| IVOD_ID |
158911 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158911 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-16T11:22:55+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-16T11:37:05+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:10 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e6909b4ca57c0612b31debff664fb48829ae781c7e1649b47f84d4c48a885b850ecafa458f489ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:22:55 - 11:37:05 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長、大陸委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署報告「針對海底電纜係國家對外重要通訊手段，為避免中共利用各種灰色地帶手段測試我國網路及電網韌性情事發生，如何建立有效備援系統以支援軍事作戰並支撐基礎建設防護韌性」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
13.691 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
來請中華電信總經理還有國安局局長以及我們海巡署我先把一個時間序列問一下海底電纜是中華電信負責的嗎你們在有人把它拖斷了破壞了你們會多久的時間知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
41.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
67.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告委員第一時間就會知道因為我們有監視的系統就第一時間那個流量出問題就知道了嘛知道之後你們的標準作業下一個動作是什麼基本上有兩個面向一個面向是因為國際海膽一斷是影響非常大所以我們第一個一定優先處理客戶的訊物希望把他的損害降到最低你們第一時間知道能不能瞭解是什麼原因斷掉可能不知道就只知道斷了斷的位置知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
68.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
86.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
要用設備去打光然後判斷大概要幾分鐘的時間幾分鐘就可以知道斷在哪裡是的所以你們第一個動作是維持客戶的運作要趕快先恢復我們台灣對外聯的海底電纜幾條十條對國際的部分有七條七條那還有備用的離島有十條十條然後備用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
91.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
108.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
呃 離島就是10條 但是我們有像微波跟衛星的多元那是備援 備援是另外一件事情喔 低軌道衛星那什麼的所以我們國際通用是7條 是然後我們離島相關的是10條 10條 對所以 這每一條如果斷了你們都能夠在數分鐘之內知道斷在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
109.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
136.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
是的 第一時間斷我們的系統 我們兩邊系統馬上就知道斷但是要判斷地方要時間那判斷地方你們會同時啟動嗎還是會把客戶服務完再回來看斷在哪裡應該是雙管齊下所以理論上有個地方斷了你們大概五分鐘吧 幾分鐘內就會知道斷在哪裡嗎大概知道那接下來動作是什麼我們也會通報那個相關單位例如現在有所謂的重大事故的一個通報的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
137.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
139.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我正要問的是 多久會到海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
168.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
應該這樣講在過去我們的SOP是除了剛才處理之外通報到速發部的那個網站裡面那這個呢事實上是30家網站那這是標準程序但是如果是重大我們當然也會用電話溝通等等那這個是標準程序以後另外第二個國土辦在去年也有國土安全的單所以我們同時也會通報那 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
190.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
海巡坦白說以前因為這個是比較沒有啦但是經過這一次之後我們以後也會同時好我現在再回到前一動你知道斷在哪裡了你有一個單子要通知國土辦你是第一張單子通知他說斷訊了某一條電纜斷了那接下來幾分鐘後知道他斷在哪裡還要不要再通報一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
207.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
呃一般是會的還是會我不要提一般有還是沒有呃我們會續報所以一般來講大概兩個小時內我們會再兩個小時啊這是沒有我講的是標準程序啦沒有我們知道這種麻煩高我聽起來都不標準我我現在讓為什麼讓國安局長跟校長坐在這邊呢每一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
225.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
都要有意義沒有意義的刪掉浪費文書作業你斷訊了讓客戶備員可以運作這是對的但同步有關安全的我第一張單子應該告訴哪個單位告訴他說某一條比如說T1C1電纜斷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
253.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第二章馬上知道第一秒要告訴他斷在什麼位置那我就下面的SOP也許放在國土辦通知海軍通知海巡否則你這一邊就是我在兩小時內要通報你知道疑犯都跑多遠了所以這沒有標準作業嘛局長我問這你懂意思嗎所以這一次我完全沒辦法去指責或認為海巡署快或慢因為以往海巡署根本沒有在通報對象我這樣講對還是錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
256.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
272.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有 會通報 但是時間沒有要求那是間接 間接 間接了啦你們沒有通報你們的通報對象沒有海巡署啊我們會通報 但是沒有標準就沒有規定一定要多久所以沒有規定要多久我們這邊有一大堆國軍將領喔抱歉沒有 下面有國軍將領聽到這個 你都不知道這樣該怎麼打 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那就是有通報也可以慢慢通報也可以快快通報也可以或者沒有通報也可以啊委員我剛剛提到國土辦有一個國土辦的事件單那個事實上是我們同時發出去那事件單有沒有要求比如說我現在一旦知道哪個點斷在比如說那個坐標幾度的時候就要立即通報還是要等我忙完這些其他事情我再來通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
317.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們同時在裡面另外還有一個JOKER我們也同時通報那剛才跟委員報告我因為量有時候要一點時間所以大概會譬如說25分鐘你剛才講幾分鐘現在變25分鐘了不一定因為有時候很難你打光怕過去回來要測那個距離嗎對要測距離而且要判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
318.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
而且要越精準的話到底要多久有時候我說15分鐘25分鐘差不多啦你知道我從剛才問到現在你的答案就已經不一樣了我比較為難你這事件是已發生的已知事件如果到現在我還沒有辦法得到標準答案我怎麼希望你下一次能夠有改善呢了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
337.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以這個應該是跨部位我不是指的中華電因為你不負責安全這一塊但現在應該要納入了美國對這個國土這個他們的他們的國土安全署他們在管這個事情的時候有哪些要列管標準作業程序所以我們回到國安局來請局長我剛才問這一趴你就知道問題在哪裡了第一個沒有標準作業程序第二個該通報誰該怎麼處理海底電纜在海底 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
391.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我不通知海軍我也要通知海巡要不然誰去看漁船嗎馬祖跟我們斷聯了我難道不應該通知因為馬祖是我們管制區難道不應該通知國防部嗎所以這個標準作業程序沒有發生事情我回過頭問馬祖斷了你國防部怎麼反應那麼慢我能指責他嗎因為第一個時間斷聯的人知道的是掌控這七條國際十條國內的中華電信他的通報你應該聽到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我同意委員的觀點啦也就是說就中華電信來講他畢竟是一個電信服務商啦那他比較關注的是在於電信服務的維持所以這一套建構的系統我覺得國安局對就我們國安單位來講確實像委員講的只要在通報過程當中讓我們的國安單位包括行政院國土辦可以第一時間掌握資訊的話那再傳到國防部海局局對還有國安局這邊我們才可以做必要的即時應出因為我剛才擔心什麼局長如果有一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
424.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
444.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
如果有一天這17條同一個時間斷了,他們怎麼辦?對,而且甚至不是只有海瀾,就官局的角度來講海瀾假如出問題,資訊到我們這邊,我們除了了解海瀾的狀況之外我們必須要判斷,同時中共的資安供給是不是有升高或是周邊的海事活動有沒有升高,這部分是我們的關注你繼續聽一下,中華電信我再問下一個問題這17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
472.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這績效如果同時斷了你們有沒有能力應變能力怎麼處理剛才跟委員報告以國內來講我們除了10條海欄之外我們還有微波備援我們還有衛星備援我們會啟動備援但它傳遞的那個頻寬數量差很多啦我現在是告訴你比方說你現在中華電信傳說會多今天才17條都回去了你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
474.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
497.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個就很像人為的嘛同時17條斷掉你評估你們現在應變能力有沒有這個我們內部做過評估也演練事實上如果是這樣這麼的話一定是是一個很辛苦的過程中華電信目前是沒有面對如果同時大量不要說17條斷了10條8條6條你們可能會有一陣混亂是委員跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
502.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
525.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對這個事情齁 在以去年來講國土辦就辦過兩次的演練演習辦過兩次 我講中華部分還辦過兩次的安全檢查事實上這個過程裡面就是在模擬剛剛委員所講的事情你那個模擬資料如果不涉機密的話我要求我們委員會要看一下你們的提向 SOP什麼的涉及機密我尊重 我們可以機密報告因為這個東西它正在發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
527.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
546.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們目前的應變的標準作業程序是不足的也許中華電信目前你有擁有的capacity你的擁有的能力也不足的這個要檢視國會要監督這一塊我相信國安會也應該要去監督這一塊那你這個我請教海軍署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
547.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
576.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一次的事件你們多久接到通知從斷掉中華電信斷連時間已經出來了嘛它斷掉到你們接到通知多久?各位公民報告1月3號7 12點40分接到中華電信通報通報內容是7點45分野柳東北方11點3海浬發生斷纜所以已經將近5個小時我們接到通報之後我們要回放雷達航機要研判哪些可遇船舶然後鎖定一艘船舶之後我們馬上派艇過去所以我請教副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
578.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
603.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
10分鐘之內告訴你跟5個小時以後告訴你你們處理會不會有所不同這個上司破案第一先機後續會很辛苦因為你只能靠航機好像是那一艘他走得很奇怪他就跟你講我的車業壞掉了所以在那邊亂繞我們是派艇全速去攔查5個小時你們在算幾節的你不如派我們戰鬥機去飛還比較快我的意思是說你現在看到7點45段 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
633.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
12點40分海巡才接到通知這要命案的話血都乾了所以這有問題啊跟委員報告我們在1月6號海外會召開跨部會會議其中通報機制包括政府整個通報機制當初陳委員剛剛講的連國防部也沒有通報所以我們現在要把他沒有收到通報是我們現在包括跟國防部開會我們第一時間接到通報天性通報我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
634.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
654.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們有一些對離島的台底電纜是國防部有在用的它沒有被通報它連敵人在哪裡都不知道可是你看有沒有聽清楚其實中華電信有能力我就抓寬一點有能力在25分鐘之內知道大概是哪個位置斷結果你是5個小時以後才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
655.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
680.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這一定要改進啦 這不改進怎麼行呢那我再請教你 我如果25分鐘之內告訴你你的船開過去 當然你們現在沒有空中兵力嘛那這是屬於警察業務 也就是海巡的業務我們也不適合動用國軍的兵力所以我這邊具體建議美國的海巡有空中的能量日本的海巡也有空中的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
681.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
707.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們台灣的海巡目前是沒有空中的能量以海巡署副署長的身份我請教你你認為台灣現在因應灰色地帶衝突越來越多灰色地帶衝突就是介於軍跟民之間所以我們常常是海巡署做前面海軍做後盾可是你們現在不管是抽砂船或者是大量的水上民兵的漁船的環繞或者像這種脫斷海底電纜掛第三國的權益輪你們的船艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
711.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
739.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
過去事實上時間會相當長哪怕你全速30節在開都要相當長你認為海巡署該不該建置空中兵力空中能量當然會徵收能力當然比艦艇快又廣那我們現在就是我們想方設法在提升海巡的包括水面跟空中能量所以現在逐步推動無人機那依照我們的政策行政院政策我們先推動無人機我們不斷的在引進新的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
741.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
763.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
而且無人機不是所有事情的答案我最後一句話問蔡局長這問題我私下問過某些律師我們就算在公海攔到現行犯在公海攔到可疑的犯嫌我們能執法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
764.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
791.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
涉及到一些溝通聯繫的過程因為我現在在公海上我懷疑這艘輪破壞我們海底電纜然後他拼命跑我們的海巡或者我們海軍能夠在公法執行嗎對管轄權有點疑義管轄權會有問題所以我們今天講了那麼多確定了疑犯確定了破壞位置確定了犯刑地點如果在公海怎麼辦現在沒有答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
793.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
802.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對不對他在公海進行這種類似切斷或者類似灰色地帶甚至類似侵略的行為我們現在在公海上執法的法律依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
804.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
831.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對 有點問題那可能要由那艘船的傳奇國來進行相關的司法偵查柯麥隆哪會理你啊對啊 法律上是這樣然後你要等他跑到哪個港口看那個港口的國家要不要處理這就慢了嘛所以這一塊法律上執法的部分可能要跟友盟溝通這一塊其實才是大問題縱使我們提升了空中能量我們提升了警告的SOP我們第一時間反應第一時間就掌握到哪一艘船做的壞事在公海上 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
832.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
848.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你根本什麼都不能做那怎麼辦這個題目問號我留給國安局我希望下一次我從這邊得到答案好不好好謝謝謝謝王地理委員局長請回接下來我們請洪孟凱委員上台質詢 |