| IVOD_ID |
159700 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159700 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-27T11:01:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-27T11:16:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9001dfa7131bf5b6596b4606480da88618db9e3eaef4bc790336e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:01:32 - 11:16:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
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麻煩秘書長 全序部部長委員長全序部長 你兩個在那裡開工 開工我要叫你起床我忘記了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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我想兩個問題來就教就是說我們這一次我看你們的草案裡面有提出新增的公務人員職場霸凌及兩大過免職這件事情我特別要來就教全序部現在提出公務人員考機法的一個修正草案那增列了一次及兩大過免職的一個條件然後公務人員保障法這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
40.074 |
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一般大家講說在定義整個職場的霸凌當然是要去建構一個防治跟處理的一個機制那我想是不是先請這個全區部部長來說明一下你們這兩個修法的一個草案你們具體的修正後你發現有什麼樣一個區別沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
59.929 |
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保訓會的保訓會的那我的我是跟著保訓會來的修了烤雞法那就好玩了那就是兩個法裡面你怎麼樣讓它會比較更明確這個才是一個重點你像譬如說我們去談到目前以大家現在在看到的保護食物上的共通的要件都是在講說霸凌都是在講說你發生在工作場所或者說有一個持續性或者說一個敵意的一個行為或者身心壓力的一個傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.903 |
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104.083 |
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大部分都是在談這些本來的法案裡面講到性侵或者是酒駕這個法律上它本身有很嚴格的規定我相信這兩個要件沒有問題可是霸凌這個部分我看就 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
105.114 |
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133.633 |
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大家就開始灰啊你知道嗎實務上到底現在有沒有一個共通的一個要件相對來講霸凌的定義確實是比性侵性殺或者是酒駕比較模糊啦不過這就是保障法要處理的一個意思所以我的意思就是因為你一個草案要推出來我這邊是特別來做一個叮嚀跟提醒你說性犯罪 酒駕 毒駕這個形式的一個法源裡面跟社會上這些都有共識沒有問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
135.174 |
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155.536 |
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但執掌爸你這個定義很模糊啊你適應上你怎麼樣去把這些比較核心的濃縮到最後的一個共通要件我相信這才是這一支修法的核心的一個挑戰譬如說你注意我往下一頁來看一下就是說那這一些呢我們過去從實務上我們去看到了 |
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157.054 |
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從不管是法院或者是行政部門大家在做裁處的時候都會去講到說你連續積極的行為就侵害到人格權 民意權 健康權認為是霸凌的一個核心但是這個行為包括它很多行為的太陽還有它的次數 頻率 人數損害的權益 動機跟目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.192 |
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207.249 |
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你看上一次那個整個勞動部喔說說平常都沒人發電都沒事都沒事 職場霸凌都沒有事那一社會上這個媒體一披露以後那甚至於火一燒起來以後人家搞砸嘛 人家搞砸嘛要不然 一個炒下去 馬上就要收押啦這個案子後續怎麼樣我不太清楚啦但是我的意思就是說非常兩極啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
231.708 |
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行政部門在看待這種事情是非常兩極啊所以我希望說我們這一次啊這個兩部草案的時候啊呵呵啊 看會不會有辦法可以這樣送到社會可以接受啦尤其是我看最主要也不是說霸凌的問題啦最主要是事情發生以後這個過程的調查的一個程序啊那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
234.192 |
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263.496 |
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到底這個程序在做調查的時候有沒有符合公平或者說在整個過程裡面對當事人 因為動不動一成立以後你就剛好兩大國就免職了那也不要因為說這是一個高度的新聞事件然後對一般公務人來講的話這個差不多卡到80的職場 寶座每天衝的比較大沒死也都破條命我不曉得您的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.735 |
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284.439 |
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跟委員報告這個保障法跟安慰辦法是這個我們目前呢新增的部分呢特別都是針對職場霸凌那第一個就是委員您剛剛提到職場霸凌的定義那個在這個保障法裡面呢就會直接明確的把它界定那也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.781 |
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300.276 |
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參酌這個法院的判例那同時我們也已經分析了請這個學者分析過去所有霸凌案件至少到保訓會來的他成立跟不成立的一些要件還有法院是怎麼判的所以呢我們也會有一條呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.337 |
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316.291 |
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特別去針對說他審酌各式各樣的原因那這當中包含除了持續性以外呢他如果是一次性雖然他放在不法侵害可是他也如果也很嚴重的話呢那當然他也是屬於其中的目前我們是朝這個方案規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
317.532 |
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345.874 |
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那第二個就是說這個有關於調查程序的部分這是我們這一次裡面很重要的一個重點那在機關的調查程序裡面呢它的外部的委員的組成我們做了非常嚴格的規範那至少都要二分之一二分之一都是外部的那如果它今天是機關首長的話那它的外部的委員呢至少要超過三分之二那如果說後續那還有不服或是還有爭議的話呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.615 |
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357.662 |
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也會透過這個我們保訊會他不管來救濟或在行政裁罰的過程裡面呢我們都會有介入調查程序面是我們非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
378.374 |
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393.319 |
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變成事業沒發展的時候 放在公務人員在職場裡面讓他職場上受到霸凌可是呢 又很擔心 我很擔心新聞事件一燒起來的時候你們又濫權 然後到最後又去傷及到無辜 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
415.402 |
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本席的重點是在於說你應該去明確的規範來建立一個調查的依據你去確保正當的一個法律程序這個都涉及到人權的保障就是因為剛好要提這兩個法律我特別在這邊做提醒 是 謝謝委員那另外我想要針對這一次我看你們考試院在2月13號 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
417.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
443.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
去拜會了行政院的卓院長其實從五權分立來看的話這個是一個利益良善的一個願計的溝通可是這樣的溝通裡面我看重點也不在於只是禮貌性的一個拜會應該是說怎麼樣去跟行政院來實際的推動我國公務人事制度的一個改革還有就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
443.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
451.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
讓國家考試跟用人制度的一個與時俱進啊我不知道秘書長你們拜會後具體的成果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
473.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
跟委員報告就是這拜會意義就是在於我們國家特殊的這個政府體制之下因為我們把考試跟用人切開那人事的法制跟管理也切開所以他需要兩院之間去密切的協調合作那這次具體成果我們有列出幾個比較急迫性的議題比如說我們的醫護人員的考試的品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
503.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個需要投注資源並且跟交易部跟衛福部來合作第二個部分是針對有些入局不足額的比較嚴重的一些高風險的類科這幾個類科我們要有一個跨部會的機制來進行其他幾個議題我不一一列舉但是委員關心的進度就是我們目前有幾個機制都已經正在啟動當中所以我們跟衛福部或是跟人總還有跟工程會這邊都有相關的合作機制一直在滾動往前走 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
503.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
518.653 |
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我去看了你們的新聞稿,我去看了你們去講到說搶救現在的醫護人才,黃江秘書長剛剛提到的還有有關機關搶救工人人報考書,如土木類的一個類科跟人事行政總署組成一個工作圈來加強這個合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
520.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
前面兩個我可以想像啦 前面兩個我可以想像啦畢竟考試院是一個伴侶考試的一個單位啊一個一定是針對需求來設計但第三個我就非常有想法啦 第三個就是說你過去這個考試院跟人總都說 兩個公雞生不出蛋一個負責考試 一個負責這個員額的一個評鑑啦其實兩個單位都非常需要相關的一個單位來一起來配合 否則喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
548.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.328 |
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孤掌難鳴啦 我跟你講所以我今天特別要講出來的就是這兩個單位這樣息息相關公務人員的一個考試喔那只是個科技而已重點不是在考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
561.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
是看有沒有辦法把握到找到真的有需要的人你看我這一次我們這個運動部要去成立組織法修訂以後我都還非常有感覺就是說你這個成立之後要怎麼去找那個人 適當的有專才運動部 什麼叫運動部那叫什麼要叫什麼人 把什麼人錄下來不然你成立一個運動組織在做 不是只要升格而已你也要有專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
590.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這課要怎麼課啊?不中這要怎麼課?必須要找人,要找什麼人說憲學院放大運動部不是這個人放在教育部,不是放在法務部所以我要請教一下你們的高見,就是說公務人員真的你要去通過考試可以找到這些專業的人嗎?就算你脫離這個公務體系,你到民間去找都不一定找得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
638.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我都覺得都不一定找得到所以你說組織改造有新的發展的一個方向可是你這樣拖下去的公務人員如果觀念沒有改變專業沒有去跟上的話你整個組織改造我看這都會很麻煩所以我不知道說組織改造要怎麼樣才有意義拖下去之後我覺得任何的一個行政部門都一樣具備這個資格以後沒有再去做在職進修不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
645.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
661.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不好啦 大家去問一般行政 無法等 什麼無法等所以呢請教秘書長就是說這部分我們公務人員的在職進修跟訓練你的藍圖到底是什麼有沒有辦法再做細緻的一個規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
664.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
692.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
跟委員報告在職進修的部分他就表示用人機關的職權所以他是人總的業務那也是各機關自己也要去努力的部分所以我才說你們跟人總那個部分如果委員講沒有錯就是說教考訓用就是從教育端培養人才到考試做人才的篩選但篩選的不能全部靠考試還有後端的訓練來強化他的那個符合他工作這個核心職能的能力後面的用人機關的角色所以他的確是一個需要去跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
694.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
708.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我剛剛看吳宗憲招委對你們提出了很多叮嚀啊那個幾乎喔 那如果來拜託行政院會比較快找你們覺得有一點文不對題但是你們也是 其實你們雖然叫考試院啊你們也定義是一個考試行政而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
708.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
723.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那其實講句實話這是因為是五權憲法啊不然你們跟行政部門有什麼差別你們真的是看起來沒有像實質上的一個差別但我最後要特別提醒的就是說其實很多很多現在的層級裡面你們拉到高到 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
724.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
739.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
兩院喔 但就不能只是說解決眼前緣兒不足的一個問題啦也必須要去考量到整體人力退休跟轉型的一個策略啦我為什麼這樣提出來就是說你們現在喔對各職系裡面年齡結構偏高報考人數年年下降再職人員異動力也偏高這個部分喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
747.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
759.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
監測的部分到底有沒有做到有沒有做得好每一年你們應該去啟動對於整個人才儲備跟用人的調整有沒有什麼樣的一個策略這是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
762.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
786.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我能提這個想法我很贊成但現況上這樣就是說我們也是有幾個預警的機制比如說考試端這邊的這個錄取狀況或分發狀況那另外在人力的現場管理上面如果有特別的流失我想人事的一條邊這邊一定也會有相關的預警那過去只要碰到問題其實大家會有一個協調解決的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
788.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
813.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
但是當然就是說一時獲得緩解但是如果後面出現像土木工程這種比較結構性的大的變化的話它現在的確會變成一個比較難棘手的議題所以我們才要來跟這個跨部門你剛提到那個土木工程的部分這個也不是第一天第二天發生的問題你這個錄取不足不是短期的一個現象那代表了什麼人才流失跟制度老化的問題都存在都沒有改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
814.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
842.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為他現在現場流失的速度非常快所以他的報缺的增長速度遠遠超過我們錄取名額增加的速度所以這個我這樣跟你建議就是說你們這個直系年齡結構過高的或者報考的人數年年下降在職人員流動率的一個偏高的部分你們確實應該去啟動這個整個人才的一個儲備跟用年策略的一個調整積極去做一個應對好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
844.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
868.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我覺得是蠻好的啦這兩個 其中兩個題目我一定會跟蘇俊榮講因為資料庫都在他那裡他可以透過人事一條編的方式真的可以算得出每一個機關那兩個一跟三年度的變化那透過人事一條編隨時提供給機關首長我想這是一個最快的方式這就我跟您說的啦兩隻公雞都到最後又不會下蛋了啦生不出蛋來了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
868.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
889.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
讓他下來 我會跟他講這是長期存在的問題啊我跟吳宗憲、張偉講的層次不一樣啦兩個人討論議題不一樣 可是回歸到最後就是你們兩個考試院 沒辦法你們叫做院理 叫做人總理但是這個沒有去合作去解決不行啦 好不好好 謝謝謝謝莊委員我們稍後再讓莊委員 |