| IVOD_ID |
159231 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159231 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-35-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-17T10:59:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-17T11:12:34+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb20e43d21992b9d23871e4a585984f629eba1aea0cf818e9112974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:59:50 - 11:12:34 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請委員長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
9.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
黃委員你好委員長好,我請一陣子發了一個函請你們提供給我僑務委員的名單是到目前為止都沒有正式的回文給我跟委員報告,我們有跟因為你們,我先一樣一樣來我到目前為止聽到了只有電話回覆那我想先確立一個基本的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
34.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
43.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
僑委會對於委員發函的所知都是用電話回覆嗎?不是那為什麼到現在沒有公文回我呢?這樣對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
46.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
70.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
委員我們有跟辦公室做說明我知道是電話回覆我們已經準備好一個一個機密檔案是要我親自送到辦公室給你看所以要跟你約時間什麼時候會送來就看委員辦公室給我時間是因為委員辦公室一直沒有給我時間所以我那個資料一直準備好我是要親自帶過去沒有我到目前為止我跟委員長說明一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
72.057 |
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因為我辦公室同仁在跟對外聯繫的時候,如果是公務電話打來,他們都會做電話記錄我目前為止所看到的電話...改革委員報告我們不只是打電話,我們有請我們國會組的同仁到辦公室去溝通然後你們回來就說,僑務委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
92.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
116.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
機密資訊嘛然後所以我要看過往都是由委員長親自向委員說明這個是你們目前的同仁給我的口頭回覆確實是這樣我們不分哪個黨派都一樣的做法所以所有的標準都一樣嗎是甚至之前柯總召跟我要我也沒有給他沒有關係啦剛剛你所謂用密件回覆的打算什麼時候回給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
118.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
142.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就看委員什麼時間有空我就隨時把那個資料帶去只有能現場給你看完我就要收回我們先來就國家的制度面上來討論這個問題因為僑務委員是依照僑務委員會組織法的規定由總統任命的嘛我的理解應該沒錯吧有法源依據我國目前的法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
144.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
157.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
到底在什麼地方把喬武委員的身份是列為機密因為我在法規找了半天完全找不到我們到底是依照什麼法規把喬武委員的身份列為機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
158.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
188.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好 各位委員報告 這個就在我們的細則裡面是主要過去這20年 中共的哪一個細則我們有我們內部的行政細則沒有關係啊 你把那個行政細則 等一下直接提供給我好不好該不會連這個細則也是密件吧不會 細則可以提供來 你們喲 僑務委員其實每年都開會嘛這個都是公開的場合啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
開僑務委員會議的時候,也不是機密會議嗎?沒有公開,沒有開會的時候,只有總統歷臨致死的時候有媒體之後都全部清場的OK來,我們再來看一下,2025年3月12號你們在僑委會的網站公告,續任僑務委員吳怡銘嗎?是行任僑務委員有哪些人嗎?那這不是機密嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
215.718 |
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跟委員報告 這個都是真的當事人同意他們想要登 我們才會讓他們登出來分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛那現在當事人同意的有幾個人因為你要聘喬烏委員嘛那你剛講的那些理由 我大概以前都聽過啦所以應該分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛現在當事人同意的有幾個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們現在全球不到180個是171個僑務委員那同意的有幾個人同意的我們這個大概佔數量有相當多但是仍然有將近二三十個不同意沒有關係啊那所以就分兩個而已嘛同意的名單就不是機密了嘛是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.871 |
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| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
應該這樣子講就是說我們可以提供某些名單讓委員看過那不同意的我們就不提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
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這個當然沒有問題嘛所以我才說分兩類嘛但是我們基於不想幫對岸整理好完整的資料就揭露請你聽完我的問題再回答因為分兩類嘛一個是同意的嘛一個是不同意的嘛那不同意的在法規上面他們有沒有不同意的理由我們可以再討論嘛同意的部分就沒有列為機密的必要這樣沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
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基本上他們如果同意我們是可以公開其實這個事情從很早以前就開始吵了2002年那個時候的僑委會他的立場是什麼他說選出來本來就是要服務僑胞如果不公開的確不適當這個時候那個時候的僑委會的主委應該是張復美張主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.827 |
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348.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
當委員長他那個時候在面對立法院詢問的時候他的立場就是這個樣子所以這個立場是什麼時候改變的我們這個立場都一致沒有改變來看一下2002年11月12號僑委會公開全部僑委名單如果都一致的話2002年11月12號怎麼會有這個媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.052 |
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| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
而且我們沒有公開啊沒有沒有2002年11月12號你說從以前到現在都一致嗎對啊所以我們一直沒有公佈啊沒有沒有先停一下所以這個是假新聞嗎這是真的啊所以他有公他沒有公佈啊等一下等一下僑委會公開全部僑委名單你有看到嗎沒有啊看右手邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
380.69 |
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僑委會公開全部僑委名單 白紙黑字寫在上面沒有 那也沒有真的全部公開 也沒有那奇怪囉 來來來來來2003年3月 從來沒有過2003年3月 這個是在立法院的委員會紀錄喔來看一下張委員長赴美 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.636 |
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430.219 |
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僑務委員由總統聘請他們的名單都會公布目前我們計畫印製簡單的手冊如果大院委員有需要我們都會提供這個是立法院公報的資訊所以你說這是假訊息嗎我不能說是假訊息但是當時的回應之後也是沒有提供奇怪了對他們都已經那個時候都已經公布名單啊在立法院裡面都這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
431.752 |
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然後你還在否認這個客觀的指示我的認知是當時張委員長雖然有做這個回應但之後也是沒有公開所以你的意思是說他在立法院講一套後來做另外一套是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.26 |
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我不知道 我沒有辦法為以前的事情負責跟委員說明 當時是一樣的做法就是沒有做一份名單對外公開但是有親自拿去給委員看過就像我現在要送去給你看的是一樣的做法所以張委員長是那樣子做的他在委員會裡面就已經講了 |
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他說大院委員有需要會提供,但是沒有講什麼提供方式,所以確實後來是以去拜會委員親自拿給委員看過,然後就收回,確實是這樣的做法再來看一下,你說從以前到現在,剛剛我已經跟你講了從以前是怎麼處理到現在這個是民進黨的蘇巧惠委員的資訊,連蘇巧惠委員都在質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.837 |
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他說這個是大家覺得身負重任非常光榮的代表台灣然後他跟你們所知然後你們也給他了那你們給他的名字上面是用黃圈名羅圈結 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
509.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.79 |
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有提供給他他對於你們這種公開的方式也表達不滿但我現在的問題是啊我連蘇巧惠委員這種遮蔽中間名字的名單都拿不到這到底是怎麼回事啊你們是面對不同黨派的沒有委員我們當時也是給他看就收回了也沒有真的給他這個做法我們都是一致的就是說我們會請委員長或副委員長親自帶去委員辦公室給委員看過看完以後一樣收回 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
538.715 |
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564.846 |
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你那奇怪了那他為什麼手上會有僑務委員名單他沒有啊那他上面寫說給我的名單需要用黃圈名羅圈結陳圈錦就是現場拿給他看的東西啊所以這是他背下來的就對了這是啊他可能憑印象背的啊我老實這樣講啦齁這件事情啊目前在法規上面其實是沒有編密件的法律依據剛剛你說有細則嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
566.929 |
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593.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
任何對於這種資訊的遮蔽任何對這種資訊的遮蔽在沒有法規的授權之下我們還是要尊重當事人的意願啊是啊 所以就分兩類嘛一個是當事人願意 一個是當事人不願意嘛現在我先不跟你扯法規嘛最起碼當事人願意的那個部分剛剛你說過沒有問題嘛 是吧當事人有意願的部分的名單什麼時候可以提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
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委員我是已經準備好一份要拿去你辦公室給你看了就是當事人有意願的部分但是我們仍然不希望這一份資料流出去還是為了國家安全跟個人隱私如果是這樣啦我基本上的建議是這個如果要編密件必須要有法律授權的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
632.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
密件不一定要法律授權不一樣等一下等一下先停一下你說密件不需要法律授權我們的公文處理不見得是要依據我們的行政命令就可以處理密件了如果啦按照你這樣講是成立的啊是國家機密保護法根本沒有立法的必要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
634.717 |
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649.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
當初國家機密保護法為什麼要立法台灣是民主法治的國家欸可是機密委員 我跟您報告一下我們在海外的委員在各個不同的國家大家有不同的處境有些國家是單一國籍的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
650.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
672.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
如果他已經成為當地的公民他還仍然保有台灣的國籍然後或者他是擔任我們的僑務委員同時這個身份的時候他可能會被當地的政府追究所以這件事情我們不是可以這麼單純的去思考剛剛你講的啦是理由的部分啦我現在在跟你講的是你在編密件的時候有沒有法律授權基礎的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
673.598 |
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700.629 |
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我要這樣講今天即使你講的理由可以有討論的空間但是一樣要有法律的授權才可以編密件這個是我在法律上面的理解如果一個公務機關沒有法律授權的依據他愛編密件就編密件台灣還是法治國家嗎我們還有需要制定國家機密保護法嗎就不用啦我想我們討論的層級是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
702.67 |
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727.319 |
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剛剛你說的嘛黃委員注意一下時間 你現在問的比本委還要久了不需要法律授權 行政機關自己就可以訂喔委員這個扯遠了剛剛這就是你說的啊有些行政程序是我們可以做密件處理的從過去到現在我們都是按照標準我沒有自己獨立創作 沒有我沒有這個就是我跟你認知不一樣的地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
728.998 |
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750.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
委員你沒有擔任過行政職你不了解這個作業對所以呢當過行政職的人就沒有法律授權的依據自己要編密件就可以編密件不是沒有法律授權我們還是有一些行政職對嘛所以我就問你嘛不公開我們的密件就是不公開就叫做密件跟委員定義的密件邏輯是不一樣的好不好所以需不需要法律授權的依據不用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
751.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
754.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不是我們兩位委員你討論的意見跟我講的意見是不同的定義邏輯委員長請之後再跟黃委員說明好的你給我一個時間我親自私下去跟你說明好不好好謝謝 |