| IVOD_ID |
158840 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158840 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
28 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-13T11:37:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-13T11:50:11+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/293c543958a38e4718bc057479d036f0b1c135165b29e3b361db096989fe9a7bec6d484a9071cdc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:37:33 - 11:50:11 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部率所屬相關單位列席就「號召民眾上街對抗司法審判者為妨害司法公正罪之現行犯？」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
（一）行政院函請審議「律師法第九條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「律師法第九條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員吳沛憶等23人擬具「律師法第九條條文修正草案」案。） |
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謝謝趙偉 有請我們法務部部長還有司法院廳長有來請鄭部長 還有司法院廳長李廳長請 |
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部長跟廷長今天我們召委排這個專報這個報告就號召民眾上街對抗司法審判者為妨害司法公正罪的現行犯就大家都把這個文字唸出來而已這個是後面其實加了一個問號那這樣的一個題目在野黨的朋友當然會跳腳但我倒覺得是很值得社會大眾來討論我不曉得你怎麼樣去看待 |
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今天請司法院來做報告 還有法務部來做報告你說在野黨這一次在司法節就在司法節當天嘛 號召了這麼多的民眾來上街頭 |
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67.287 |
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那如果真的要去解讀這一場的一個集會遊行的話那其實啊 你把它定性成說 號召民眾上街來對抗司法的審判者 我認為是對的 |
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82.298 |
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我認為是對的那只是說到底是不是妨礙司法的公正的一個現行犯鍾佳銘召委是把他畫上一個問號他是要提供啊在整個社會大眾來做一個省思啊那 |
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98.206 |
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123.767 |
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台灣民眾黨的黨主席啊這是在我們台灣算大咖的啦當他參選過總統嘛然後人當入獄被收押在這偵辦的一個過程裡面那其實有很大的一個波折很大的一個波折那在檢察官申請羈押以後在偵辦申請羈押以後那台北地方法院他也去把他交保交保那檢察官就抗告高等法院就把他給撤銷 |
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127.079 |
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那再去加保再抗告撤銷 |
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再回來變羈押那難免啊 站在世衛大眾的看法就是說臺灣 臺北地方法院整個法官 這個法官的看法翻來覆去會有這樣的想法 合理喔 不對嗎 這合理喔檢察官的思維 倒很一致倒很一致 他就認為你犯這個重罪 你該不該收押所以呢 只要不是收押的 只要是拒保的我全部都是抗告 |
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倒是守得很 守得很住他的一個立場那這可是站在司法院 站在司法院你其實也沒辦法去干涉啦沒辦法去干涉 台灣特別地方法院每一個 不要說院長啦連這個整個審判的這些法官裡面每一個人各自有他 形成他的一個新政啦形成他一個新政可是呢 我覺得比較可惜的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
184.275 |
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在司法節這一天 號召了這麼多群眾那其實這個就是一種政治力對司法的一個對抗我的解讀 也很合理啊廷長你不覺得這個就是 本來就是政治力要對抗司法只是說他這個訴求合不合理合不合理可是呢111 電鍋機然後呢 這個電鍋機以後呢他好像在聲討賴清德這也不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.223 |
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我聽起來這都太跳動了我請教部長說偵辦台灣民眾黨黨主席柯文哲這個案子你曾經打過任何一通電話給城灣檢察官嗎 |
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223.508 |
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240.634 |
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這個我不會打電話你不會打電話總統會曾經跟你關切這個案子一定要怎麼處理嗎這個不會所以不會啊如果說賴總統他也沒有曾經針對過台灣民眾黨的黨主席柯文哲這個案子去指示你法務部部長他跟你說111電鍋機要聲討賴清德總統然後聲討綠色威權好像綠色恐怖一樣這個也不通要聲討的應該要聲討你 |
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250.877 |
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266.78 |
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你會不會沒中呢今天我號召一大堆人上街頭我一定要來聲討候副部長 會不會你看到啊就像你說的 總統也不怕你 也不跟你關切就要問問問話 到底你有跟人關切前一定要收押嗎我這個邏輯如果這樣講的話應該還比較通一點但是呢政治利基介入的時候就不用講證據了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
278.328 |
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303.383 |
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政敵我們去別的地方 不然你自己說政局的啦他是頭啊柯文哲是台灣民眾黨的老大黃國昌委員現在代理主席他聲援他的老大是合理的這像幫派在聲援一樣啊政治利益介入到最後就是雙方在做一個對抗啦你說我們在省這麼多預算的時候他來集會 你說我們省預算他看你一百零四萬的這個整個翻譯費用那個都已經是小兒科啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.673 |
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328.646 |
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沒有這個案件的時候 你的預算全部都合理啦你抓了他的老大去以後 你所有的預算全部都不合理啦就變成這樣子啦 可是呢有這麼多人跑出來以後 我倒反而會覺得我們法務部跟司法院也要做一個反省喔真的要去做一個反省 第一個為什麼這麼多人跳出來第二個就是說 你們怎麼樣去回應 |
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330.086 |
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358.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
怎麼樣去為自己辯護任何人執政台灣各個政黨執政到現在我看司法的公信其實都不高都不高很特殊很特殊我一直形容司法很脆弱所以我常常對司法委員我都表達支持要你們再去精進那對於我們的整個法務部很多我們法院我覺得不合理的地方我也會站在對立面可是像這種案件在司法節這麼多群眾上街頭的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
381.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我覺得你們總要藉著這個機會跟社會大眾來做一個回應吧博定 你的看法你們總要有立場啊對 我們是贊同委員的一個寶貴的意見我想有必要我們會適時的做一個回應應該要回應 我認為司法院也該回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
383.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
廷長您的看法呢謝謝委員的指教那司法院在應該是在禮拜四當天就曾經發過一個新聞稿就針對說我們司法院立場還是捍衛我們的司法獨立這個是不可撼動的一些理念那我們希望大家給司法有一個純淨的審判空間以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
427.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一個案件 尤其是司法 民眾常常都會有解讀會有歧義啊那你像在我們司法偵辦當中啊一個案子裡面尤其是重罪啊在地院跟高院來來去去啊這個都是司空見慣了啦地院的法官對整個案情的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
433.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為你說有羈押的有羈押的條件程度已經條條件都成就了觸犯了重罪那還有可能有逃亡也有可能會淹沒證據你為了保全證據或者為了保全被告有的法官做出來的是用拒保的方式來做一個替代可是呢有的法官就會認為說這不給你羈押我男女對整個後面的訴訟繼續來做進行看法會有所不同就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
大家都認為是重罪了社會大眾會認為 壓壓壓尤其殺人犯罪我在職業的過程裡面啊那八十幾年那個時候 只要是槍支啊全部都是壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
475.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
494.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
只要是重罪他就認為說把你放出去你那個有一支槍搞不好又生出哪裡又藏了一支槍所以只要犯了整個槍枝啊持有槍枝啊我看我的職業過程裡面啊八十幾年那段期間沒有一個案件說你持有槍枝又把你給放掉的沒有全部都羈押 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
497.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
514.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
有啊都符合極下條件啊我們也常常當律師常常在講說你這個不一定有必要性啊可是法官就給你裁下去啊啊常常呢高院也都支持啊可是現在走到現在台灣是一個民主國家民主的一個社會啊所以鍾佳斌委員他今天弄一個號召 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
民眾上街頭來對抗司法審判者我認為這是政治力在對抗司法審判者所以他要大家來討論就是說是不是司法公正罪的一個現行犯他畫下了一個問號逐公大家來做一個討論那這個討論其實都值得我們法務部跟司法院好好做一個省事因為我長期一直在觀察我們整個司法民眾對他的一個信賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
539.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
548.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
其實也不是台灣司法公信低啦全世界都不會太高啦 不會太高啦可是呢 我們也真的是低得比較離譜啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
549.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
556.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
尤其是只要有高度的政治性的時候 常常會引起這麼多的爭議可是他的頭被抓去以後 你說去期待這個案子在社會上都沒有波折 也不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
571.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
594.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
社會的公信我反而會覺得為什麼會覺得說法務部要有立場司法院要有立場你都沒有立場就代表111上街頭這些人的立場你悶不吭聲好像是在默認這也不行這個對整個司法的公信也是一種摧殘但是法務部我倒會覺得部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
595.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
604.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我曾經在這個地方就曾經示警這種高度政治性的偵查的過程裡面要特別謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
605.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
633.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不管是證據的一個取得或者偵辦過程當中像我們不是也在這個地方也討論過偵查公不公開的問題我看也很多人砲轟你我也常常跟你講說那個公開洩密這些對象也未必來自於檢察官甚至於常常有一些案件檢察官去偵辦的時候你們還是落在媒體之後落在政治人物之後因為很多當事人會來爆料 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
634.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
645.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那我們有時候爆料了我們就直接轉給你們那你們再去偵查那或者說人家去向報社投訴向週刊投訴人家掌握的資料都比你們還要多那你們就一直去查證查證查證查證查證到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
647.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
671.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
有時候你要窮盡整個司法之力不可能嘛但問題是你們去勾結出很多方向人家原始掌握的資料比你們還多就寫了一大堆但重點是偵查過程裡面啊常常被外面的媒體這樣把你完全命中這個確實是我們法務部這個地方啊這個被質疑的地方我們也真的有必要去改進這補充力看完 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
674.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
690.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個謝謝委員的寶貴意見,我想我們也努力那的確如果這種情形的話,我想我們會再加緊努力是啦,我們真的都不希望看到說整個司法這樣的一個公信力在因為政治力的一個介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
691.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
711.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那遭受外界這麼大的一個質疑啊尤其是這兩個禮拜 其實在審預算 這個會議在審預算那我們 宗教兵委員他也非常認真他就把一些法案也都放進來可是呢司法的公正啊 我都不覺得說修幾個條文啊司法就可以達到公正啊長期以來啊 長期以來司法被質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
718.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
732.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
像我們在講脫逃罪現在又要放進整個妨礙司法公正如果放兩三個條文進去司法就可以達到民眾的要求大家都對你非常信賴你多放幾個條文我雙手雙腳都給你贊成立法院馬上給你通過所以司法的公信要建立不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
738.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
753.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
民眾他有他的要求但是司法院跟我們法務部這個地方確實喔這個嚴正的態度還有這個過程裡面減少民眾去多所質疑的地方這個真的是還有精進的地方啦要再努力啦好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員 謝謝鄭部長所有登記發言 |