受如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我母親從小教導我要愛台灣守護這片土地她來台三十多年奉公守法照顧家庭繳稅納保未曾有任何違法行為一生為家庭付出為社會安分守序如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求現今更無從補辦的文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
82.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身份失去他所屬家園的命運讓我們一家人痛心無助我也忍不住想問這真的是我們從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎我念這段話我想要請教在座的首長們 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
108.009 |
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真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情我想請教一下我們的司法院的陳廷長你也是一輩子的法律人你覺得這是你從小認識以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
138.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個一直都是我們追求的理念追求理念如果說您的父母跟他一樣被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求現今也無從補辦的文件如果交不出來他就要被趕出去 驅逐出境離開他的家園 離開他的家人請問你能接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
140.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
168.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我想我的感受可能會跟委員剛才念的那一個子女的心聲是一樣非常好謝謝你陳廷長我想請教鄭明謙部長請問將心比心如果說今天是我們的父母要他拿一個30年前這20年我知道政府也沒跟他要他補辦突然我們賴清德總統上來就要他補辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
170.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
193.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
補教啊然後他也無從再找到這些東西了可是你找不到就離開台灣為人子女你覺得你的心情會是什麼我想我是法務部長救法援華那這個也不是我本部全管的一個部份部長其實你的答案我都知道你從來就這樣學學成廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
197.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
226.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
作為法律人要有法律人的柔軟的心來我想請教請教我們的那個移民署的陳副署長請問如果你的父母被要求交這樣的一份文件他真的找不到啊三十年其實真的我覺得人之常情啊找不到是人之常情啊你覺得你身為子女看著父母親要被趕出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
228.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
253.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
你心中做何感想我們會很難過可是在我目前我剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導副署長我跟你講我能夠理解你在現在政府部門擔任事務官的為難所以我不會勉強你但你剛剛講的那句你會很難過我很感動也請部長好好聽一聽來請我們的副主委請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
258.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
282.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你的感受是什麼從我們陸委會的立場我會先確定說他所謂無法補辦是什麼意思因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的你們發了多少信出去要求他如果他是真的無法補辦經過我們的甄別真的無法補辦的話那我們絕對會保障他的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
287.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
311.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我問你 你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦就是大概一萬吧已經是接近無差別的一個要求沒有無差別所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎沒有無差別一萬份都被檢舉嗎病居的14萬人這一萬份是不是93年以前的大部分不止 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
314.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
338.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
一萬份欸所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情是一萬個家庭子女的心情沒關係啦 副主委我也知道 你是政務官啦所以你有為政策辯護的一個職責啦沒關係 我想請教你下一個問題我請教下一個問題三十年三十年 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
340.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
360.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不是三天 不是三個星期 不是三個月 不是三年 是三十年要你交三十年前的文件 要你自證去交三十年前的文件 交不出來就把你驅逐出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
361.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
388.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
驅逐離開台灣是這樣嗎不會的好謝謝你非常謝謝副主委現在我請我們烏魯佩今天聽聽就我們副主委今天被問出來我們不是叫你交三十年前的文件請副署長來而是三十年前你沒有去申請這份文件副署長謝謝你剛剛副主委講了交不出來也沒關係因為三十年前坦白講跟副署長講 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
390.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
416.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
真的 你一般人喔 不要用政治色彩我請所有的 我們的台灣民眾 以人人的角度出發你要人拿30年前從大陸拿文件出來有難度吧我不要講說不可能 我講有難度總是很公道吧所以在這裡跟委員報告因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾來 我問一下部長部長有難度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
424.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
436.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我沒有說不可能,我是有難度吧我是當然非常期盼他們能夠找出來,能夠在台灣安居樂業部長你又是,什麼叫期盼他能找出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
437.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
451.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我告訴你你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾這個不是我全管的當然我也是希望說我知道啦不是你全管的所以因為有主管機關在我現在請教你下一個問題我要請教我們的那個梁副主委是發了一萬多封通知要他們要交件是你剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
467.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
496.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我想請問為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這1萬多件通知出去老實講因為這個2004年到現在藍綠政黨轉換我也不清楚說到底為什麼以前沒有直行我跟你講為什麼陳水扁有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去馬英九有沒有發這1萬多封通知信出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
498.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
523.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你都跟我講你不知道不懂不了解因為任何做一個人以子女的心情來講蔡英文總統就知道你接近無差別一萬多分你不要跟我講是有差別接近無差別大規模有交的做這件事情的時候凡是有交文件的我們就不會發通知有請副署長有請副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
529.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
555.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個法規是93年定的嘛93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的9條1好 20年了今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家要補件然後如果交不出來有可能面臨驅逐出境剝奪身份嘛我想請問蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這一萬份的通知書有沒有沒有謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
557.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
582.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
梁副主委好好看看人家怎麼回答問題我要繼續請副署長你知道陳碎邊有沒有其實跟委員報告了所有在訂這一些馬英九有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
583.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
589.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
馬英九總統有沒有?我沒有針對說93年3月1號為什麼蔡英文沒有?為什麼陳水扁沒有?為什麼馬英九沒有?無能嗎?這三個總統無能? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
608.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
630.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對陸委會來講因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律所以當我們發現有許多人從來沒有繳交過相關的文件的時候這個部分就必須要處理所以蔡前總統在他八年任內他竟然沒有發現何其怠惰 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
631.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
653.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是這個意思嗎就你們偉大的現在在金澤總上來你就發現了我不能這麼說非常謝謝你當然不能這麼說如果根據現在的法律你當然不能這麼說任何人只要檢舉某一位路程我們就可以立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做而是選擇發通知要他們補件其實是出於人道的考慮梁副主委我當然知道你現在的立場我怎麼會不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
661.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
689.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我告訴你絕對不是蔡英文總統無能蔡英文總統任內雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方他也不是每一個政見做法我都認同但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟他們又拿著刀斧對著這些陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
691.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
693.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
報告委員 我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
702.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
724.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以啊 我告訴你啊 如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話那豈不是定義蔡英文為無能因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人他有大陸身份 我們就得立刻處理我們之所以不這樣做 而是給人家補正的機會就是因為忽異柔軟所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了就是因為柔軟來來來 你還柔軟咧副署長 請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
730.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
759.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沒有接到幾封檢舉信我這樣問好了 問精確一點這一萬多封發出去有幾個是接到檢舉信發的這個我要回去查看看你不用回去查啦 你給我個比例嘛有沒有百分之一啊 百分之十啊 百分之百因為我在實務上也有發現說有人這一萬份裡面有一份是檢舉 有十份是檢舉一百份是檢舉 還是一千份是檢舉這一點總的概率你總知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
761.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
790.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以要再查一下再查 好沒關係啦待會發新聞稿告訴大家啦好不好來 請副主委你很柔軟 真的好柔軟你柔軟到讓我都覺得已經是欲哭無淚了你剛剛講齁 有人檢舉你都還不一定查就這一萬份 沒檢舉你都查你說有人檢舉齁 有時候你還要體諒大家你柔軟 你還不一定查 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
793.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
814.457 |
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結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也差所以我才跟你講你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡一萬多個家庭 一萬多個子女這真的跟意識形態無關啦跟意識形態無關啦最後啊因為時間也到了我還是回到一句話啦身在宮門好修行在台灣三十年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
822.779 |
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他不是台灣人 到底誰是台灣人啊在台灣三十年了你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼這些東西我們都必須要看個案然後如果他是真的無法補正因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由完全無法補正的話我們不會把人家趕出去絕對不會請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
850.868 |
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| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就你法務部齁我們剛剛入委會柔軟的入委會說要看個案看個案就是主管機關裁定嘛不是嗎他這個可不可以留下來這個如果說有薄調的話這訴願在訴願的行政訴訟這個要在司法院行政機關做嘛這個是行政機關跟後來要打行政訴訟我講的行政處分是誰在做啊如果你的行政處分是誰在做這個不是法務部這個完全不是法務部我說如果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
880.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
909.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個要問司法院 因為這個屬於行政的問題你是一路走來始終如一啦這個因為要打行政訴訟沒關係 我做一個很快的結論 很簡單很簡單看看蔡英文總統啦看看陳水扁總統啦看看馬英九總統啦他們絕對不是無能這三個都是法律人總統他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
912.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
940.823 |
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我作為一個人在台灣生活三十年作為一個法律人或也作為一個任何人今天一個陸配來台三十年這段期間移民署也好 陸委會也好你在九十三年法律訂的時候要他六個月內交 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
942.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
970.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他也交文件不交文件不管你20年的時間你身份還是給他他身份繼續保留這不就是信賴保護嗎結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護而且說實在剛剛已經承認了沒有檢舉也做啊至少裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉啦至少不是全部都是檢舉啦因為你沒給我數字我也不敢講是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
蔡英文總統能夠知道這份柔軟馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟我希望身為人 身為人子也能有這份柔軟 謝謝 |
| gazette.lineno |
1060 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
羅委員智強：（12時51分）主席，有請司法院程廳長、法務部鄭部長、陸委會梁副主委以及內政部陳副署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩廳長、部長、副主委、副署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
羅委員智強：我想先念一段陸配子女的話給各位聽一下，請問各位感受如何？「我母親從小教導我要愛臺灣，守護這片土地。她來臺三十多年，奉公守法，照顧家庭，繳稅納保，未曾有任何違法行為，一生為家庭付出，為社會安分守序。如今卻因為無法提出一份三十多年前未被要求，現今更無從補辦的文件，竟然可能面臨撤銷中華民國身分，失去他所屬家園的命運，讓我們一家人痛心無助。我也忍不住想問，這真的是我們從小認識──以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎？」我想要請教在座的首長們，真的不是用黨派的角度去看這件事情，請大家用為人子女的角度來看這件事情！ |
| gazette.blocks[2][1] |
我想請教司法院程廳長，你也是一輩子的法律人，你覺得這是你從小認識、以憲政自由與人道為根本的中華民國嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
程廳長怡怡：我想這個一直都是我們追求的理念。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
羅委員智強：如果您的父母跟他一樣，被要求提出一個三十多年前未被要求、現今也無從補辦的文件，如果交不出來的話，他就要被驅逐出境，離開他的家園，離開他的家人。請問你能接受嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
程廳長怡怡：我想我的感受，可能會跟委員剛才念的那個子女的心聲是一樣的。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
羅委員智強：非常好，謝謝程廳長。我想請教鄭銘謙部長，我們將心比心，如果今天是我們的父母，政府要他補交三十年前的文件，這麼多年政府也沒有要他補辦，我們賴清德總統上來，就要他補交，而他也無從再找到這些東西，現在你找不到就只好離開臺灣！為人子女的話，你覺得你的心情會是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我想我是法務部長，就法言法，這個也不是本部權管的部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！部長，其實你的答案我都知道，你從來就是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
羅委員智強：學學程廳長，作為法律人要有法律人柔軟的心。我想請教移民署陳副署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳副署長建成：是，委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
羅委員智強：請問，如果你的父母被要求交這樣一份文件，他真的找不到，30年，其實我真的覺得是人之常情，找不到是人之常情！你覺得你身為子女，看著父母親要被趕出去，你心中作何感想？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳副署長建成：我們會很難過，可是剛剛稍早有一些委員的指導…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
羅委員智強：副署長，我跟你講，我能夠理解你現在在政府部門擔任事務官的為難，所以我不會勉強你，但你剛剛講的那一句你會很難過，我很感動！也請部長好好聽一聽。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][1] |
請副主委。請問你的感受是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：從我們陸委會的立場，我會先確定他所謂的無法補辦是什麼意思，因為我們碰過很多人說他無法補辦，但是後來都證明他其實是有辦法的，如果是真的…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
羅委員智強：你們發了多少信出去要求補辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：如果他是真的無法補辦，經過我們的偵別，真的無法補辦的話，那我們絕對會保障他的權益。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
羅委員智強：副主委，我問你，你們發了多少信出去要他們補辦？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：大概一萬吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
羅委員智強：一萬？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
羅委員智強：已經是接近無差別的要求了。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：沒有無差別。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
羅委員智強：所以一萬份都是被檢舉嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：沒有無差別。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
羅委員智強：一萬份都被檢舉嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：定居的差不多有14萬人，但14萬人之中…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
羅委員智強：這一萬份是不是都是93年以前的？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
羅委員智強：大部分？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：不止、不止。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
羅委員智強：不止？一萬份耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：不止。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
羅委員智強：所以我剛剛講的還不是一個子女的心情，是一萬個家庭子女的心情。沒關係啦！副主委，我也知道你是政務官，所以你有為政策辯護的職責，沒關係！我想請教你下一個問題，30年！30年！不是3天、不是3個星期、不是3個月、不是3年，是30年！要你交30年前的文件，要你自證，去交30年前的文件，交不出來就把你驅逐出境，驅逐離開臺灣，是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：不會的！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
羅委員智強：好，謝謝你，非常謝謝！副主委，現在我請我們的陸配今天聽聽，我們副主委今天被問出來了。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：我們不是叫他們交30年前的文件，而是30年前沒有去申請這份文件…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
羅委員智強：我請副署長來，副署長，謝謝你，剛剛副主委講交不出來也沒關係，因為30年……坦白講，我跟副署長講，真的，以一般人，不要用政治色彩，我請所有我們臺灣民眾以人的角度出發，你要人家從大陸拿30年前的文件出來，有難度吧？我不要講不可能，我講有難度總是很公道吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
陳副署長建成：所以在這裡跟委員報告，因為我們這幾天也接獲一些民眾…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
羅委員智強：來，我問一下部長，部長，有難度吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
羅委員智強：我沒有說不可能，我說這有難度吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：當然我是非常期盼他們能夠找出來，能夠在臺灣安居樂業。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
羅委員智強：部長，你又是……什麼叫期盼他們能找出來？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
羅委員智強：你怎麼會把所有的責任都加給民眾？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我權管的，我當然也是希望…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
羅委員智強：我知道啦！不是你權管的。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：因為有主管機關在，我沒辦法代他回答。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
羅委員智強：我想請教下一個問題，我要請教梁副主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
羅委員智強：發了一萬多封通知，要他們交件，是你剛剛講的，我想請問，為什麼蔡英文總統沒有發這一萬多件通知出去？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：老實講，因為2004年到現在，藍綠政黨轉換，我也不清楚到底為什麼以前沒有執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
羅委員智強：我跟你講為什麼，陳水扁有沒有發這一萬多封通知信出去？馬英九有沒有發這一萬多封通知信出去？你都跟我講你不知道、不懂、不了解，因為任何一個人，以子女的心情來講，蔡英文總統就知道，你接近無差別，一萬多份你不要跟我講是有差別，接近無差別，大規模…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：有交的…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
羅委員智強：做那件事情的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：凡是有交文件的我們就不會發通知啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
羅委員智強：有請副署長，這個法規是93年訂的對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
陳副署長建成：93年3月1號兩岸關係條例修正的第九條之一。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
羅委員智強：20年了，今年終於發了一萬多封叫人家補件，如果交不出來，有可能面臨驅逐出境，剝奪身分。我想請問，蔡英文總統8年有沒有發這1萬份的通知書，有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
陳副署長建成：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝。梁副主委…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
陳副署長建成：不過我在這裡要補充一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
羅委員智強：你先等一下，梁副主委，好好看看人家怎麼回答問題。我要繼續請副署長，你知道，陳水扁有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
陳副署長建成：其實跟委員報告，所有在訂這一些…… |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
羅委員智強：馬英九有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
陳副署長建成：我們其實在…… |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
羅委員智強：馬英九總統有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
陳副署長建成：我沒有針對93年3月1號…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
羅委員智強：好嘛！謝謝，沒有。副主委，為什麼蔡英文沒有？為什麼陳水扁沒有？為什麼馬英九沒有？無能嗎？這三個總統無能？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：對陸委會來講，因為兩岸條例是我們主管的法律…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
羅委員智強：我告訴你，這三個總統因為心裡有一份柔軟的心…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：所以當我們發現有許多人，從來沒有繳交過相關文件的時候，這個部分就必須處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
羅委員智強：謝謝你，副主委，不要在這邊指責蔡前總統，所以蔡前總統在8年任內竟然沒有發現，何其怠惰，是這個意思嗎？就你們偉大的現在賴清德總統上來，你就發現了？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：我不能這麼說…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
羅委員智強：你當然不能這麼說…… |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：如果根據現在的法律…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
羅委員智強：你當然不能這麼說！我請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：任何人只要檢舉某一位陸配，我們就可以立刻處理。我們之所以不這樣做，而是選擇發通知要他們補件，其實是出於人道的考慮。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
羅委員智強：梁副主委，我當然知道你現在的立場，我怎麼會不知道。我告訴你，絕對不是因為蔡英文總統無能，蔡英文總統任內，雖然也有很多我們意識形態不一樣的地方，她也不是每一個政見做法我都認同，但是蔡英文總統心中還有一份柔軟，她沒有拿著刀斧對著這些陸配，她沒有拿著一萬把刀對著這些陸配。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，我們現在的做法就是因為柔軟，真的！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
羅委員智強：所以我告訴你啊！如果你們把這個定義為柔軟的話，那你豈不是定義蔡英文為無能！ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：因為現在任何人如果去檢舉某一個人有大陸身分，我們就得立刻處理。我們之所以不這樣做，而是給人家補正的機會，就是因為出於柔軟。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
羅委員智強：所以你接到一萬多封的檢舉信了？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：就是因為柔軟。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
羅委員智強：你還柔軟咧，副署長，請問有沒有接到一萬多封的檢舉信？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
陳副署長建成：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有！接到幾封檢舉信？我這樣問好了，問精確一點，這一萬多封發出去，有幾個是接到檢舉信發的？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
陳副署長建成：這個我要回去查看看。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
羅委員智強：你不用回去查啦！你給我個比例，有沒有1%、10%，還是100%？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
陳副署長建成：因為在實務上也發現有人曾經…… |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
羅委員智強：這1萬份裡面有1份是檢舉，有10份是檢舉，100份是檢舉，還是1,000份是檢舉，這一點總的概略你總知道吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
陳副署長建成：所以要再查一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
羅委員智強：再查？好，沒關係啦！待會發新聞稿告訴大家，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[94][1] |
請副主委，你很柔軟，真的好柔軟，你柔軟到讓我覺得已經是欲哭無淚了。你剛剛講，有人檢舉你都還不一定查，結果這一萬份，沒檢舉你都查。你說有人檢舉，有時候你還要體諒大家，你柔軟，你還不一定查，結果你柔軟到沒檢舉的你也查，所以我才跟你講，你跟無差別到底差別在哪裡？一萬多個家庭，一萬多個子女，這真的跟意識形態無關，跟意識形態無關啦！最後，因為時間也到了，我還是回到一句話，身在公門好修行。在臺灣30年了，他不是臺灣人，到底誰是臺灣人？在臺灣30年了！ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：委員，我覺得你說的所謂無法補正或是什麼，這些東西我們都必須要看個案。然後如果他是真的無法補正，因為身體的理由或是什麼樣的理由，完全無法補正的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
羅委員智強：看個案？沒關係！請部長，這個部長總能回答了，請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
梁副主任委員文傑：我們不會把人家趕出去，絕對不會。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
羅委員智強：部長，剛剛柔軟的陸委會說要看個案，看個案就是主管機關裁定，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：他可不可以留下來，如果有駁掉的話，這是訴願再訴願的行政訴訟，這個要司法院…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
羅委員智強：對啊！行政處分是行政機關做，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個是行政機關跟後來要打刑事訴訟，這是司法院…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
羅委員智強：我講的行政處分是誰在做？如果你的行政處分是誰在做？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個不是法務部，這個完全不是法務部。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
羅委員智強：我說如果啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個要問司法院，因為這個屬於行政的問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
羅委員智強：你是一路走來始終如一啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個因為要打行政訴訟…… |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，我做一個很快的結論，很簡單，看看蔡英文總統、看看陳水扁總統、看看馬英九總統，他們絕對不是無能，這三個都是法律人總統，他們非常知道什麼叫信賴保護。我作為一個人，在臺灣生活30年，作為一個法律人，我也作為一個任何人，今天一個陸配來臺30年，這段期間移民署也好，陸委會也好，在93年法律訂的時候要他6個月內交，他交文件、不交文件，不管，20年的時間身分還是給他，他的身分繼續保留，這不就是信賴保護嗎？結果你現在打翻這個信賴保護，而且說實在，剛剛已經承認了，沒有檢舉也做啊！裡面很大部分是沒有檢舉，至少不是全部都是檢舉，因為你沒給我數字，我也不敢講是什麼。蔡英文總統能夠知道這份柔軟，馬英九總統能夠有這份柔軟，陳水扁總統也有這份柔軟，我希望，身為人，身為人子，也都能有這份柔軟，謝謝。 |
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主席：謝謝，我們下一位請張啓楷委員發言。 |
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266 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王義川 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
187 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-04-09 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1143501 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1143501_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育
部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相
關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報
告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1143501_00004 |