| IVOD_ID |
159934 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159934 |
| 日期 |
2025-04-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-04-09T09:56:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-04-09T10:15:11+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:18:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/984603a5a250cdce92f27f64ea6f557879a8b3a3b5782fdd6e4b1f34053c89dee3a4a211d9ab1f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林倩綺 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:56:35 - 10:15:11 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-04-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、數位發展部部長、教育部部長、大陸委員會主任委員、內政部移民署署長、國家安全局局長及國家人權委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「言論自由不在？界線誰說了算！國家介入特定政治言論之法律邊界」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席張蕾在本席進行質詢之前本席想要做一個會議詢問因為本席看到今天出席的名單那在幾個這個部會有好多位應該您這邊邀的主管都請假好像司法院應該出席的副秘書長還有NCC國家通訊委員會的主秘也請假然後速發部的這個部長也請假教育部的部長也請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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大陸委員會的主委也請假內政部移民署的署長也請假國安局的局長也請假那我可以了解一下這是什麼樣一個狀況嗎他們各自都是有提就是說另有公務像那個陳王秘書長他是說有會議要主持然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.121 |
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看一下那個NCC的主委他是只有寫一個因公其他的公務那速發部他他也是說只有另有要公然後移民署的中署長是要參加外交國防委員會的會議他應該是在另外一個委員會然後教育部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
91.383 |
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政部長他也是說另有公務然後陸委會他也是寫另有公務蔡局長他是在國防外交委員會在另外一個委員會所以之後我們會再跟他反映因為今天確實非常多人說沒有辦法過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
115.613 |
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那如果說另有要工的話那我們在我會請助理去了解一下到底是什麼樣的事情那之後如果有其他會議的話我想我會跟他們的聯絡人先大家先說明清楚如果有什麼問題那提早跟我們說讓我們了解一下或看有沒有辦法協助他們去排除他們所謂另有要工尤其是今天的今天的議題在我個人認為我看到那麼多 |
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145.255 |
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這個政務官不敢來我想我心裡大概也是有底啦因為畢竟這個問題是比較尖銳一點那我想說好如果你有問題等一下再提出來我先沒關係OK好謝謝謝謝你對我的微笑那所以說我想說我今天大概看到這樣的結果我想我心裡也有底啦那沒關係我們想說之後如果有必要那我們再請 |
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171.112 |
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這幾位部長來就同樣一個議題去發表意見我想我目前的想法是這樣不知道委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
180.148 |
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好的謝謝主席因為我也很少看到在過去的經驗裡面很少看到應該來的這個部會首長一整列這個請假所以有一些想要理性溝通的東西我覺得今天我可能要做一個很大的調整那也希望召委未來也有機會就針對這個議題那相關的部會我覺得這是一個溝通的平台所以如果可以的話那這些請假的應來的這個相關的首長那是不是請這個 |
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跟委員說明一下一直到今天為止其實我並不知道會有那麼多部長請假我會知道有幾位沒有錯但是並不知道那麼多我說我之後可能會跟聯合委員討論一下就是說我們是不是將來有這個狀況能夠及早讓我們知道我們也讓各個委員知道這個狀況所以我們想要部長另有要功不是不行啦但是讓我們知道一下狀況然後我們可以比較好調配 |
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238.684 |
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謝謝趙偉啦 剛才因為這個很多利用藥工或在其他的委員會那我想這個我就尊重趙偉的一個權責謝謝 謝謝趙偉所以今天大概有些東西我就做一些調整不過 好 那我就現在開始那當然經過今天的這個議題雖然有些人認為說很敏感可是我覺得正好藉這個機會大家可以做一些溝通 |
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264.853 |
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那原本我也是很期待這個副秘書長或者是司法院的跟法務部我們藉這個平台可以做一些對話但是竟然沒有我就要不然我一開始還是先請這個我們司法院的代表然後其實本來是主要是司法院那法務部長既然在這邊也很感謝那是不是也請您這邊我們一起來討論一下這件事但是我的重點麻煩廳長還有部長對基本上是在這個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
293.13 |
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那當然今天的議題就是這個言論自由的這個邊界啦那當然我相信大家在整個社會氛圍都知道其實就跟我們最近社會上幾件大事然後大家看以民眾的觀點來講看起來會很多事情會蠻難理解的那當然就會有一些想像所以基本上就是言論自由的邊界那還有這就關係到兩岸的這個和平 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
317.337 |
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當然這其實也看到了一個政策的轉變但是這個政策轉變其實觸及了台灣作為一個自由民主社會制度的根基不僅讓我們感覺到說當國家以國安為名在干預言論 |
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333.311 |
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以敵我為界在處理兩岸關係的時候那民主的核心感覺上已經面臨了侵蝕的風險所以我希望透過今天能夠有一些制度性的檢討那但是因為有一些首長不在所以我就簡化某一些我們應該在這邊談的這個內容所以我們都知道幾個案件嘛那個被驅逐回去的這個陸配 |
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358.558 |
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383.699 |
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還有受大陸那邊電視台訪問的教育人員我們講歐老師好了還有中研院院士有許多的學者也針對言論自由覺得政府在做思想審查這樣子的議題也開了一些會議來讓大家知道所以現在讓我們擔憂整個社會是不是因為不小心講錯話就會失去工作資格或居留權 |
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385.06 |
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403.668 |
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法務部長我其實在剛開始也跟您說我這邊代表一個民眾的觀點我不希望今天在這個階段先落入了一個法條的討論所以民眾的觀點是我這邊希望能夠對話的所以這個最近的事件讓我們感覺到國家權力已經介入了這個政治言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.648 |
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425.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
然後整個制度有沒有開始偏離自由民主的憲政軌道當國家機器以國家為名但事實上在做意識形態為實的這樣一個鬥爭的時候逐漸擴張對言論的干預那這是我們今天提出質疑很重要的一點好 那時間關係我這邊提出對司法院提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
426.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
441.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
一些想法你們剛才在講說你們很多東西尊重主管機關的裁決這就像剛才莊委員有講的你們這樣會讓人家感覺標準不一所以我期待司法院這邊能夠更積極作為這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
442.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
463.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二個部分是這一次陸配的事件我想問的是我拿聯合國代人權宣言委員會第34號的一般性意見其中有的內容要件跟我們有一點憲法這邊有點接近就是明確性必要性比例性你們剛才也講到直接及 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
488.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
直接且及時的威脅那請問這幾個案例你們可以跟我們回應到底什麼東西是直接與及時的威脅嗎還有在過程當中做出處分前的整個程序保障有真正被落實嗎所以處分前有經過司法審查或者是給予當事人的程序保障或者是你國家有舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
489.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
494.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他們是如何危害及時而且事實上會影響的證據嗎這個不知道廳長這邊可以給一些回應嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
503.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
526.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
謝謝委員的垂詢我想首先先澄清一下就是我剛才回應莊委員的就是尊重各機關的這個立法的職權是基於是因為大法官是說其實言論自由不是毫無限制的是可以以法律加以限制的那我想剛才莊委員就說那這個法律的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
529.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
538.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
法律的條件或法律的標準在哪裡這個當然就是他剛才給你們的建議但是我想這幾個事件你們在作出處分前的程序保障呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
540.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
560.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那跟委員報告就是說那其實這一些怎麼樣以法律來在法律裡面來加以規範那這是屬於實體法的事項那現在行政機關就是那本席不希望今天落入法條或法律或者是法律邏輯上的一個討論立法原則的討論那對人民來講他就是生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
563.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
590.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以請你們積極的作為去了解這樣子的個案是不是在比例原則上程序上有符合相對的公義嗎這是當然的那不過跟委員報告就是目前委員剛才提到的雅雅案他的本案我沒有特別指出好幾個這個中配案我不希望又個案然後又法條我今天要講的是整個社會已經被這種你們法律人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
591.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
616.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
隨意的解釋然後甚至還有某一些實際上的行為已經感到非常的焦慮所以本席在這邊提出來是司法院可不可以請你們可不可以更積極的作為而不是靜觀其變而已好嗎因為今天我們期待秘書長、副秘書長請假所以廳長請你把這樣一個概念是不是可以回去做個轉告 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
617.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
639.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當然委員追尋的事我們一定會回去轉告不過還是想要說明一下因為剛才其實幾位議員這邊有提到所謂你們的回應也有談到司法救濟可是他都被錢送回國了那請問司法救濟過程何在這個是我剛才所提到的我剛才所提到的所以請你們做個思考從民眾的觀點好不好 從民眾的觀點謝謝部長還有這個廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
644.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
647.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我想過去就本席這邊所知道的我們在對大陸的政策其實本來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
671.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
686.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
充滿爭議那過往的這個經驗大部分的幾個政府都以擱置爭議然後來尋求共識為基本路線但是近期我們感覺這個政府不知道是不是想要創造一個這個政府的特性 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
688.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
713.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
讓我們感覺到不斷的在激化統獨的對立而且透過輿論的審判和行政的懲處來建構所謂政治正確的這個標準塑造只有一種聲音的政治環境那麼這個其實讓人也有感覺好像在藉此獲取一些選舉的紅利這樣子的操作手法其實跟所謂的威權時期有一點像 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
714.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
740.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你不覺得這樣好像有點破壞民主的精神也會讓整個憲政機關失去民眾的信賴本席在這邊提出來了我們可不可以透過交流來找出一個最好的避戰方式本席認為多做交流是最好的避戰方式最近經常在矛盾計畫當中我們就看到許多國安政策的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
741.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
768.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
例如反滲透法中你們把中國界定成一個境外的敵對勢力然後又恢復了軍事審判軍事軍閥審判還有國防預算又要提高這其實一直有一種氛圍讓大家感覺到我們好像快要面對戰爭我是不是可以建議陸委會你們可不可以考量讓戰略模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
769.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
777.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
來導引區域的穩定你們一定要這樣子壁壘分明嗎讓大家一直普遍活在恐懼的焦慮當中嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
782.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
810.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
是其實委員我們對陸委會來講我們長期在兩岸交流的工作還有兩岸協商等等這些其實是我們陸委會的職長但是我們也必須強調陸委會還有一塊就是說還有一塊很重要的工作就是對於中共的滲透統戰等等的作為我們是必須想辦法去防堵的這個是我們陸委會的工作之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
810.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
833.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以你們現在決定強化這一塊然後讓全民跟著你們在這一塊周旋嗎兩岸這30年來有交流但是也有滲透也有統戰 都有那現在的話我們這幾年看到的是這個滲透統戰的威脅越來越大而且往往是隨著交流而來的滲透跟統戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
834.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
849.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以這個對於國內的這個安全來說的話當然是必須要強化跟國園報告譬如說自由之家他在評比台灣的這個言論自由跟心言自由的時候他指出台灣對於中共的很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
850.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
868.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
策略跟作為實際上是令人這個防堵的這個作為不夠令人憂心所以自由之家他是把台灣列為最這個亞洲僅次於日本的新聞自由的國家但是他覺得台灣對中共防堵的不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
869.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
895.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
對 本席要談的是這個是你們所謂的專業對中共的防堵但是你們目前提出來的政策已經讓整個社會感覺到非常的焦慮本席這邊就提出來一個建議啦英國的戰略學者Barry Bouson談到說當一個相對弱勢的國家想要藉由軍事化追求安全的時候會造成臨近強權的安全焦慮結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
897.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
911.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
導致強化區域衝突的一個風險這種安全困境就是我們目前所面臨的核心風險本席在這邊語重心長的對你們提出建議你們或許有認為交流所帶來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
913.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
935.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
統戰的困境但是你們選擇的方式跟做法已經導致整個社會的不安所以有許多這一些個案讓大家看不懂也牽引到本席剛才所談的那在程序正義上或者是對個人人權的保障上已經讓人感到有不公平的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
935.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
946.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以本席在這邊對你提出相關的一個建議所以你們專業上碰到的問題本席不希望全民一起陪進去讓社會處在一種焦慮的狀況當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
947.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
969.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是 我們陸委會在執行相關工作的時候一定對於人權的保障跟程序性的保障我們是完全所以本行在這邊作為一個人民的出口所以必須要提醒你們現在真的是導引了現在這樣的狀況那請陸委會再做一些檢討那我還是建議多做交流那至於交流後面碰到的細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
970.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
991.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
應該是你們陸委會專業要處理的問題是好 謝謝最後很短的時間我可不可以提一個那個司法人員我還是請一下廳長這個還是就請您把這個相關的訊息帶回去那或許如果還有機會我還是希望能夠聽到這個回應那可以請您上來一下大概一分鐘好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
992.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1021.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
本席這邊對於司法人員的過勞的問題我簡單講就是說其實目前的工作量很大本席這邊有一個相關的調查發現你們的離職率也蠻高的就是檢察官、書記官還有司法人員的相關法官大家評價很高但是對於流動性就是離職率高也是一個很大的問題但是本席實際的了解也就是說你們其實loading也很重 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1022.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1043.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但是呢人數又沒有辦法擴大那你是不是可以針對這個部分跟本席做一個回應那後續有機會本席這邊也要再跟您確認目前這個部分演繹的如何好那最後一個問題是希望你們能夠看書面報告或者是來跟本席這邊回應一下也就是那個有關於我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1045.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1063.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
裁判費收費標準雖然很長時間沒有做調整但是呢你們在這個應該去年吧幾年前的調整一下子調的讓人家覺得很難理解就是那個訴訟費那這個挑戰你自己回去看一下這個比例你們那個訴訟費的調整現在有到了3%或者是已經超過50%這個您這邊有了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1072.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1097.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
你們不太了解這個部分就民眾訴訟權會因為這個訴訟費突然間你們去年有一個行政命令然後調整的這個額度對一般大眾50%這是很高的您對這個問題不了解所以是不是會後針對這個訴訟額度的這個提高你們有分階段分層次但是對於一般大眾影響是最大的你們幾乎調了50% |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1099.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1111.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以請你就這個問題 惠後給本席一個相關的報告或是來跟本席這邊做回應 好不好好的 美鳳姐再麻煩照委員的要求處理那下一位我們請王益川委員發言 |