| IVOD_ID |
159268 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159268 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-17T12:04:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-17T12:21:21+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb539d1fdb0265bd58ad7e46c29134393cb6aeebfddff728eff356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:04:43 - 12:21:21 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】） |
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今天齊凱要問齊銘 |
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18.124 |
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事階這個環評是不是一個假環評真作弊保定你知道嗎一位吹哨者來提供的這個資料啊多立聯本這個致癌的嘛你知道這個很毒超標的7.3倍而且這個檢測過程啊竟然造假土壤這個污染值在調查裡面竟然只有查了一處你知道這件事情嗎我知道我知道你知道嗎對那這個環評還有效嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.381 |
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64.842 |
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當然有效啊 這是兩個 包括委員其實土屋跟這個環評這是兩個不一樣的法規程序如果沒有問題 那為什麼要避開呢沒有避開 我們先看一下法令先看一下法令規定土壤污染評估調查報告跟檢測作業的管理辦法第五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
67.06 |
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93.719 |
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鎖定了這個土壤污染評估值跟測驗這個資料如果照這個資料不得低於以下這個規定你至少一個污染的土地你要檢測如果是原來協和電廠這個面積要245處如果包括那個填奶的地方要303結果你自己去做了一個59點的這個自行的這個檢測保定你要回答那個問題我要提醒你一個很重要的不管是不是台電給你假的這個資料還是錯誤的信息如果沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.253 |
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106.256 |
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你們為什麼要避開那你之前為什麼要做你都還知道台積電去高雄那個河地的整治就是污染土地現在還在整治啊 |
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107.421 |
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131.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你污染的土地沒有整治完怎麼可以上面就開始蓋呢怎麼環評就夠了呢是不是這樣你現在是環境部長你現在是環境部長喔這個不要變成你從民間來的留下來一個污點很重要第一個我先跟你講我先講一個重要概念你污染一個土地河地整治都沒有完成環評就可以夠嗎這是第一個點第二個我最直接問的台電你們如果認為沒問題或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.207 |
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160.884 |
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環境部這邊沒問題你們當初為什麼要做更嚴重的你們為什麼要避開那59個有污染的地方就是需要做嘛 對不對是不是這樣現在更讓我生氣了那天2226環評我跟陳昭志跟黃珊珊我們三個立法委員因為我們接到吹哨者的資料啊我們是送進去環境部我知道你那天迴避嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.632 |
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169.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
可是你環境部跟所有的環評委員事先應該已經接到這個資料囉我給你看這個資料來你看看我們看上一張圖這個土壤要怎麼調查他一共有分ABCD你看看有幾個區A區是污染很嚴重的廢水處理廠的部分 |
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186.806 |
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195.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
B區後來調查了 污染比較沒那麼嚴重可是D區就是發電機組這個區域啊非常嚴重 下一張我給你看一下這是台電WTOG自己做出來的喔結果你們把這個東西蓋牌了A區就是剛剛講的廢水處理廠都立原本管制的標準只有0.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.407 |
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229.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這是致癌的這麼嚴重的一個污染污染物超標多少0.659欸超標7.3倍下面就是低區很多都超標了部長當崔少哲把這東西給了立法委員立法委員叫環評委員要先看結果那天 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
245.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
你至少要做一個動作嘛把這個資料消化完之後是不是好好去清查一下當天基隆市的市長也在場我的要求完全要合法要合乎規定你至少讓基隆市謝國隆那天也講啊他說儘快他會同你環境部去做這個檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
273.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
280.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你做完檢測以後那天環評才有效啊結果你罷完硬上工這樣的環評大會怎麼會是有效的部長我明確做三個要求我今天早上來問了會議紀錄到現在沒有公佈嘛對不對三天內第一個三天內完整公佈歷次的環評的這個審議還有2月26號會議的這個紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
303.018 |
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321.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
特別是土壤污染的評估報告可以嗎 法定法務委員這個是基隆要宣告所謂的土壤污染管制區是基隆市政府他要去查的地方政府那我們已經交代我們的環管署到那個地方要配合基隆市環保局去查到底有沒有那委員你提出的這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
322.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
338.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
介紹者 催哨者 歡迎到接避者保護我一定馬上查 馬上處理這段的過程我們會馬上處理從環評的程序裡面說得很清楚環評的程序跟土屋管制兩個是不一樣的法規程序像南部的你說的例如說很多的這個要新蓋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
339.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
368.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
污染了要開發他的規劃環評還是可以照走但是他如果要開發一定要整治完了之後才會開發現在他不過現在根本就是不是土壤的管制的區域那他過去106年曾經發現過107到08年邪惡電廠已經改善了現在不是那現在未來如果公告是的話那他未來就進入到那個程序嚴重誤會了吹哨者把護拿來的不是舊的東西喔是最近台電委託自行去調查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
368.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
383.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你如果沒有需要你為什麼要調查你為什麼要移開要避開而且是新的資料你絕對不要被誤導的不是舊的資料是新的這是第一個點第一個點來第二個更重要來來來當場環評大會要開對不對你有新的市政出現嘛你是不是應該停下來那天謝國亮已經講了他盡快會同你環境部去調查完 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
393.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
412.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你說調查完真的沒有問題 是誣衛你 對不對那你環評就過了啊你現在顛倒病啊 你現在先過了環評然後你現在去調查 調查出來有問題怎麼辦所以這個根本就是一個無效的啊霸王硬上弓又違反程序違法的一個環評啊 是不是這樣報告委員這是兩個不一樣的法規程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
438.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不一樣的法規可是一定要做啊要不然的話他如果要開發他如果要開發要把土壤整治完成才可以開發啊你今天有誤對我知道你的意思啦可是第一個如果有污染你就要先要去要求他做這個事嘛對不對你當場沒有做你來通過環評第二個是部長您在講的啊你要先確認啊要不然你怎麼後來有整治的問題等一下等一下啦來來來所以做三件事情第一個法定三天內 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
452.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
公布歷次環評的會議特別是土地污染的評估報告你有問題嗎土地污染的報告不是環評會議的資料是他們做土屋調查的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
453.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
476.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這邊要跟委員說明一下土壤污染評估調查的報告是他們依土屋法去做的調查並不是依我們環評法去調查所以我們環評裡頭只有規定它範疇界定要去調查一個點位所以我們環評的資料當然會議紀錄相關的OK可是土屋調查是另外所以59個地方有污染你特別去挑了一個你為什麼要避開 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
478.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
494.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個什麼台語什麼 你也要注意喔偷天換日是吧你怎麼跟人民可以交代現在我非常明確的要求嘛第一個就是因為有問題所以你才要調查這是一個 所以我要求第一個你把這個調查報告給全民看 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
509.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你有二氧化碳數嗎現在吹哨所來講就是59個地方明明確確都是有汙染啊你後來坐著再去去啊對不對這邊先跟委員報告你看看A跟D都有汙染結果你再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
510.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
把這個公佈給全民來做公平更重要的他們無染無染的調查報告是他們自行調查報告並不是送到我們審查的報告所以這個可能要請台電自己說明那個而且那個報告也不是我們你搞個環境部耶你要保護安全的保護環境的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
530.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們叫依法行政圖跟環評這是本來兩件事情而且他們一定要整治完之後才能做開發這是本來的規定過去以往就是這個樣子所以你發現有污染你是不是應該停下來把它整治好或者是確認完之後才能夠開下一步所以我做了兩個很重要的要求你看一下第一個你把資料把它公佈第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
554.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
576.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
柏定你看這個要求這個很明確嘛依法跟依程序嘛土壤評估報告裡面如果你現在調查出來的他如果沒有含之前的那個59處他跳開了對不對他避開了柏定你說你已經要跟市政府要去調查嘛對不對信不信 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
577.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
603.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們是配合市政府去做調查配合嘛對啊所以環境部立即會同這個基隆市政府針對這59個地方你趕快去調查沒有調查完成之前你這個會議本來就是無效的嘛這個會議環評大會這個結論要先報告不是無效喔不是無效大家都有經歷了法令的過程來完成這件事情兩個法令本來就是不一樣委員你不能強人所難我們是依法行政啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
604.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
609.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以我們就配合市政府他必須要去完成這個土壤污染區的公告啊OK所以我提了第三點嘛如果後來你們去檢測的結果確實有污染這樣環民大會的結論還可以用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
627.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
656.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
柏定回答等一下我要叫他留下記錄柏定摸著良心你從明天來我原不能不能這樣說這個是我們要按照這個程序在進行這個程序我的程序就是他如果汙染汙染汙染如果就進進到我們的汙染整治的關鍵他在106年曾經發現過107 08年在我們部內的列管已經整治完成了那現在他現在正在如果有新的事項我們去查了之後他也是照這個程序在開在在進行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
677.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你這個是頭跟腳不是顛倒了嗎你發現它有汙染你就盡可能不要在那個環境這不應該過你處理完你才能夠走下一步啊結果不是你現在是怎麼樣一定要護航要先過霸王硬上弓說一定要過嗎教練在跟我講一定要過這是兩個不一樣的程序我也說得很清楚喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
678.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
687.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那我剛剛一直有個疑問嘛台電為什麼要做這個為什麼環評團體跟評團要來抗議這個我剛才還給你看土壤法的這個整個整個檢測的過程那個報告委員好我是台電啦我這邊先說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
697.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
719.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
協和電廠並不是市政府宣布的土地污染場址所以在環評法裡面它是兩個不同法源如果今天是環評法裡面它特別有說明如果你是宣布為土地污染場址的時候就不能辦環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
733.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他並沒有先後秩序台電是自主負責那你為什麼要自行負責要去做這個調查你有沒有沒問題你為什麼要調查沒有規定你為什麼要做這個調查委員你先聽我把事情說完 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
738.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
752.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
台電就是我們每一個開花場子都必須做這個都必須把土地整治完成合格之後才會進行開花現在世界發現污染了不用是吧跳過去就好了是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
753.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
774.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那個包委員剛剛我剛剛有澄清基隆市政府如果有宣布協和電廠當時在環評之前是土屋有宣布的話那這個環評可能就有問題可是這個並不是宣布可是這個要市政府全責對不起這個是我們自主性做的這個跟市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
781.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
810.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
市政府 你的調查裡面有沒有汙染有沒有這59個汙染有沒有報告委員 有沒有自主性檢查裡面有這一個汙染但是這個並不是市政府自己去調查是我們為了開花案場而去做的自主性調查所以市政府如果照你們的調查報告就是會有嘛是不是你們自己調查調查東西到底有沒有這才重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
811.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
815.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員這個要進到環評的時候在範疇界定裡面他要求我們測試是1點這委員應該很清楚啊你為什麼不測那50你們還建議說跳開這59點這個是抽樣欸抽樣不是說我們固定欸沒有說跳過去啦那個59點並不是在範疇界定裡面所以你那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
840.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
848.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沒有59點裡面的話你怎麼抽得出來說是有你自己找到了59點跳過去你們的報告裡面還建議說你到時候要檢測的時候要跳過那59點啊欸對不起委員並不是像你想像中不是像你想像中59點不是在好好委員委員來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
868.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
初步判斷非擴散污染因已知污染位置 正式調查可以疑點這不是你們來電嗎我是覺得我們應該是去看環評裡面的規定說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
885.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
894.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
換籌界定的那一點區域在哪裡可是這個59點是另外一個問題可是到底有沒有汙染第二個你有沒有檢測到59個汙染點第三個你為什麼故意跳進去我已經讓你們兩道解說清楚了好不好來來 抱歉抱歉 輸血不輸血不輸血 你們這樣不行啦你們兩個一個解釋也不是很清楚一個認定上也有模糊的空間是不是休息五分鐘那你們就說清楚 不用不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
910.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
916.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
後面有委員在等啊我當主席我最起碼已經給你們有充分的時間了這個委員會我剛才當主席你們要把事情討論清楚我絕對會支持但是你們兩兆在平行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
933.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
957.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
完全沒有教會嘛我讓你們休息完等一下你要講再講嘛好不好來休息三分鐘等一下我們私下溝通一下休息一方面溝通一下一方面我就要求照這三點來做啦趕快環境部會同那個基隆市政府基本要弄清楚你如果真的檢測出來你沒有的問題我現在問題就是清清楚楚你自己白紙黑字都有問題嘛你這環評怎麼會有效呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
973.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
984.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我當然珍惜啊可是你要依法行政啊你不能這樣給我污衊啊這個我們有一定的程序啊污染完就要整治完成啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
989.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
991.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你們避開了五十九點再去找一個沒有的 |