| IVOD_ID |
159698 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159698 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-27T10:44:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-27T11:01:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db90048624022f3905ffeb4606480da88618db9e3eaef4bc79033c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:44:55 - 11:01:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
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好 我們麻煩秘書長請秘書長委員長好 那我想請問一下 |
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考試院這邊就是一個很簡單的問題我想說我們提到公務員的中立規定的時候其實我們很清楚就是目前的作為是把常任文官跟政務官其實是在行政中立上面是有一個區別嘛對不對那我先想請教一下考試院公務員下班或者是假日可不可以去參加候選人的造勢大會或是為特定候選人站台 |
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54.855 |
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然後喊動算 可以這樣嗎我請部長來說明好 請部長中立法裡面還是有規範它好像第九條之後還是有規範不管上下班時間 工人不可以做的行為是 好 那部長這個是指常任文官對不對對 沒錯好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.941 |
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其實今天我是覺得就常任務官的部分是這樣規定沒有錯但是呢就像剛剛秘書長也有提到的政務官的部分確實依照目前的中立法它是好像是排除掉政務官的適用但是呢我想請問一下那政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務就法律的精神 |
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97.785 |
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121.29 |
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我想就法律精神政務官不可以動用這個公家的資源去從事他政黨的一個活動或者政治性的活動我想這是一個作為一個政務官應該有自己的倫理的規範我的意思是說就依照法律的精神政務官到底有沒有行政中立的義務要看委員界定的行政中立的內涵是什麼 |
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122.401 |
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因為根據我們法律裡面 我們行政中立 老實說它是一個比較廣泛的一個界定啦並我們沒有真正界定做行政中立法真正的行政中立法裡面絕大部分是講參與政治活動啦好 那沒關係啦 這樣好了那我來直接跟你們說齁其實公務員的行政中立法並不是說 |
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並不是說政務官沒有行政中立的義務而是說他要求是另立專法所以我查到了公務人員行政中立法第二條他的立法理由其實說得很清楚他主要是提到就是說因為政務官他是屬於政治任命或是民選所產生他跟常任文官有別所以這個部分他以另專法來規範 |
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168.82 |
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對不對但是呢我國現在對於政務官完全沒有專法嘛之前有幾個早案提出來但是目前都沒有立法成功那我想請問一下現在考試院這邊有什麼想法就政務官的部分 |
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184.439 |
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我跟你們報告 政務官這個體系我知道在社會上有不同的討論不過考試院根據憲法執掌是負責公務人員那畢竟政務人員並不是依法考試及格任用的人所以如果有這方面的一個議題 需要專責立法這應該會是屬於行政院的推測沒有啊 你考試院在101年9月28號曾經有送過一個政務人員卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.009 |
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草案啊當初曾經有送過這不是說跟你們無關啊不過行政院那邊後來有一些意見就是說政務人員應該是由行政院這邊因為畢竟所有的政務人員大部分都在行政院裡面負責而且包括地方政府相關議題所以我的意思是回到憲法本身的那個那個考試院執掌就是公務人員這個概念的話我想這是兩院要繼續去做討論的部分到底如果真的有必要要往這邊立法的話是由哪一個 |
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236.972 |
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251.436 |
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院來負責不是 這當然有這個必要性嘛因為我剛剛講了中立法的第二條它的立法理由已經說得很清楚了政務官不是不用福音行政中立他是說他要另以專法來論斷來那個立法 |
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254.477 |
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283.858 |
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他是說另外要有專法而不是說他沒有行政中立的義務結果呢現在大家的解釋變成說這個行政中立只有事務官常樂文官要政務官沒有現在變成這樣子啊那以我所了解的民進黨的做法我們常常講法律是道德的最後一道防線但是現在民進黨把法律跟道德拉成一樣然後他的作為甚至還低於道德低於法律違法只要不被抓到民進黨都覺得OK啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
284.278 |
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312.537 |
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那在這個角度來說因為我最近看到行政院變成是全國最大競選總部行政院變成全國最大的大二霸的總部那這樣就不對了嘛這樣子政務官他也是領國家的錢不要講別的啦你今天你搭車出去坐公務車出去你的水戶出去你的助理出去這些都是國家的經費所養的人嘛國家經費所支付的那你說政務官不是一般的公務員所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.197 |
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323.201 |
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所以也不歸你們管也不歸什麼然後你們在101年也曾經提過法案希望就政務官的部分規範就現在不能說現在反而又不管你們的事了嗎應該是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
326.538 |
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343.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
是不是由考試院來提出政務委員法這件事情一直是考試院跟行政院之間的爭論那我回到行政中立的部分就是說政務官也不是如果委員所說並不是完全沒有行政中立的相當規範就是剛剛部長也有講如果你動用機關資源的這個部分其實一樣不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
364.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那個不分事務官政務官其實都不可以做這件事但是就參與某些政治活動而言政務官跟事務官的規範就會不一樣這個歷來一直中央地方的政務官慢慢也形成了一定的這個這個部分我了解我也可以接受就是政務官跟常任文官他們在行政中立上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
364.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
程度有所區別 這個我都可以接受也不會很無理的要求說絕對兩個要拉到一樣但是我要一直在講最近這段時間發生的事情譬如說行政院假借政策宣傳這個名目就全台灣到處搞了在那邊喊大罷免還有立法委員在上面唱歌要罷免怎麼樣然後他所用的是行政院所謂的下鄉的政策宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
420.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那這個東西叫我怎麼相信它是一個行政中立的概念好 那之前那個草屯的政長補選嘛那在那個補選的會場的時候我們的那個政次 那個誰 那個陳時中還有我們現在衛福部的次長林靜儀不也去那邊大呼小叫嗎那這兩個人 他是政務官沒有錯但是呢 他卻在現場 在那邊助選然後在那邊講一些有的沒的 甚至在講罷免的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
421.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
441.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是我就想回到我剛剛說的這些人去那邊他也是掛他的官銜去他並不是用他個人的名義去再來他去的時候就我剛剛講的他要不要使用他的公務車他要不要使用他的隨扈那有一些像部會首長級的出門也是會帶隨扈那這些也不就是公 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
442.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
463.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
公共的費用嗎所以我在這邊講啦我剛剛回到剛剛我說的我不是說政務官他對於新任總理的要求強度要跟常任文官一樣但是是不是考試院這邊你能夠去思考一個點既然你們101年就已經提過政務人員法草案那 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
464.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
483.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
可不可以趕快提出來就政務官的部分有關行政中立的部分要趕快法治化要加以規範而不是像現在被很多人剛好抓到你這個點反正法無明文嘛法無明文我就幹我的啊就我剛剛講的在民進黨執政之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
484.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
500.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他的法律跟他的道德觀是拉到跟法律一樣我們講法律是道德的最後一道防線結果他現在拉到一樣甚至他的作為比法律還不如只要違法沒被抓一切都好那這個當然兩位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
兩位是政務官嘛那我當然我講這個你們也不方便回答什麼這我都可以理解我自己也做過政務官我自己也做過所以我很能夠清楚政務官跟常任無我做過常任無官我也做過政務官所以我了解這兩個的區別在哪裡但是是不是考試院這邊你們要趕快提出專法出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
545.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
要讓我國的政務官去有所規範因為這些政務官都是常任文官的長官我們都知道嘛在我國的體制裡面政務官通常都是常任文官的長官那這些常任文官他們在職場上面他看到他的長官就去那裡站台就去那裡喊大罷免就去那裡喊那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
546.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
557.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
為特定的候選人 特定政黨的候選人在那邊助選然後在那邊講其他人非同政黨的人的壞話那請問一下底下的這些常任文官他們的想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
558.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
以人性的角度去出發很多常任務官他會認為說要巴結他的長官他可能求升監或求工作更順利他可能會去巴結他的長官這是全世界各國都有的人性的問題這樣子如果我們放任這些政務官毫無節制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
580.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
608.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
違反行政中立的話 那這不對啊更何況我剛剛提到了中立法的第二條立法理由就講不是不用政務官不是不用去遵守行政中立而是要另以專法來設置因為事務官跟常任文官跟政務官就是不一樣嘛但是你們現在卻這個法就完全沒有提出來你們可不可以趕快像101年那樣趕快把草案提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
616.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為每一屆考試院對這個都有一些各自的想法委員的意見我會把它帶回去院裡面來做演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
617.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
636.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那你們需要多久的時間這個沒有辦法保證因為這一題因為一方面第一個它涉及到職權的爭論這個歷來都沒有解決第二個就是所謂政務人員法裡面的規範其實除了剛剛委員講到類似行為規範以外它還有很多很多的面向對 但是民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
640.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
668.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我知道你在講什麼但是你們在101年十幾年前就曾經提過草案出來我現在並不是麻煩你們從無到有而是你們原本十幾年前就有那個法案出來了那這十幾年我國的文官制度並沒有大型的變革當年你就提了出草案但現在你跟我說因為關係到很多所以沒有辦法提這個變成說我沒有辦法接受這樣的結論啦是 民主黨這會期你們有沒有打算要提 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
669.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
684.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
目前這個沒有在我們的立法計畫裡面,我們有其他的優先順序我們現在就是保障法跟考級法、安慰班法,這是我們這個會計的重點可是我覺得這樣子等於是推卸任務這個議題的確在院裡一直都是就像你們剛說的,到底行政院該提還是你們該提,你說不知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
692.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
713.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
其實我跟你講 上個會期立法院就曾經遇過幾個法案 行政院卡在那裡卡很久到最後立法院提自己的版本 很多立委提自己的版本然後要表決的時候 行政院才趕快塞法案進來難道搞到最後又要讓立法院逼著行政機關來做事情嗎難道一定要走到這一步嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
715.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
734.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我跟你講去年很多法案都是這樣嘛都是立法院逼著行政機關把法案送過來不然行政院一卡卡很多年吹哨者保護法也是啊要不是我們拿我們的版本出來一直逼著他他完全不動嘛那我在這邊跟兩位說明一下我真的覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
757.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不管是政務官或是事務官領的都是國家的薪水政務官又是大部分事務官的長官結果階級較低的事務官他有嚴格的行政中立結果位階較高的政務官就完全不受任何的限制這邏輯是錯誤的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
759.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
784.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以我剛剛有提到了 既然我們的公務員的行政中立法裡面他第二條已經說得很清楚了他並不是政務官不用保持行政中立 而是需要另立專法就我們現在的政務官卻以沒有專法當作藉口所以他不需要行政中立 他上台胡說八道亂扯一通亂講一通 然後他也是運用國家的資源讓他去那個現場 去那邊胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
786.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
811.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
當然啦他沒有拿他部會的預算出來來開這個他有沒有用公務資源這個要看個案的現況到底是什麼所以我就跟你說不是啦我跟你講你查到最後一堆都不是這樣啦你講一個隨戶會不會跟著他走這也是一個問題我知道隨戶這個狀況就是說隨戶是不管他在就是他對他的安全有責任的話那他這個所以我提出來這個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
812.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
827.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我提出來這個就是說我剛剛講的政務官跟常任農官事務官之間他們對行政中立的要求程度可以不一樣我100%接受也贊成但是政務官的行政中立不能完全沒有任何規範而讓現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
830.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
858.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
的很多政務官他現在上台胡說八道亂講一通好像都沒事情那這樣子的話他底下的事務官們會怎麼去思考去看這個問題所以這個部分我想說要麻煩你們注意一下那另外我想請你們兩個月內能夠提一個資料給我因為我剛本來要提但時間上面來不及提就是我希望說全國公務員的待遇跟全國薪資那個水平的差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
860.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
885.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
能夠兩個月內給我一份報告我想了解一下之間的差異如果要回到實際上的薪資這個真的是要人事總書的資料才有我們並沒有這個資料我們的待遇在法治上是行政院主管那不然這樣好了這個部分因為我們本來是希望說考試院這邊提不然我再一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
887.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
902.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
好好沒問題好那這部分我再去跟他們提那這個部分你們有去注意到嗎因為我後來看了一下那個初等考試初等考試如果一年收14個月年收入不到50萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
904.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
925.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
本考試是沒有啦不過我們應該這樣講我們現在初等考試的人非常非常少我跟委員報告這個我現在可以因為我當過人事長我大概有知道這些資料應該這樣講我們的平均的年所得初任的高考三等的年所得現在大概應該有到70萬左右啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
928.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
954.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為現在最近的資料應該是這樣那個別的領域確實跟民間薪資比較要個別去譬如說檢察官怎麼跟律師比譬如說土木工程跟外面比這個是更細的部分如果用全國平均數那是一個比較的方式我想我這樣跟委員報告就是至少薪資的部分你們也有在注意嗎那詳細的是不是沒關係我跟人總他們要但是你們自己也要注意到薪資的這個部分以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
954.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
975.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
甚至資訊人員的那個差距跟外面的差距很大我國政府機關裡面的資訊人員跟外面民間的資訊人員的那個數據差距 資訊差距太大你這樣找不到人啦 完全找不到總署也一直在想 已經做了一些調整的措施但是還是有一些差距 我的要解釋這樣子好 好 好 時間關係 那這樣子就謝謝你們 |