| IVOD_ID |
159204 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159204 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-17T09:15:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-17T09:28:36+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbc601d82f3143cda5ad7e46c29134393c89159ed41e553124c29c834b6071bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:15:11 - 09:28:36 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
41.479 |
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再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.419 |
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那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.345 |
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101.602 |
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除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.797 |
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其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
131.855 |
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135.522 |
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這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要 |
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138.118 |
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148.501 |
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環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項 |
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162.225 |
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我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
187.771 |
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192.796 |
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就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
208.314 |
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221.229 |
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其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
225.578 |
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就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
239.522 |
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248.61 |
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非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
261.622 |
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269.788 |
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台電跟他所委託的公司 太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了 你看這個圖 下一張那個圖 等一下我交給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
274.489 |
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292.397 |
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這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
297.391 |
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326.217 |
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實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
327.503 |
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345.115 |
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開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
347.363 |
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367.01 |
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那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
368.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
396.481 |
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就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
397.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
417.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
417.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
430.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
446.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
460.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有 真猜不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
473.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
482.03 |
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事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
499.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
505.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
519.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
536.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有 委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
538.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
558.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
559.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
577.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
579.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
593.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
594.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
611.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
621.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
650.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
652.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
671.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員 那本書是厚厚的 裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
678.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
693.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
694.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
717.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
NO 這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
725.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
746.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
747.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
762.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有 委員你這樣講就 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
777.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
795.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸好 那我就行政調查好嗎好 好了 OK 好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好 |