| IVOD_ID |
159650 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159650 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-27T09:14:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-27T09:28:36+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae27c1b40c0db9004b47494f19828051b4606480da88618dab2aca70ba98bac04318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:14:46 - 09:28:36 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長其他的部長或主委有需要隨時上來協助 不要客氣委員長秘書長好 上個會期我們通過了新的考試院正副院長跟考試委員我必須要老實說 雖然在整個詢答的過程當中或書面回覆的過程當中我們是有一些保留那不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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不管是政府院長還是很多考試委員他們對接下來的改革在尋答的過程當中都做出了蠻莊嚴的承諾所以我們也本於最大的善意最後台灣民眾黨立院黨團我們只有最後只有否決掉其中一個人然後考試院政府院長就順利的上任那同意權的票頭歸頭啊我們該監督的事情啊是絕對不能夠鬆懈的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
62.185 |
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從上上會期開始我們在第一次詢問的過程當中我相信貴院非常的清楚我很在乎對於公務人員保障法以及公務人員安慰辦法相關的修正因為一個辦法 |
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超過十年沒有修啊,某個程度上面來講,對我們所有的公務人員非常的不公平他也沒有辦法提供啊,必要的保護當然安慰辦法它本身有結構性的問題啊,所以在上次統一權尋答的過程當中啊,我有問周鴻憲院長那那個時候他是被提名的人,然後他承諾 |
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會送來,剛剛在您的報告裡面,你說最晚五月底會送來嗎?這個承諾會收吧?是,會。絕對沒有問題嗎?我想應該沒有問題。好,我希望盡快。好,我跟你說明為什麼盡快。因為你如果拖到五月中還是五月底的話,這個會擠。 |
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就不可能完成審議嘛我們整個就要拖到下個會期嘛所以我希望考試院那邊盡快只要你們送來了以後目前台灣民眾黨立院黨團我們所提出的公務人員保障法也好針對有關於霸凌我們所提的專法也好我希望到時候可以並案審查啦這樣有你們的觀點有你們的版本希望會比較完整但拜託不要拖 |
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因為到時候一拖再拖,一拖再拖,犧牲的是對公務人員的保障,這樣的觀點您贊成吧?這樣我瞭解,贊成你贊成嗎?對,因為這也是院長的承諾好,沒有問題啊,那因為你們在二月的時候啊,就預告了一個安慰辦法修正草案今天在書面報告也講裡面有處理職場霸凌的問題嘛,這個我瞭解但它畢竟啊,它就是一個辦法 |
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165.33 |
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也就是說公務人員保障法母法的規定跟執法的規定兩者之間要有非常好的勾起要不然現在結構性的問題沒有辦法解決這樣的觀點祕書長贊成吧贊成那我看安慰辦法雖然針對職場霸凌有做一些規範但是上一次我在請教周宏憲院長的時候他說有關於職場霸凌要提升到法律位階 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.225 |
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所以這裡的法律未接的意思是說你們在公務員保障法裡面針對職場霸凌會有相關的專章或者是條文去處理嗎那我現在的問題就來了因為我們現在還沒有看到你們公務員保障法的草案但你們先急著預告安慰辦法所以母法跟職法能不能夠勾起的這件事情以在預告的期間來講你們徵求公眾的意見 |
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我相信啦關心這件事情的公眾他們會跟我遇到相同的困難那個困難是說我看完了安慰辦法裡面但母法怎麼規定兩者之間怎麼勾起完全看不到這樣子的預告有意義嗎呃 |
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安慰辦法因為它是辦法它需要經過預告的程序啦是啊這個我理解啊這兩個法律跟這個辦法必須要搭配在一起是沒有錯那我現在沒看到母法你們公告安慰辦法這樣有意義嗎我想就是我們院裡面現在對於這個修法的速度正在緊鑼密鼓的加緊來進行當中我先提醒一件事啦剛我這樣的詢問過程當中我相信秘書長可以接受啦主委應該也聽得很清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
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在整個規範的結構上公務員保障法跟安慰辦法母法跟子法要怎麼搭配其實要一起看我們才會知道規範的密度夠不夠嘛過去所發生的問題是不是還繼續存在嘛那為什麼我會這樣講因為之前大家也知道安慰辦法因為母法沒有授權的規定所以沒有罰則這沒有用嘛之前花錢請學者做的研究報告已經清楚的凸顯出來這個問題 |
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那導致我現在在看這個安慰辦法你們預告的安慰辦法的時候其實我有很多困惑譬如說我有什麼樣子的困惑申訴職長帕林遭到追殺違反了法律效果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.591 |
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330.566 |
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我在安慰辦法看不到我完全看不到所以就凸顯出來了剛剛我所講的問題你要處罰就要在母法但你現在母法要修成什麼樣子大家看不到單獨的公告安慰辦法這樣有意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.767 |
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354.522 |
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因為我相信所有看這個條文的人只要認真看啦不是隨便看一看應該都會跟我想產生相同的問題一模一樣的事情就是基層申訴違反職安然後吹哨者被追殺他的法律效果是什麼在安慰辦法裡面一樣沒有在母法裡面有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
355.714 |
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378.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
母法裡面有母法裡面有嘛所以針對我們之前台灣民眾黨我們認為在母法裡面要徵定罰則細部的設計可以討論方向上考試院是贊成的嗎是 會設計罰則是嗎好 我希望你們趕快把法案提出來這樣我們討論會比較具體啦我們會盡快那要不然我們現在要討論一個很空洞的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
379.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為我完全沒有看到你們的修正草案長什麼樣子那希望這一次因為這個會期剛開始的時候我要給考試院一點肯定你們的副院長帶著考試委員來台灣民眾黨黨團拜會那我覺得善意的針對接下來的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
427.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
表達誠意承諾要去履行改革的承諾這件事情這個基本的態度啊非常非常的重要那也不會啊去辜負我們在上個會期啊投下同意票但我希望承諾做了以後具體的事情要能夠做出來我也拜託秘書長把我今天在這邊詢答的意旨跟我的期待能夠回去跟周院長報告可以嗎是沒有問題可以嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
456.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那這個齁我就趕快期待你們母法趕快伸出來要不然我現在看辦法還是沒有法律效果還是沒有法則我不曉得怎麼評價但我們現在進入第二個重要的主題也就是考機法的修正今天在你們所提出來的書面報告裡面你們針對一些特定事項的專案考機只先放了一個條文就是有關於處罰的條文這個我理解港部長報告我也聽懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
456.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
483.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是我們上個會期啊其實在行使同意權的時候大家非常care的事情是什麼非常care的事情就是過去長久以來僵化的考試制度從2002年開始的時候甲等不可以超過75%那個時候就已經寫得很清楚這件事情事實上要在法律啊做明確的規定但從2002年到現在多久了2002年到現在有23年了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
484.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
504.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們過去的問題還是繼續存在我這樣說沒有錯吧考機制度因為歷來有很多次的變化但每一次變化都有它的爭論那後來這個75%這件事的確是已經有一段時間也的確有它各種不同的意見對啊 但可以清楚的講一件事這沒有法律授權的基礎嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
506.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
516.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法律上沒有明定 是嘛那這個就會對公務員的權益造成非常大的影響嘛2002年的時候上面就寫啦移修正公務人員考機法與明定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
517.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
545.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個時候那個時候是2002年的考試院公布的新聞稿結果稿到現在已經23年了嘛那正是因為這個樣子啊所以我們在行使同意權的時候來看一下包括周鴻憲院長包括許書祥副院長包括邱文彥、鄧家基、呂秋慧、黃東毅每一個人喔在回給台灣民眾黨書面回覆的時候啊說現在的考記制度啊非常的糟糕必須要改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
547.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
572.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個是他們在行使同意權裡面所做的承諾我們發問卷給他們不是發好玩的我問具體的問題就是要有具體的答案而且要有具體的承諾這些承諾都已經做出來了以後接下來的問題也是我們長期以來關心的關等越高 假等越多同一個關等來相互比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
573.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
599.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有落實嗎?減任的 甲等的高達95.96% 健任的82% 委任的74%這些問題我們都反映在我們的問卷上而每一個回答的考試委員也認為這四個問題必須要加以改革下一個問題 針對這件事情的改革目前考試院的修法計畫是什麼?修法計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
601.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
623.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為我今天看到你們的業務報告我完全沒看到你們的修法計畫是什麼沒有錯我跟委員報告考積的一個等地的配置到底要多少比例這個在各個機關都真的有很多不同的一個看法是是是所以我們必須這一點我們非常非常慎重我也了解所以必須跟機關裡面不斷溝通討論那至於要不要入法本身這個事情機關也有不同的一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
652.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那有人甚至認為根本不要設定比例那有人認為說應該要設定比例那回到考積法最重要的一個精神就是核實考核所以核實考核的概念裡面就是說機關裡面部長我打斷一下剛剛你講的那些東西全部都是老生常談過去這幾年聽過很多了現在我現在這是一個事實的狀況我先請保長專注看一下院長副院長考試委員在本院所做的承諾是什麼做了這些承諾要不要履行 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
654.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
672.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
要不要履行我想他們的一個應該是把這個意見帶到給一個詮釋部來了解那我們會再參觀做周圍所以這件事情是詮釋部決定不是考試院決定嗎程序上因為主管法律是詮釋部那詮釋部是考試院下面那我們會把相關意見最後還是要送到詮釋部去我想院裡面的一個討論他們還是有個機制來來交給我們負責處理相關的議題所以你要處理多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
682.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
701.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我只能跟委員報告說這個事情是非常非常複雜議題我沒有 我絕對沒有辦法目前給你一個承諾就是說我什麼時候要送出這個法所以你沒有大解承諾嗎不是啊那我們現在問題就來了嘛考試院院長 副院長 考試委員在行使同意權的時候被對本院所做的承諾照你剛剛的講法是空的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
702.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
723.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他們做承諾沒有用啊我不是說他們承諾沒有用因為你部長沒有要做承諾啊他們是一個意見然後我把這個意見帶到給部裡面部裡面再做充分討論所以你的意思是現在是你決定不是他們決定是不是我想我沒有這個意思所以你需要多久我們會繼續來討論這個事情持續的研議不斷的研議可能研議到這一屆考試委員結束這件事情還是沒處理是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
724.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
753.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我想我已經講得很清楚這是一個很複雜的議題我們一定會努力再持續來跟機關來溝通這個事情所以你需要努力多久?不知道我沒有辦法給你一個一個一個具體的見證我老實這樣講啦我很希望去年啊所有的被提名人就老實的講你今天講的話我沒辦法承諾啊這問題很複雜啊要搞很久啊過去搞23年搞不出來啊接下來在我們任期之內也未必會搞得出來就老實這樣講嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
755.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
769.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就老實這樣講嘛行使同意權講一套同意權過了以後現在怎麼樣變臉喔都不算數喔要持續的研議喔我想委員不應該這樣去解釋他們在那個行使同意權的那個事情來請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
775.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
795.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
今天我講的意見很清楚啦我也不要耽誤其他的時間我相信秘書長聽得很清楚請把我今天詢答的意見回去跟院長副院長還有考試委員報告我的期待非常簡單承諾了要改革就不要再混 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
796.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
820.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不要再用演繹來當藉口要不然大家會很失望覺得騙到手了以後過去做的承諾全部都不算數這樣可以嗎我會把委員意見忠實的轉達過去考試院幾次提出考機法的意見不管是有沒有提到立法院我知道後來又撤回了對就是一邊表示說這就是反映部長剛剛講的確每一次不管往哪個方向走它的確都會引起一些爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
822.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
825.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是我們會盡可能來讓這個制度能夠研議它怎麼樣讓它有更好的轉變 |