| IVOD_ID |
159997 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159997 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T12:23:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T12:38:44+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce1ca978a26086ca63a9dd72f8e909e2232eb6e21b32d8c6bec932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:23:38 - 12:38:44 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長對於「勞動部所屬基金違規使用如何追回及究責」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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我想先請教一下部會首長跟各單位的一級主管事實的輪調這是一種常態透過輪調這樣的機制其實是可以減少機弊的發生當然事實有新人的注入新人有新氣象有時候包袱也少一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
43.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
就像這個當初總統交付任務給部長的時候那這些任務可能就是有些是這個前任的部長們他們沒有辦法處理好的事情所以我想請教部長就是說你覺得這個部長大概任期做幾年比較剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
72.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我想我的任期其實是要讓社會或者是整體的政務來做評價但沒有一個我想我問這個其實他沒有一個標準的答案我就單純的問說您個人的看法這樣子那你如果不好意思講自己的話那我就再請教那你覺得一級主管呢我覺得都沒有標準答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是都沒有標準答案所以你就3年5年8年10年還是20年我覺得沒有我恐怕都不一定有標準答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
81.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好那我想有時候也是要看表現對不對好你說沒有標準答案那因為每個人表現不一樣嘛所以那沒有關係那我們就是也可以透過一些數據上的檢視我們來看看好那我想接下來我們就來檢視一下這位任期贏過各部會所有部長以及所有一級主管的資安署署長我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
116.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
在過去署長就是說你們勞動部有一個這個營造業墜落打擊年的計劃請問有沒有達標 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
138.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
143.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告我們最後打幾年的計畫是去年我們希望降30%確實沒有達標好 謝謝那這個計畫主要的績效指標你剛剛講可以再講一次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
154.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
155.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主要當時主要的精進作為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
202.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
包委員當然除了強力檢查之外我們透過部會合作還有營造團體一些來做促進因為包括工程跟民間工程都有大量的工作在進行所以我們不是只有勞檢在做促進的還有希望所有的那個資源都有有很多的這個方式並行嘛那我再請教就是說那署長回想這個回頭這樣回想檢討那為什麼沒有達標原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
204.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
229.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
報告委員我們發現就是第一個是承攬管理是還是沒有做落實特別是有些業主在交付給營造廠作業的時候業主負安全責任也相對偏低所以我們其實在去年就開始著手希望修職安法把有關營造業相關的困難能夠透過法治正面來做機制上的處置跟處理那這個有關修法的部分也要請委員及各界來給我們支持跟指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
229.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我想有效的有用的我們都會支持那你覺得說這個這個沒有達標的這些原因有沒有跟部署的表現不好或者你自己個人的領導統一有問題有關係呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
245.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
縣委員我們設定目標是大家往前前進沒有達到目標當然是首長負一定的責任但是我還非常肯定我們各檢察機構的同仁為了要營造減災我們也不會讓到每個檢察機構他有降低的目標值當然有些地方的檢察機構包括比如說某些縣政府檢察機構沒有達標但我們也請各檢察機構的首長做進一步的檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
286.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我問這個問題我沒有責備的意識啊我們就是提出來檢討嘛有些問題可能所以我覺得重大的政策目標假如沒有達標我們是整個勞動部尤其是政務的首長我們都必須要一起來檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以事務的沒有關係我認為政務的首長的責任也很大我是這樣子在思考自己的責任我有去檢視職安署的這個宣導網頁啦其實有很多的海報資料提供的事業單位你給它索取或下載 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
307.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個資料其實也是都是做得不錯啦那可是呢就是說資料是很不錯但是還是有這麼多的勞工在墜落那部長你從一個客觀不是職安衛領域的部長你覺得這樣的原因或者是說換一個角度來看當你不清楚狀況或原因的時候你當下你會想要知道什麼樣的資料或訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
當然因為我上任以後其實對於這個罪惡的問題其實我非常非常關注所以當然我們其實也跟治安署幾度的討論怎麼樣精進的原因也包括接下來會提治安法的修法可是也不只治安法的修法也包括這裡面其實有些做法上我覺得法尊上面我們必須要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我覺得你沒有回答到我問題就是我剛剛問的是說你不清楚當狀況跟原因那個當下因為事件發生嘛你最想要知道的這個資料或訊息是什麼我想你不會去想要修法的問題啦不會立刻馬上要看修法嗎我想這個比較接近的答案應該是說我們想要從這個職災調查報告上面去分析啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
380.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就是說有哪些真實發生事故的情況那是當初沒有設想到或者是說沒有落實的部分我們應該是會想要從這些調查報告去反省嘛去看看問題出在哪裡嘛而且就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
421.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這些資料應該是開放給外界都可以使用然後讓許多這個職安衛的這個專家都可以共同來診斷的問題才對嘛我不曉得部長有沒有同意好那可是呢你們號稱這個目前的職災資料有揭露公開我們看一下這個這個PowerPoint裡面的內容我認為是在這個虛擬故事敷衍了事 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
422.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是說如同這個簡報所揭露的我們來這個幫你們截圖來看你們自己問一下看一下這樣的資料是不是在部長當初您擔任立委的時候所要求的水準這樣的資料公布公開有什麼差別呢那到底這樣的資料我們能夠從這些資料能夠得到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
445.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
471.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 我跟陳仁說明其實我到部以後其實我也跟治安署說過我們其實要非常非常善用資訊公開的這樣子的一個工具來讓我們很多的事業單位必須承擔更多的社會上面的責任跟期待所以如果在資訊公開上面其實有做得更好的地方我覺得就請陳仁即刻的來讓我們知道那我覺得能做的我們就趕快來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
471.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
497.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我想我肯定部長的態度啦就是說那我這樣聽就是說那在那部長的意思就是說那你願意要來全面公開這些資料嗎就是作為未來職債預防的參考當然在在有包括個資法等等相關的授權之下我覺得能夠公開的部分我自己的傾向是可以擴大公開所以這個是不夠的嗎很不足啊我們看不出就 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
498.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有辦法從這些資訊裡面你只是講一個開放發生的地點然後死亡人數的檢查機構看這些要幹嘛呢能夠知道什麼呢對未來的預防沒有太大的幫助啊我覺得對公開上面的data set的細節我們可以討論對資訊的部分當然各自我們要盡到保密的責任那其他該公開的要公開那同樣的道理就是職災預防的措施我們還有這些職災地圖啦 職安卡的配套那你覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
528.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
540.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我不曉得署長認為說這些措施的功效在哪裡啦因為事業單位跟勞工有因為你們這些設計然後就改變變得更安全嗎我剛剛是說署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
545.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
建委的指教任何的我們推出的政策測試我們都會在做進一步檢討那跟委員報告是這個重大災害公開網確實是為了讓全民能夠了解在哪個建案在哪個工地發生過什麼事故那不管是民眾要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
561.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那個你也是講很多啦就是說有沒有這比較起來有跟沒有而已其實答案就是沒有啊因為我也知道你們做了很多的事情好啦今年我有特別在檢視老人所發布的這個113年的原住民的職災發生率我只是我在這邊我要很難過的講就是說已經連續下降4年了連續下降4年喔那 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
592.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
去年就再一次上升一下子又回到三年前的水準 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
593.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
617.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你們不要跟我講說是因為災保法通過之後投保人數增加的原因千萬不要講這個理由那111年開始實施以來齁它起碼就是說畢竟它這樣實施以來就是連續下降兩年然後113年又一下子增加了7%總共增加了64件的重大質災那這個營造業的質災是最多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
618.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
641.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以這個部分部長你覺得有什麼可以評論或者要回應那個跟陳報告看到這樣子的趨勢的話我認為當然我覺得會需要重點的來做檢討跟原因的分析因為這等於是有點他是一個趨勢的反轉他不只是這個放緩而以而是趨勢的反轉所以我們當然我會來跟我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
645.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那针对这个数据背后的原因我们来做一个彻底的了解好 那千万不要有那种美化数据的情形发生不会计算有很多的方式那这个因为劳动部的精进作为应该是说建立已经是建立在不错的基础上希望可以做得更好才叫精进那这个全国劳工产业这个全产业的这个值在千人率113年是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
674.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
683.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
署長有數據嗎你們現在有資料嗎這個數據也在網路上做公開我們113年的你什麼時候在網路上公開我們勞動網站就查得到現在是多少113年全部的數據是2.375所以這個是什麼時候出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
701.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
727.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你們什麼時候公告的我是請教公告的時間我們的統計處就會定時的公告啊對啦 定時是什麼時候啦每個月都會update一次每個月update好 這個月是第一次公開嗎還是現在四月了所以你們是公...我的理解是我們勞保局統計出來的結果資料會給我們的統計處統計處會到我們官網做公告我知道啦 我是問你什麼時候嘛你如果現在不知道你待會跟我講沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
730.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
731.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為你們的5年職災減半的經營計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
750.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
762.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不曉得就是說跟之前那個113年的這個打擊年的差別有沒有在哪邊然後跟針對這個墜落的部分有沒有新的措施跟方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
763.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
788.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
有還是沒有 各位委員報告 去年最弱的打擊連沒有達到我們的預期目標 各界都跟我們在指教所以我也跟所有講的機構首長開過的原商會議我們當然今年是希望朝這個目標去努力除此之外我們修法也可以把那個營商會同業工會還有國土署他們的力量 建管力量一起拉進來 希望能夠把最弱的打擊能夠做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
790.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
814.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以你五年職災減半計劃是有還是沒有就是有沒有把罪漏含進來有 包委員我們是2030年職災減半計劃好了那個半秒鐘可以回答的問題可以你的老毛病又犯了那是這樣齁就是說也要提醒要問署長就是說職安署的這個組長跟科長等主管未來會不會有很多人要提早退休或離職啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
816.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
835.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
報告委員非常謝謝提這個問題因為我們確實看到我們的工作其實是壓力蠻大的同仁有些是為了要照顧家庭有些提早退休有些剩下規劃確實也有一些同仁是想要先離開那我都誠心希望同仁能夠繼續來跟我一起合作跟努力當然有幾個同仁就是為了照顧家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
835.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
856.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
要提早退休那我就是講那麼多看起來就是真的那我只是要講說因為你現在講的理由都是從你嘴巴講出來的真實的理由可能大家會放在心裡面那我要提醒就是說這個預防職災這不是一個表面上政績的數字是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
857.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
875.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那麼而是每一個這個職在勞工家庭的血淚故事那反映的是這樣所以我希望勞動部真的可以好好的檢討那不管是萬年的主管去掌控了這些資料開放不夠的問題或者是求援兼裁判也有可能這樣的問題或者是讓內部機構劣幣驅逐良幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
879.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
902.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好這樣的情形也是有發生所以這些都是直接間接去傷害到勞工然後讓這個職災會持續發生的一個兇手這些原因所以我想請部長好好的去想一想那怎麼做呢到底要怎麼做才能夠有顯著的改善所以你剛才講的這些這些狀況的發生我想我作為一個首長都有責任那我們會來思考這麼檢討謝謝好謝謝 |