| IVOD_ID |
159729 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159729 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-27T12:03:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-27T12:23:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9003586e1693351e8ea7648dfe0a0275fc59b62a44c83059aaff356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:03:20 - 12:23:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、國家發展委員會、教育部、法務部針對「少子女化衝擊，如何營造友善托育環境」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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8加2好這個是不是請這個我還想看在叫什麼國發會還有勞動部是吧好吧 暫時這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.457 |
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謝謝署長國發會前陣子派一位副主委來要請假連副主委都還要請假有此可知 都不重視啊那我們為什麼今天要講這個少子女化這個議題因為台灣的這個老化的速度太快超高齡社會20%以上的65歲以上的人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
84.409 |
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那老化太快的這個原因啊不是因為平均壽命大幅提高許多因為超高齡社會啊一種是你突然間大家都壽命延長許多增加很多要不然就是總生育率下降的太快而我們就是總生育率下降的太快而不是平均壽命提高很多這個是很重要的因為全世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.649 |
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102.416 |
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這個超高齡社會的這個樣態很多而我們跟日本大概就是那種總生育率下降得太快的這一種所以成為全世界的先行者我們會找不到有可能會找不到說到底要怎麼因應的策略這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
103.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
126.317 |
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那同時面臨小子女化和高齡衝擊所以政府提出很多這個因應的對策啦那現在呢要研議這個將育嬰留子停薪6加1個月那你們是預估6個月有領的大概21000人所以再增加1個月增加6億元嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
127.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.827 |
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對 這個是 對 沒有錯那我問你有資格可以請領育嬰流艇的有多少人我們去年的數字是九萬三千多人九萬 那不是三歲以下嗎對 就去年實際上有來申請的我跟你講 三歲以下平均大概也有四五十萬人吧四五十萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
151.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
180.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
家庭大概有三歲以下的小孩所以夫妻兩個人的話大概90萬人有資格90萬人有資格而你說去年來請領過的人次是9萬左右那也才十分之一那你現在講說因為來請領的有人只領一個月有人領三個月 有人領四個月領滿六個月的只有兩萬一千人所以你去推估說有領滿的我再多給他一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
207.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個是照顧了兩萬一千人左右可是全部總需求理論上都有需求而且都去申請的話應該是九十萬人啊所以去年我們根據勞保的那個生育給付實際上有發生育給付的是八萬一千八百多人那如果父母都來領的話那三歲啊所以有三個啊八萬多去年生了十三萬多的小孩啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
208.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
232.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
生育給付有來請領是8萬1我有的人不請領不代表他沒需求要暈流停他不請領生育給付他有可能他又不是受雇者或是其他的但是他生了小孩過去三歲以下的總嬰兒數總小孩數大概四五十萬不要在這邊講到那裡去都浪費我的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
233.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
四、五十萬的人,加點有備,有補的時間加起來就是九十萬人啦有九十萬人有資格去請啦但是呢,算是你請完,還要是兩萬一千人啦所以呢,在這裡我要講的是,你們因為流停多領一個月這個策略,這個政策,你沒有擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
照顧更多需求的人你只是讓便宜形式讓有資料請萬六個月那本來就是條件比較好讓他再給你一個月金價重要的是其他有90萬人他為什麼沒有不敢請滿不敢請領請滿然後也不敢請價不敢請滿也不敢來請錢也不敢請全請 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
274.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.308 |
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這才是重要的嘛 那就是問題啊那我們在講說延長育嬰留庭這個有效有可以提升生育的意願嗎或者是多發放一個月的津貼有辦法提升生育的意願嗎不要忘了死亡人數20萬啦2024年生育率13萬-負的7萬人耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
301.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
324.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
再繼續付下去 台灣會很嚴重所以這持續五年的副成長而且2024年是出生人數最低的那一年而你們國科會自己有做一個研究少殖民化問題和對策實證調查分析報告受訪的人都說其實第一經濟考量是影響生育決策最重要的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
325.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
334.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
然後呢多數表示如果生育補助育兒津貼對生育的意願影響是有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
其實是經濟啦 大家可想而知是經濟啦為什麼經濟 剛剛那個次長給我們上了一堂課啊所以啊 大家都需要工作啊 女性也需要工作啊我也不想依賴先生 事實上先生也不見得能夠依賴大家一個家庭都需要雙薪收入所以絕對不能離職 不能少一份工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
377.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面 如果在這種狀況 你的想像要怎麼樣留住女性勞動力 因為她不能離職然後呢 又要她生小孩 讓她在家庭跟工作之間不能夠二擇一 同時都要兼顧這個就是勞動部過去所想像的本來是說鼓勵大家留職 停薪育兒 暫時離開職場可是大家都知道 暫時離開職場要重返 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
385.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
408.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
門檻很高啦障礙很多啦所以現在才一直在轉換變成說能不能一邊育兒一邊工作不要中斷工作也不要中斷年資然後在工作和育兒之間得到平衡所以我們一直在講的是說要普及公共化托育設施要放寬家庭照顧假 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
410.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
要把育嬰變成彈性親職架因為大家都知道 不然要死的時候錢是最重要的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第二就是不是孩子生出來就自己大喊要陪伴 大家都知道要陪伴所以工作時數能不能陪伴也是很重要然後呢 遇到他學校有幼兒園大家都知道從保母那裡3歲送到幼兒園就開始每天感冒3歲到6歲每天都感冒 每天都要去哭 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
445.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
457.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這個要有價要有價怎麼來不可能你們雇主跟勞工之間有這麼多價你們願意給所以我們一直在講把育嬰價變成彈性輕職價 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
460.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
480.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以生育案養育補貼很重要沒有錯但是要營造一個比這兩個東西還更友善的條件人家才願意生養就是要友善的生兒育女的環境你現在提供的現金補貼當然是看得到你重視它可是你們都挑最便宜形式的給錢就沒了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
481.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
495.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而你們不願意多做一點其他各種優惠和環境配套要讓他進來所以在這裡呢國科會自己有委託研究案我剛剛講少子女化的問題案對策實證調查報告分析顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
496.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
育嬰價的改革雖然有顯著增加多生育胎的機率但是效果集中在所得較低的人身上對高所得的人來講毫無影響那其中一個原因就是因為你們投保薪資45800 天花板在那裡所以投保薪資上限還是很低 沒有幼嬰 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
548.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那主計總處2020有統計照顧未滿12歲的子女而離職的女性的離職風險是男性的2.7倍那從育嬰留庭和津貼制度的設計還是沒有辦法解決從這個女性又要兼顧家庭又要這個兼顧工作的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
567.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
然後女性在這種狀況如果要選擇的話有時候就會讓她女性工作的技能和年資沒有辦法有效累積所以讓女性的勞動者她會去堅持還有做那種part-time以外就變成低薪化堅持化和低薪化 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
568.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
如果不離職不能離開場他要去做的工作可能要照顧家庭要照顧要工作他要做兼職然後有可能還會低薪化所以監察院國家人權委員會在家庭照顧責任和婚姻變故對婦女就業和經濟安全的影響當中有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
596.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
不少女性為了照顧家庭不得不選擇網拍、外送等時薪制兼職的工作但是缺少底薪的保障收入不穩定導致年老時處於高貧窮的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
603.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
622.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以在這種狀況裡面我們的女性勞參率跌下來了25到29歲本來是九成你剛剛講了你看她40到44歲來到78.6%的參與率可是同樣的年齡層我講過一遍一遍又一遍在瑞典在德國 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
624.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
653.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
40到44歲的女性勞動力的參與率比25到29歲還要更高瑞典是高出7.6%德國是高了4%人家是怎麼做那我如果要這樣講的話其實我有一個建議啦你們的這種身家多一個月的津貼然後說多五天的這個什麼家庭詐是不是用那個小時來計算不如這樣子講 我也獻策 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
654.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
669.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
如果是經濟安全考量 第一個 你們去大量蓋親子住宅這種親子社會住宅 因為經濟壓力最大 就來自於買房和租房大量的親子住宅 打五折 不是八折的社會住宅這個不是勞動部 這個也不是某一個單位 社福部門能解決這是請全國國家的力量要來做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
680.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
703.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
打五折的親子社會住宅第二一站式服務在裡面公共托育完整所以讓大家在這裡面經濟的壓力降低了公共托育承擔起了這個爸爸媽媽所最擔心的公共托育公共幼兒園全部都進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
704.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
709.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
還要加上彈性輕職假這樣子讓女性在家庭和職場在經濟和養小孩之間我們不做選擇幼稚才要做選擇政策照顧不周才需要做選擇國家不負責任國家不負責任政府不負責任才要做選擇我們女性叫我們女性生小孩跟工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
749.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我不做選擇我兩者通通要那你給我們一戰式的服務親子打五折的親子社會住宅給我們彈性親子假這樣你看這樣有意願可以有想要生育嗎朝初都打五折政府企業在大應該有啦應該有喔你們都不這樣說你們都不這樣說要給內政部來參選 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
758.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
764.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不是這樣而已 你來看我們的國發會主委說什麼啦少子女化的原因是什麼少子女化的原因在這裡啦國發會講的 國發會主委講的啦最大的問題是沒有找到理想對象這個新聞我也是最近才知道欸真的很訝異啊 你覺得你可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
784.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
793.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在座的大家包括次長各單位的業務單位台灣小子女化的主要原因是因為沒有找到理想的對象嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
796.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
816.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以我的理解新加坡政府是最近這裡每一年都編預算去找各個民間團體去辦所謂的那個未婚男女的聯誼這個我們支持我們也大量的鼓勵政府可以這麼做可是我們如果討論少子女化的原因你會歸則於最大原因是這個嗎有這麼幼稚嗎好啦再下一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
823.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
839.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
國科委委託了這個找人家來研究啦少子女化問題案對策實證調查報告花了多少錢啊兩個案子都委託台大經濟系去做啦兩個案子都兩千兩百萬加起來四千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
841.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
859.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
然後提了一個少子女化問題案對策實證調查分析案報告他說台灣平均年工時2020高於OECD的1742顯示已婚全職者平均一天工作 已婚的喔 全職的喔平均一天要工作九個小時通勤一個小時 十個小時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
860.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
876.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
已婚的女性晚上加班 夜間工作平均1.1個小時男性晚上加班 已婚男性1.85個小時所以25到39歲已婚的人 夜間工時平均要1.6個小時他怎麼陪伴小孩 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
878.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
892.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
工作壓力 長工時 育嬰假沒有彈性使用上還有性別的差異所以讓女性在婚育過程當中承受較大的職癌中斷的風險而男性因為工作壓力和夜間工時長家庭互動時間不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
894.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
917.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以青年會傾向於申請更短期的育嬰假所以我們需要的是這個育嬰假要讓他彈性化而生育後的母親他的勞動參與率跟工資皆明顯下降而且持續時間很長所以這個對男性影響不大 對女性影響很大所以要兼顧家庭所以我有禁慾生育率跟女性就業率的正相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
919.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
942.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你生育率要提高但是女性的就業率也要提高兩個都要正相關而這樣的有效的政策才能夠讓家長女性勞動率蓄留職場才可以避免制度誤導女性離職去育兒所以我們在講這個事你要看下一頁勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
944.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
972.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
不是 國發會國發會提出的政策建議是什麼針對未婚男性 男女啦要建置身份認證的交友平台這個我有點懷疑啊如果年輕 應該問年輕男女民間那麼多 你去參加然後政府也建置這個我們都不反對而且我們認為也可以做 而且應該要做但是會是國家重大的政策嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
975.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
991.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
針對未婚青年重大的政策是做這樣子嗎然後增加家庭和育兒支持他講到投保薪資上限要拿掉拿更多那這樣子你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
992.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1017.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
給父要更多喔所以他認為你們的給父是不夠的然後還有你看怎麼樣增加年輕人願意生小孩的意願放寬家事幫傭移工幫助育兒工作如果要放寬家事移工放寬育兒工作那我們還需要在這裡討論公托還需要在這裡討論這個津貼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1021.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1037.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個有沒有階級化的需求 難怪從國發會 國科會 到勞動部 到政府都一講說我要放寬家事幫傭大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 大家年輕人都可以用家事幫傭喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1052.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1055.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
說這些都太橫了啦所以我在講意思是他們下一頁是什麼政策目標下一頁有嗎 沒有了 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1062.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1084.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以在這裡家事幫庸可以解決男女分工的問題家事幫庸可以解決所有年輕父母不生的問題然後讓他們願意生 但願如此啊說到這都太狠了開4000萬元 研究出來政策給政府的政策是這樣 放寬家事幫庸然後去做一個交友平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1089.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1111.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
台大走的然後國發會奉為歸納勞動部放寬家事帮傭奉為歸納這樣子可以解決嗎我要說都不用了我這個不去做政策研究我告訴你我剛才說了 再說一次打五折的 親子社會住宅以戰士的服務社區裡面全面的從0到6歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1114.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1125.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
托兒 托育 全面一站式服務然後我剛剛講的育嬰留庭不給雇主麻煩 也不給政府麻煩把它變成放寬到8歲然後以天 甚至以小時為單位可以去請領的彈性親職假這才是正本清源啦 別說那麼多啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1139.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1156.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
經濟問題要改觀住宿的問題要可進性高要可負擔性打五折的社會住宅啦就是這樣子這樣可以了嗎我們那個關於那個迂流艇還有家庭照顧架更彈性化的方向我們現在全部都在研議中 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1158.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1180.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你這個幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月沒好啊幾年一個月九十萬人跟我們兩萬人看得到吃得到其他八十幾萬人看不到了也不會贏用不到了所以不要那種那一種都是就都照顧你們就是我也不曉得是什麼一回事好啦不說了謝謝 |