| IVOD_ID |
159972 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159972 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T11:22:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T11:42:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce654ea61846536d5f79a8b3a3b5782fdd2eb6e21b32d8c6be4c8ff0ad0dbab0055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:22:40 - 11:42:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好 謝謝主席 我想首先先請陸委會和移民署是兩副主委嗎 兩副主委和陳副署長市委委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
50.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
副主委好還有副署長好我想就是從昨天到今天在整個新聞上面還有我包含本席也收到很多的民眾打電話來抱怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
陸委會跟移民署發了這個通知書就是要求這些陸配他們要檢附在大陸的儲戶證明然後在這裡你們寫的法令依據是兩岸人民關係條例的第九條之一以及第十七條第五項第三款的規定我首先想請教移民署你們這次發出去多少份的通知書 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
101.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
8號委員我們這次共發了一萬多份多少一萬多份一萬多少份呢一萬兩千多份一萬兩千多份那麼主要發出去的對象是民國93年之前取得身份證的嗎還是有哪些人我們有包括就是93年3月1號施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
128.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
兩岸關係條例修正的3月1號修正以後必須要在這個之前取得身份的陸配他必須在6個月之內繳付除籍證明這是第一個第二個就是從93年之後因為疫情的關係我們有這一些到最近都還沒有繳交除籍證明文件的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
131.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
所以簡單來說就是有一批人是民國93年之前就已經取得了身份證的然後以及就是說還有另外一群是在近期疫情期間取得身份證的我想請問一下在93年之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
176.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
取得身份證的當時應該是依據舊法因為在兩岸人民關係條例是在民國92年年底的時候修法施行是從93年開始施行所以呢在你們現在講的這個依據是依據第九條之一然後要求這個93年之前取得身份證的陸配必須要再補繳這個證件我想請教就是在九之一條的這個規定它的規範對象是包含哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
178.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
203.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他所有大陸來台取得定居的這些陸配是只有那所以呢如果我們台灣地區的人民我們台灣人在大陸那裡有涉戶籍呢93年之前有涉戶籍的呢報告委員他這一條的意思就是所有台灣地區人民都不能夠在大陸涉籍如果你在大陸涉籍你就要在六個月之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
204.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
226.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
取消那邊的身份 放棄原籍證明那所以這邊所謂的台灣地區人民就是在那個時候擁有台灣身份證的人 就這樣好 所以呢 也就是說九之一條的規定基本上它的規範對象是全台灣人 對不對在台灣地區的全中華民國民 就是在那個時候有身份證的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
227.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為我講嘛 第一項嘛不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛所以就是說在93年的時候這條91條規定是所有的台灣人包括我們現在所有的人都不可以在大陸設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
261.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那我現在要質疑的就是說你陸委會如果說你今天質疑說現在台灣人可能有些人是在大陸地區有護照或是有戶籍你為什麼你不全面清查你為什麼只挑93年之前已經取得中華民國身份證他理論上他就已經是中華民國國民了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
290.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
跟委員報告就是說在93年之前如果他是陸配他取得台灣的身份證但如果他也沒有交那個撤銷對面戶籍的證明的話那我們肯定他就有這一條的適用我想請教一下93年之前的當時這群陸配他們申請身份證那時候的法規裡面有要求他們要付儲戶證明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
309.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
93年以前沒有可是據我了解這也是很多的就是本席街道這邊有民眾陳情那時候其實他們也有檢附一些主婦證明好像是當時交到另外不同的機關裡面去那麼更何況現在已經事隔這麼多年那看起來這次的陸委會其實就是特別就是針對陸配是你們推定他們這些人在大陸都有戶籍或是護照嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
321.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
戶籍我應該這樣講在大陸如果說他是陸配他在大陸一定有戶籍那他將來台灣他拿到身份如果他沒有繳交撤銷大陸戶籍的證明的話除非他在大陸是無戶籍國民因為當時他們可能來台灣的時候就已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
358.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
已經除戶了已經放棄戶籍事隔這麼多年二十幾年那麼我想要再請問的就是說因為從最近陸委會的種種的措施來看基本上就是找陸配麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
359.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那麼不管是之前找雅雅的事情然後或者是現在要求所有的93年之前取得身份證這些陸配一定要檢附儲戶證明這些其實說實在話到底現在陸委會你們是有查到多少人你們自己可以依職權調查你們是有查到多少陸配或是陸配的子女在大陸有戶籍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
389.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
413.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
當然有啊有 有多少當然有有多少你們自己有依職權去調查嗎我們這幾年調查這幾年依法取消台灣身份的有676人這幾年有676人所以這是你們自己依法去調查還是人家檢舉的檢舉調查都有檢舉調查你們現在是透過什麼樣的管道去調查你們可以知道可以掌握到這些陸配在大陸有沒有戶籍嗎譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
422.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我舉個例子他可能他他號稱自己沒有大陸的身份但是他可能他去出入出國或者是這個他就不小心用了他自己的護照那這種狀況被我們察覺那他就會被我們取消台灣的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
是 所以代表說其實陸委會不是沒有能力可以或是移民署不是沒有能力可以去查那麼你們就可以依職權去調查那麼去了解到底陸配他在對岸有沒有戶籍可是你們現在呢卻這個採取了一個就是把所有的人搞得雞飛狗跳人仰馬翻然後非得要人家去拿著護照去取得這儲戶證明我認為這樣子的方法其實是極為不妥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
471.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
477.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那麼我要講的就是說在第十七條裡面的規定是所有的大陸地區的人民他要取得中華民國身份證他可能是依據的第十七條既然依據第十七條他已經取得了他當然就是我們這裡講的這個這個就視為是大陸台灣地區人民所以如果說今天要依據第九之一條裡面去要求他們要檢附這些儲戶證明你留任上官是全台灣的人民你都要發這個通知啊那你為什麼要特別去針對他們更何況我現在要講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
501.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就是移民署怠惰如果說93年這個法規就已經通過了如果你們當時就認為說必須要求這些大陸地區已經取得身份證的陸配必須要檢附儲戶證明20年來為什麼你們都不作為老實講這個事情我們也很困惑因為這20年來有藍有綠都輪流執政過 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
530.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以麥欽德上任之後特別在意這個事情特別讓人說我們現在台灣裡面都充斥著匪諜是不是委員我跟妳報告一下如果根據九字一條今天如果任何人檢舉某一個陸配 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
548.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
570.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他沒有繳交的話那麼我們根據九十一條就是可以直接把他除去台灣的身份的那我們之所以沒這麼做而現在採取說是只有陸配嗎你的話基本上就不合邏輯我只是舉例啦我只是舉例如果說有任何人截取今天台灣人在大陸有戶籍有護照你就不要特別去針對我們前一陣子就處理了好幾個嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
572.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
593.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那現在我跟委員報告就是說如果今天有人檢舉某一個人他在大陸確實有身份那我們就是可以根據九之一條然後直接把他除掉除掉台灣身份那我們之所以不這麼做而採取現在的先發通知請你回去拿文件的做法就是已經有相當的考慮了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
594.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
613.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
副主委我要這樣想一下在我們的行政程序法裡面有些規定我想不知道是陸委會不知道還是移民署不知道雖然說在第95條之3裡面有講兩岸地區的人民往來有關事務是不適用行政程序法的規定可是我要特別提醒你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
614.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
626.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在立法理由裡面當時講得很清楚 是不適用行政程序法的程序規定實體規定還是要適用的所以在這裡我要告訴你們 我給你們上點課行政程序法裡面有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
628.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
645.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這些重要的基本原則行政行為要受法律及一般法律的拘束要符合比例原則要依行誠實信用的方法為之就是要符合誠信原則要保護人民的正當合理信賴同時也要去注意當事人有利不利的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
647.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
672.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因此行政程序法裡面也有特別講到就算是你們今天認為沒有補件的路配當時核給他們身份證可能是有違法的行政處分但是違法行政處分的撤銷也是有期間的限制你兩年之內不作為撤銷權可能就過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
673.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
681.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
報告委員他這邊是知有撤銷原因實就是說行政機關知道行政機關知道兩年裡面行政法上面不見得說是沒有適用權力失效的法例你行政機關你怠惰二十年你不去追你突然之間告訴大家講說那你全部的人都要撿付儲戶證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
698.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
720.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那你今天應該要求全台灣的人啊都到大陸那裡去申請個儲戶證明去證明自己說沒有這個證明沒有這個大陸的戶籍我覺得你們的邏輯不對你們今天基本上就是沒有把陸配當成台灣人我覺得這就是你們最大的問題你們的上位概念你們的想法就是根本不把長期在台灣居住 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
722.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
744.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
愛護台灣的這群陸配當成是我們自己的自己人所以從一根本你們就認為他們就是有問題所以20年了30年了你還是對他不認同啊不就是這樣的嗎所以我要講就是基於誠信原則法的安定性原則我基本上我非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
747.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
754.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我基本上是認為今天移民署跟陸委會你們就是權力濫用你們標準的權力濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
782.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有很多的措施你們可以是採取更緩和的手段去進行的包含雅雅的事件我基本上我並不是認為說今天雅雅的言論這個主張無統這樣的言論是對的即便是他這樣言論自由我都認為應該要有所限制問題是你行政機關你對待像這樣子的案子你有符合比例原則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
784.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
807.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你們有太多的措施你們可以要求他的影片下架可以給他警告更何況大家看在我們的兩岸人民關係條例第14條第二項裡面也有講你要驅逐出境你要撤銷他的居留許可你要考慮到他在台灣有沒有未成年子女有沒有難以回復的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
809.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
830.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員這個行政法院已經有判決行政機關應該開始在做這樣子的一個決定的時候你們就是濫用行政權我現在很遺憾就是這個不管是雅雅還有歐桂枝的事件也是一樣的我想請教一下教育部請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
839.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
861.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
老師或是像我們講的一般的這個大學教授學者們到底可不可以接受陸媒的採訪有沒有違法當然是沒有違法接受陸媒採訪沒有違法沒有違法要看情況他的言論內容要看言論內容所以呢這個從您剛剛的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
863.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
871.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
讓我就感受到就是如果說上陸媒的節目去批評賴清德批評賴政府批評賴17條這樣的言論就不行這樣子就是違法是嗎那是他的言論自由是你說是誰的言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
877.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
899.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那是他個人的言論自由但他的行為他作為一個老師他另外有一些專業的倫理必須去守他有沒有遵守教育基本法這是你們自己教育部寫的說這個是教師法第32條嚴守職分本於良知發揚世道及專業精神請問一下以歐貴貞老師的事情你告訴我他有違反他的職守嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
900.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
920.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這是提醒他他沒有本於良知嗎我想北玉女他們本身學校現在也對說這個他接受這個中共的官媒的訪問他認為不合宜所以我現在不是問北玉女北玉女的做法她是這個也有這個明顯的違法我現在是問你教育部的立場你認為歐慧珍的老師的這樣子的立場歐老師的言論自由沒有問題有違反師道嗎有違反專業精神嗎就見仁見智吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
928.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
955.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我想台灣就是有言論自由所以他的言論自由是被保障的但是他的言論內容被批評我們也必須去保障可以批評的人是那既然如此那你教育部幹嘛還要台北市教育局去處理歐貴茲的事情不是不是是因為我們有就是台灣是言論自由的地方所以也有我們收到13封的檢舉信認為他這樣違反教育中立所以我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
956.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
983.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
本於這個職權我們請地方政府去了解有沒有那我想這種這種這種說行政調查是所以最後我要問一下我最後再請教次長的就是簡單來說現在老師大學教授學者接受陸媒採訪沒有問題不違法沒有法律去禁止沒有法律禁止沒有問題沒有違法那如果說在陸媒 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
985.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1010.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
接受陸媒的採訪 批評爛17條有沒有違法 受不受到言論自由的保障是啊 受啊受到言論自由的保障我認為是受 但是我就說他的言行 他的行為作為一個老師 他適不適合去講這樣的內容我作為一個法律學者見仁見智吧或是其他 我們現在有很多的法律 政治 社會 經濟各方面的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1012.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1034.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這個基本上對於賴十七條都很有意見的是啊我們在台灣可以大大方方的講這有沒有違反我們的教育所以我說言論自由上是保障的他的問題在於言論內容上引起社會上不同的反應正因為台灣是言論自由的國家所以有不同的反應也有支持也有反對那教育是本與中立那我們提醒他 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1035.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1049.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
本於中立的意思不就是在課堂上我盡量維持中立我要講有人支持賴十七條有人批評賴十七條這叫教育中立對不對我在課堂上面維持這樣子的中立性但是在課堂之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1051.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1069.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
在其他的媒體投書新聞投書批評賴17條不行嗎所以我今天就是要得到次長您剛剛的說法我講的是說言論自由是被保障的但是言論內容引起爭議引起各方的批評證明台灣是言論自由的國家如果說這樣的言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1073.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1075.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
引起了社會的討論社會的這個批評那麼因此教育部就要去干預我想歐老師他也有那個心胸去接受各界的批評因為你講這種高度爭議的政治性言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1087.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1095.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
一定會引起台灣各界的一些不同的反應這是叫高度政治性言論嗎我覺得基本上我希望部長你可以介紹你在中共的官媒去批評台灣的元首的這個國安政策當然是高度政治性言論所以賴清德是不能被批評的當然可以我剛才講說可以啊所以呢我在台灣的媒體上面批評跟我在大陸的媒體上面批評這有什麼差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1108.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1113.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
不是當然是可以批評啦委員我剛才一直強調在台灣的話就被認為是這個是不可以我們就是要被打壓不是委員我剛才提過嘛就是說在台灣正是因為言論自由所以對於歐老師的言論內容批評也有很多不同的看法那我們本部是收到了13封 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1128.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1131.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個檢舉性所以我們請地方政府去了解這個過程裡面完全是基於行政中立的作為跟了解自由是被保障的是內容批評我今天至少質詢的部分我可以得到次長一個肯定的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1145.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1149.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就是呢在台灣的老師教授學者們接受大陸媒體的這個採訪違法同時呢如果在大陸媒體上面批評現在賴政府的作為批評賴清德也不違法因為這都是受到言論自由的保障好 以上謝謝 |