| IVOD_ID |
158890 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158890 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
29 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-15T10:43:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-15T10:58:40+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a6afe7cf0950709d91cb09e2058dd4a024204766f4a2623bdefeab28909cd25ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:43:22 - 10:58:40 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部率所屬相關單位列席就「司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權利救濟之適用」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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他不在我這樣子講他我就有點不好意思因為不喜歡在人家背後講這個時間齁時間的控制是做朝委齁所以我看到他一直前面的8加2的時間全部在罵民進黨罵完之後超時之後才開始講簡報了這個實在是已經做朝委的人他自己要控制其他人的發言時間他自己應該要尊重時間齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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那我先請這個副秘書長跟我們的黃次長請副秘書長跟次長今天我原本看到這個題目看到我們吳釗偉來來來我剛講你壞話你不在我就不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.714 |
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今天看到吳釗緯定這個題目,我其實是看到的時候,我是非常高度的肯定這個我們在司法法制委員會能夠討論這個有關於司法訴訟實務上面,關於預防性權力救濟的適用這樣子的一個就法理上面的一個主題來討論我個人其實那時候是非常肯定的,就覺得特別也希望聽到吳釗緯在質詢裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.246 |
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就針對我們的這個究竟這個司法實務訴訟上面這個關於預防性的這個權力救濟的適用的法理問題結果剛剛聽了10分鐘這個吳昭偉在台上罵民進黨罵了8加2之後才開始講檢報檢報之後也沒有在談這個預防性的這個權力救濟而是整個在為這個限訴法的這個修法做辯護 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.868 |
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那就讓我就又有一點失望了我覺得今天這個主題其實它是有兩個層次的我想這按照我們吳釗偉所排的這個我覺得非常好他就是我們在學理上來探討學理上來探討究竟這個司法在司法訴訟實務上面關於這個預防性的權力救濟的適用這個學理上面有什麼樣的學說雖然我們剛剛釗偉提到認為說贊成在這個憲法訴訟裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
136.742 |
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運用這個預防性權力救濟他剛剛的描述說這是極端的少數學說那這個究竟是不是極端的少數學說我們等一下來討論那至少這個有兩個層次一個是學理上面究竟能不能適用這個預防性權力救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.98 |
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173.508 |
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另外就是說在實務個案上面我看結果今天大部分的討論從剛剛我從第一個到大部分的討論全部都集中在個案就是什麼個案就是這次限訴法究竟是不是能夠適用這個預防性權利究竟所以就是學術的討論是一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.631 |
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203.971 |
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學說討論到底在憲法訴訟裡面是不是應該要適用這個預防性權利救濟這是學說上的討論那至於學說上討論有定論之後那我們才討論說那在個案上面這次的限訴法是不是能夠適用這個權利救濟結果剛剛所有的討論大概幾乎集中在這個我們這次限訴法的這個適用是否能夠適用我覺得很可惜啦所以我想就利用我這一點點時間就來跟這個我們司法院跟法務部來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
205.399 |
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223.744 |
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希望我就要回到這個主題至於說這個限訴法到時候我們行政院他用什麼樣的方式救濟他可能可以在這個是不是他在這個法案生效之前就提出這個預防性權利救濟或者是在行政院長附屬之後但是總統公佈之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
225.936 |
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253.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是法律還沒有生效的那三天內來提出提出這個這個申請暫時處分這是第二種方式第三個就是等生效法律生效之後他再來提起提出暫時處分對不對就這個個案上面是不是這樣子我想是不是請副院長回答這行政院他能夠他他可以用這樣三種方式提出來他會這提出這個有關限訴法的這個這個訴訟是不是這這有這三種方式時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
255.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
283.089 |
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那個報告委員這個據那個報紙上所那個呈現的齁這個部分是行政院他們選擇的那個救濟途徑啊那這邊那個本院就是基於那個司法行政立場不便做評論好就是有這三種方式啦齁一個是在法律法律這個生效前他就先提那這就是今天要討論的主題是不是能夠有這個預防性權力救濟的施用啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
283.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
310.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那另外一個就是已經公布但是還沒有生效那也可能是今天的這個主題範圍那第三個就是等公布實施生效之後再來提憲法訴訟這個就不在今天的主題範圍裡面它就已經不是預防性的權利救濟了那這個我看你們的報告這個事實上我們從過去到現在看這個法務部跟司法院的意見在法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
312.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
337.379 |
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法務部的意見 這是黃執掌這個我看你們在書面報告第四頁裡面你們也有提到在目前需要在你們提到說必須為了避免司法權對行政權有過度的干預所以必須在事後救濟已無實意的情形下時有事前救濟的必要性對不對這個是關於行政訴訟法上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
337.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
351.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對 行政訴訟法上的事實上實務這個是你們所提出來的看法但在實務的判決上面的參照我們參照實務判決裡面事實上包括最高行政法院的裁定2183號裁定還有98年度的1515號 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
356.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
380.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
判決裁定他們都有有關行政機關的作為如果對人民發生重大有重大損害之餘得以其他適當的方式避免者不在此限都有用這些相關的這些判例他來讓這個這個這個可能的突破法律的這個規範的適用的這個框架的這樣子的途徑他有規定一些要件對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
381.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
395.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想這個並沒有什麼突破法律因為解釋適用上行政訴訟法的一般給付處分就是第八條的裡面就解釋適用上包含了這種違法性的不作為處分因為時間的關係所以我沒有重複我們這個剛剛已經有提過的這些法律適用有關行政訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
428.089 |
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這個行政程序法它用第115條來準用民事訴訟法準用民事訴訟法的246條啦那在憲法訴訟法裡面又用這個第46條憲法訴訟法第46條來而且參考這個行政訴訟法第307條之一的這個體例它來整個來適用行政訴訟這行政程序法再用行政程序法再來準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
429.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
444.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個民事訴訟法所以它是準用再準用之後這個就這個預防性的權利救濟是不是能夠適用如果用這一條的解釋這個贊成的方面他們就是認為應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
445.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
467.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這是因為訴訟程序的規定就是很多人會用這種方式准用是因為不用重複規定那法理相通的地方也有相關的案件可以來參照不過我們可以看得出來從行政訴訟法去准用民事訴訟法的時候其實它的要件都有一些不同那當然憲法訴訟法怎麼樣是憲法法庭才會自己去審查這最後當然還是取決於憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
469.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
486.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我請問副秘書長現在我要問司法院的意見我們過去的釋憲的實務或者是過去立審判決的實務上面是不是有預防性權力救濟的適用的例子有或者是有相似的情形可以做類推適用的情形有沒有請司法院這邊說明一下我請書記廳長回覆這個部分過去的釋憲實務跟立審判決的實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
492.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
509.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
跟委員說明如果是以今天在我們報告裡面所定義的這個預防性的權利救濟那這個部分在過去的法制面跟實務面並沒有明確這樣具體的說法不過可以跟委員說明的是這是沒有具體的說法但是有沒有類似的情形可以類推的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
509.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
535.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
如果要拿來說討論的話在舊治時代曾經有一種解釋類型是憲法疑義的解釋類型那這個憲法疑義的解釋類型在當時就有立法院立法委員在審議法案的時候認為審議中的法案有違反憲法的疑義申請大法官進行解釋不過這邊要說明的是這樣的一個解釋類型在憲法訴訟新制的時候已經把它刪除掉了以上有沒有這個可以這個支比這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
538.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
557.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
援引的這個法理或者是外國的立法力這個部分就我個人粗淺的了解並沒有這麼明確的說法好那這個我想剛才因為我們我們這個胡昭偉有特別講說贊成他認為在這個在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
561.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
關於預防性權力救濟在這個憲法訴訟上面的適用是極端少數的學說吳釗瑋剛才說這是極端少數的學說但是事實上它是不是極端少數的學說或者說就這個憲法解釋是不是能夠適用這個預防性的暫時處分這樣子的做法事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
585.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
613.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我這個舉一個例子啦我們以這個當年馬英九總統所提名的大法官我們蘇永慶大法官他就在昨天在聯合報他就發表文章他的主旨當然是說政院務把憲法法庭當工具這個立場是非常清楚的但是他在文章裡面非常清楚的寫到說違憲審查的制度設計是否只能以生效法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
615.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
632.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
答案不是那麼絕對這就表示什麼這就表示他在學說上面有贊成的有反對的這個是現在學術上面的現況至於你是贊成的到底是不是屬於極端的少數那個就變成是主觀判斷了連我們這個蘇永清前大法官他也說 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
634.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
657.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
是不是只能以生肖的法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對而且他後面還提到說法國過去採用這樣的制度那德國憲法法庭的建制初期也對抽象的這個憲政問題表示過同樣的這樣的看法也就是說這不是所謂極端少數的學說而是他確實是在世界外國立法律上面也有採用而且他是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
657.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
687.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
一定要以生肖的法律作為這個釋憲的這個課題這個東西不是那麼絕對這個我想是大家在學術上面大家基本上有共同的認知所以這個我想就學術上面他當然有贊成的有反對的不同意見那在實際上面究竟這個這次的這個限數法的修正可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
687.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
710.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
可不可以準用這個我們這個預防性權力救濟的方式來進行這個釋憲我想這個我問次長有沒有用我問秘書長有沒有用他最後還是取決於憲法法庭對不對我們立法院在這邊開會開到天翻地覆大家做表決一致同意起立鼓掌也沒有用還是最後還是要看憲法法庭對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
712.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
727.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想這個問題我想今天我就釐清到這裡我也讓大家知道說這個東西並不是說在學術上面真的是所謂少數極端那另外接下來齁這個時間已經到了我再借兩分鐘啦我不會用十分鐘我覺得兩分鐘的時間我這個上個禮拜感謝感謝就兩分鐘這個另外一個議題啦齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
736.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
761.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
上個禮拜我們陸委會有提到說剛才陳俊宇委員大概也有就這個問題來詢問過我們司法院就是說我們陸委會在上個禮拜提到呼籲法官要與時俱進要設立國安法庭第二天我們司法院就發了新聞稿澄清說明就是說你們已經有設國安法庭了是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
769.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
772.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所有每一家法院都已經設了那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
774.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
797.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個你們的設置不只一般民眾不知道啦連我們國家的陸委會都不知道你們有沒有設置所以可見你們這個有關於設置這個國安法庭的部分那大家看到這些目前社會上普遍輿論對於一些目前國安案件的這些相關的審判結果都認為說是不是因為我們沒有設專庭或者是我們的這個法官對於國安的這些相關的認知不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
800.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
809.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不夠專業啦齁但是結果我看你們的說明你們有提到說你們這個自109年起齁陸續舉辦國家安全研習會案例研習座談會邀集省檢國安檢察機關學者共同研討請國安機關安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
820.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
838.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
協助安排課程對不對是不是是的這個持續都一直在進行那我最後最後我就就就不再不再敘述了我就問提出問題那請你們能夠回答就回答不能夠回答請你們用書面在三個月內提出一個書面報告就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
840.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
857.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
現在法官參與你們所提到這些國家安全相關的研習會跟案例座談會目前法官的參與人數這是第一個問題第二問題是不是有成效的評估報告這是第二個問題第三個問題是不是所有審理國安案件的法官都必須強制接受相關的訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
858.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
879.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這是第三個問題第四個問題目前這個國家你們所提到的國安局軍事情報局海巡署等實地的教學是不是已經有固定的合作機制還是臨時性的安排是不是有具體的成果課程的具體的成果這是第四個問題請問一併回答到時候書面一併回答第五再來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
881.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
901.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們目前有一個指引啦我看你們的新聞稿裡面有提到一個有焦點團體建議法院辦理國家安全犯罪樣態量刑審酌時以允註意事項的指引對不對目前有這個指引啦在實務上是不是已經被法官廣泛的採用這個指引這個是接下來另外一個問題最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
903.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
914.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們目前的這些審判採用的標準是不是有這個標準不一的情況的存在這些問題請在三個月內提出個書面報告可以嗎可以好 謝謝現在麻煩機關依據審委員的要求在三個月內 |