| IVOD_ID |
159378 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159378 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-19T11:27:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-19T11:48:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b85199039e6b60b05439fe1519e09d1f6f9ba850061ce775096283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:27:32 - 11:48:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案19案。【報告事項】【如經復議則不予處理】
三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於勞動部主管部分。
【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】） |
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主席 各位大家午安 是不是就交予我們這個洪部長來 請部長 謝謝評委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
18.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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部長好我想今天大家就教很多但我想談一點不一樣的這一點就是說因為我們看到這個名陽大火發生了10個人死亡100多人輕重傷的這個事故還有這個新埔的這個遠東化遷爆炸死亡造成爆炸造成這個多人死亡和受傷的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.329 |
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57.08 |
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那因為新聞被蓋掉了所以當然我特別想要談這個是因為我們發現制度面恐怕還是有一些問題那職安法最大的修正是本人在大概2013年 |
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59.68 |
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74.288 |
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13年修正的嘛那執安法裡面有很多的這個授權的執法交給你們去制定其中有一個叫做製程安全評估定期這個實施辦法那依據執安法的第15條第三項你們去訂了這個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
76.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
81.311 |
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那規範事業單位大概每5年需要重新驗證製程安全評估報告來確保製程危害能反映操作現況而且這種狀況裡面這個製程安全如果一直產生危害那不管是民養的或者是原動化遷的傷亡都特別的嚴重而且還都是很大的跟公安有很大的連結 |
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103.143 |
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121.288 |
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其實對社區來講它也是一個不定時的炸彈那我要談這個制度面是因為因為這個辦法裡面直接講說適用這個辦法你們強制規定了大概就是你們所謂的假類的工作場所但是呢 |
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123.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
138.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
甲類裡面大概有兩大範疇第一個就是石化業第二個就是製造、處置或使用危險物及有害物達勞動檢查法施行細則附表一、附表二規定數量的工作場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
140.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
151.876 |
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你是限縮在這兩項假類這兩項但是我們現在要討論就是說那我簡單先問你遠東新的化纖廠它是屬於辦法中的規範事業單位嗎現在應該看起來不是不是不是它不是就從這個目前的規範裡面不是對啦那民養是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
192.384 |
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那你們覺得這一個要求製程安全要有個評估計劃五年都要做一次然後自行自律然後自行汰換設備自行做安全檢查那你覺得這個遠東新他們這一類的需不需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
207.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
跟文說明我其實自己我們自己有去到因為在遠東新的事件爆發之後我自己也去看相關傷者跟我們其實有去探望確實遠東新的案例他過去其實他是不用申報的對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
208.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
211.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那你覺得需不需要納管我認為需要好那為什麼要講這個是因為我們在今年二月原東興爆炸以後呢你們訂了一個高風險工廠的火災爆炸危害預防指引那你們的適用範圍第一個高風險設備第二個高風險作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
230.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
255.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那顯然看起來這高風險設備所指涉的範圍你們包括火爐、煙囪、加熱裝置及其他亦引起火災的高熱設備化學設備、高壓氣體設備、危險製造處置及使用的設備等等等等然後高風險作業、容階容斷的作業作業從所亦有亦然亦體的蒸汽、可燃性蒸汽或爆炸性粉塵等等等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
257.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
269.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你們這一個高風險工廠火災爆炸的危害預防指引的適用範圍顯然遠遠的大於你們製程安全評估定期實施辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
270.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
282.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這個辦法跟這一個作業指引你覺得適用範圍有沒有必要要統整而且要將你們現行的預防指引的適用範圍全部劃入你安全評估必備的必做的這個範圍裡面署長要講謝謝委員其實委員這邊非常專業那我們15條確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
295.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
312.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
當初定義的邏輯就是讓最高風險的部分要做製程安全評估五年評估一次因為他如果環境改變對啦你們就是鎖定最高風險的那我這次指引就是其實因爲我們第五條本來雇主對他的製程安全就會做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
312.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
327.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
比較細部的評估展開跟預防不過現在有些問題其實我們內部有討論第一個假類的部分就是第15條要不要做一些再把它做比較嚴格把一些再風險再拉進來這是第一個層次第二層次其他還沒拉進來的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
328.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
342.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本來就是僱主依照我們的指引要做他的預防的一些展開那展開之後我們講的結果在後面後段再查核我想是不同城市我們不同風險管理不要講這麼多第一個你就回答我是不是要再擴大納管我們再延續擴大納管以後其實擴大納管也不是讓它涵蓋面更更廣一點然後再來但問題是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
351.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
360.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他做了計劃他必須強迫五年就要做一次的這個治整安全的評估計劃可是這個計劃等於改善嗎等於改善嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
364.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
391.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
做計畫 作文比賽 請專家學者花一筆錢告訴你們 然後這個計畫要向你們申報還要報備吧 備案跟委員報告 制裁安全評估所有國家的機制是一致的公司依照管理系統做制裁安全評估評估之後要做後面的PTCA的檢測那我們當然政府機關是看他的過程中得不得當所以這次我們會發這個指引 那我問你一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
393.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
403.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
民洋大火是不是需要做它儲存很多化學品是高風險的所以顯然看起來製程安全它是納管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
404.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
424.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
包委其實民間大火在前年發生當然是不管是消防法、共產黨輔導法跟我們治安法院官員的畫面也都在做檢討那這個部分當初它是低爆、漏爆所以沒有進入我們的後來發現它量多應該是變成我們的我現在沒有辦法聽得懂你到底在講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
425.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
427.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為就現行的納管程度不足的製程安全定期實施辦法看起來民洋都像是甲類裡面它製造 處置或使用危險物達到一定數量的工作場所 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
442.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
460.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我問你他有沒有申報製程安全計畫你說 你就直接告訴我有或沒有報告委員 沒有 因為他前面跟消防法跟工廠法都沒有報了所以這都是在兩年前所以啊 我現在問你 制度在這裡沒有報會怎麼樣沒有報會怎麼樣應報而未報會怎麼樣你當初有開法嗎2023年到現在有開法了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
470.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
480.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
明天大火我們授權金家區是有開罰的罰多少我們再把這個罰多少救生員的母法執安法第15條第三項違反法律罰多少死了10個人100多人輕重傷依照執安法應該要申報而未報你們罰多少不會是3萬吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
494.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
517.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有可能是三萬違反第15條第三項從三萬罰到三十萬罰三十萬死了十個人我們都知道職災的最高原則是預防不要發生而我們治安法的最高原則就是希望要做到不發生而當發生的時候如果代價是這麼輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
519.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
528.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
什麼人管你遵守法律這法尊的意願太低了吧因為罰則太輕了這題我會回去看看當初那個我們的授權進下去到底有罰多少我後續跟委員報告我現在告訴你喔第一個涵蓋面不夠第二個有處分有罰則但是罰得很輕第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
546.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
548.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們在講說他必須要五年做一次的報告可是呢 因為民養大火之後有一個環工顧問公司在之後他們去檢視了其他高爾夫球球器製造商請他們進場去看結果該場的作業環境的粉塵和VOC問題遠比民養更嚴重因為民養發生以前他已經去過 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
567.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
577.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
倘若現場有可燃物質引發火災 後果不堪設想非要等到工廠出事 這是他的意見啦外界才會積極要求檢討改善然而 場內作業環境糟糕 也會造成員工的職業傷病我們都知道 這也是來自職安法所以 在這種狀況裡面 他們一直在抱怨說 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
593.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
602.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個計劃 評估計劃做好了 雇主沒有改善的意願 了備一格需與委員 需與委員應付你們勞動部 那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
603.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
617.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那個我應該講幾件事情第一個事情是納管的範圍對涵蓋面不夠是不是可以擴大涵蓋面不夠跟高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引應該要重疊起來在這一份指引裡面的納管範圍我們會來請治安署來做檢討關於納管範圍然後罰則不夠第二個是怎麼讓這些廠商尤其是高風險的廠商能夠去落實這一類需要爆的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
631.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
658.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
都已經是高風險而且目前是最高風險但是最高風險是沒有你看他漏報你們也不知道全台灣還有多少漏報所以法規跟管制的工具怎麼樣來強化目的是要讓這些事情我們想要做的管理跟管制能夠落實這兩點我們會來請資安署來做檢討第三點有做了報告但不等於改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
659.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
676.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這件事情要怎麼解決這是我剛才說的落實啊就是說你有做報告可是你沒有在實際的作為上面去落實那怎麼樣子來要求這些廠商必須要來落實他們去做的相關的報告我覺得這部分我請治安署這邊這是製作面很大的漏洞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
676.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
694.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
而且到現在漏報沒有申報你們完全沒辦法勾機而且沒有辦法再檢查製程安全他著重的是在講工業製程相關的危害特別是他都是重大的公安危害火災爆炸毒性化學物質的外洩能量釋放的這是這麼重大的危害 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
695.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
715.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
其實這個以製程安全的操作環境為目標保持製程的安全操作狀態才能夠確保這個受僱者他有一個安全還有才能確保這一個工廠的周遭的環境是安全所以製程安全的操作跟工廠設施的設計人員安全的操作和良好的維護有關在這種狀況如果法制面是這樣子這麼簡單就可以逃脫 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
723.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
734.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們的法制面原來是這麼簡單可以刪掉 刪掉以後沒有任何的處分政府不知道的不知道 直到爆炸才知道這就是最重大的問題好 那我再講第二個問題這是根據勞動及職業安全衛生紀刊 研究紀刊113年12月裡面一篇報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
746.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
748.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他們有發現因為大家還有去申報的沒申報的你們都搞不清楚但有去申報的裡面發現製程的整個生命週期中重複實施製程安全評估實務面上發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
762.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
776.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在經過評估週期後越不容易發現新的中度的風險和較高風險的危害那況且今年化學品災難性事故如火災爆炸事故頻傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
778.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
793.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這種事故的調查發現在製程安全評估時多半沒有分析到潛在危害顯然製程安全評估的有效性已經出現疑慮好 這個意思是什麼就是說 你都不要出事 你如果出事然後他們就要進場去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
798.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
824.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
調查事故的時候發現他們交給你們的上傳給你們的備案交給你們報備的他們的製程安全評估計畫其實都沒有分析到潛在危害親債給你高高的 你的親債備案你如果就沒人在看所以這個製程安全評估的這一個制度在運作上顯然是了備一格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
828.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
829.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
这样没办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
831.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
861.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
報告委員那個民間的意見我們尊重但是我們做送過來的甲類的工作場所的評估報告書我們也會從評估報告書裡面去看他的他的那個時效性而且我們從這個時效 怎麼五年一次要說時效報告委員我們還列入我們專案 連沒做的人完全沒時效的問題啊直接直接沒做啊 報告委員我們列管這些甲類的工作場所也會做專案如果你有列管他沒有申報你怎麼會不知道有沒有列管的然後沒有申報的你不知道的報告委員現在沒有申報的部分就我們會用到那個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
861.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
869.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
行政院在列一個化學雲的那個平台把工廠輔導法通報的資料你現在講的好像都沒有問題可是執行面就是給你問起來你會欺負一個人我們沒有說沒有問題我們會持續讓這個風險控制到最低你可以保證未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
880.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
902.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
絕對不會有任何一家甲類的或是未來全面性涵蓋性更廣的納管的不會有不申報或是申報不實或是申報內容沒有涵蓋到分析潛在危害或是他申報到有潛在危害但是不等於改善 他願意改善因為法規沒有強制他要求改善 那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
905.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
924.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
包委員風險評估的精神就是他要持續的不斷改善啊沒有改善啊沒有改善啊內積跟外積要做後續的外積在哪裡外積你們積了多少包委員內積內積哪有內積他內部的積才就請人家來評估評估完了就依舊如故 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
925.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
939.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
報告就歸報告但是所以我們在講說這個顧問公司的人看到的現場就是現在寫了報告了但是廠商不願意改善也沒有動機改善也沒有動力改善因為官方沒人在查啊沒人要緊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
944.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
959.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個就是現在真正的事實報告委員我們其實我們那個甲類工廠所那個報告書我們也做抽案查核所以委員今天跟我們提醒我們要做積極的改善其實如果一上工廠生產最危險的東西風險他創造他自己要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
959.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
970.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有效的改善跟解除那我們假機構跟我們展署是在那監督要求改善角度其實他們叫做你講的是理想狀態是應該這樣沒有錯但是我們都以為工廠會自律業者會自律因為整個廠燒掉他們不會有好處要付出很大的代價可是真正的事實是大家都有一種姑且的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
981.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
989.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
不可能這麼衰 不可能會發生的如果沒有 剛剛講民養之後這個顧問公司到其他的高爾夫球劇場去看VOC粉塵 比民養更嚴重欸所以你不要以為說 廠商理所當然應該要怎麼樣 沒有這一回事所以關於這個 這件事情是知識體大而且我再講一次 這個東西只是規範最高風險的那幾家而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1013.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1040.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個納管跟蓋面還很低耶可是我要跟你講一個數據你要清楚 部長你要聽一下2016到2023年這7年經統計國內工廠 潮車交通實驗室除倉儲學校及其那場所發生危害性化學物質事故每年都超過400件其中工廠事故251件最多而工廠的事故裡面火災爆炸的件數最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1041.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1061.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
上述的上述不是只有工廠啦331件所以在這種狀況裡面這很重大的公安危害我們是看到執安署的執安組組長朱文勇說今年的勞動檢查方針要加強火災爆炸高風險工廠的檢查是不是真的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1063.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1071.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
近期真的發生了很多件包括剛剛講的遠東新世紀都是個案的啦你們有沒有通案要去檢查接下來你們的組長是說預計今年要檢查1000多個場次有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1078.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1107.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
包委員確實我們看火災爆炸案子今年跟去年有增加趨勢所以我們除了遠東化遷這個案子我們這邊倒升油的專案檢查做展開出廠覆查原來遠東化遷不需要講了我們知道這是你們經常拿出來當標竿的火災爆炸特別石化業的專案檢查我們今年會做著重做這樣處理就不要再講遠東化遷因為遠東化遷實在是很漏氣的因為人家是你們的得獎廠商我看看那個獎是什麼獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1109.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1111.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你們那個獎是什麼獎 他是得到你們什麼獎2023年職安署辦理第一屆健康勞動力永續領航企業選拔健康勞動力獲獎名單遠東新世紀然後呢就馬上發生爆炸造成兩人死亡還有幾人受傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1135.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1136.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
然後他是設備老舊然後你們當天我們開了記者會以後你們專屬有承認你們審查健康勞動力領航企業的審查標準是根據企業所提供的白皮書寫的好不好做書面審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1155.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1159.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這完全是脫離實際狀況所以得獎的廠商馬上就造成重大傷亡委員這我沒辦法接受所以接下來我們會要求要把考慮器我們也沒辦法接受國安事故違規紀錄我沒辦法接受是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1171.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1177.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
台灣石化產業很多是上市貴公司非常大的經濟規模過去景氣好的時候他們都不願意花錢改善而現在我們知道石化業或者是傳統產業他現在世界的景氣不好或者是國際的競爭力下降了他更不可能花 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1191.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1200.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
白白沒有發生事情的時候去花錢所以我們不是希望你仰賴業者的自律而是希望國家政府要進場進場 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1206.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1223.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
對可以嗎我的質詢只有質詢到一半啦還有另外一個制度面問題下一次再問啦但是就是說可以嗎先跟委員說明我們當然我自己不希望是去只依賴業者的自律第二個剛剛委員講到那個獎項的評選的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1225.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1240.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
出面作業審查居然以一個過去職災紀錄或者是發生公安紀錄這麼多的廠商居然被納選進去2023年的永續臨航獎這個我不能接受所以我們會要求把這些公安紀錄違規紀錄都要納入未來評選的考慮裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1245.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1253.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
每年都燒 每年都燒 還可以得到得獎第一屆治安署的這個獎項沒有辦法接受 你要回去好好檢討好 謝謝林淑芬委員 |