| IVOD_ID |
158662 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158662 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-02T14:23:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-02T14:37:47+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5bdb582f43b78ac9cc921d2cbf1168e4050eef425ccc1d4da06b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:23:05 - 14:37:47 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：請勞動部、衛生福利部、教育部就「推動友善職場、校園性騷擾與霸凌防治及長照悲歌並檢討現行長照制度缺失與長照3.0規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
10.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
12.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩等一下喔 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
32.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
口水味道很濃郁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
76.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
麻煩請那個勞動部長村委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
86.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
103.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
部長好 勞動部的這個臉書先前有傳出這個涉及司長的霸凌你們有處理嗎有 已經在臉書出來前一天我們其實就已經立案調查了因為這個已經被媒體公開那根據這個投訴的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
132.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
似乎是部署對於長官的不滿而投訴那整體看起來跟霸凌的關聯性似乎不是有直接的關係整體看起來比較像是在潑髒水詆毀啦那而且還有這個數百字的指控竟然一字不差的由不同的人重複的PO在這個就是重複的PO上去那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
152.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
就是說而且這些個人的檔案都是封鎖起來的那最近當然我們也常受到網軍的攻擊那很多網軍的這個帳號也是都封鎖起來的這個和我們平時受到這個網軍攻擊的手法似乎是如出一策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
152.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
177.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
只是說這個內容他不是AI而是說對而是由那個對於勞動部內部的事情寥若指掌的人來就是撰寫的那而且就是說這內容呢裡面內容對於同仁的裙子有多長絲襪穿什麼顏色都知道我想要請教部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
179.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
202.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
假如這兩位可能升署長的司長被鬥下來之後呢後續有哪些人可能可以取而代之那這些取而代之的人有沒有可能又接續著就成為被攻擊的對象或被潑髒水的對象我不曉得部長看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
227.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
跟陳委員說明因為這個事件有媒體有報導那我這邊簡單說一個說明我們目前看到這個投訴之前他也透過各種管道有投訴進來所以在他在臉書的留言貼出來之前前一天我們其實就已經找了外部委員立案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
228.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
246.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那也因為已經找了外部人立案了所以當時我們才把這個留言做隱藏因為裡面涉及到一些個資那我們已經開始調查可是我跟陳委員說明我們沒有從說這是哪一個身牽怎麼樣怎麼樣的角度我想從勞動部的角度我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
247.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
274.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
查明事實把事實弄清楚這樣很好都沒有關係但是我想本席今天想要提醒有一個重點就是說當然今天召委排定的議程題目是一個友善的職場那如果說在這個職場上有少數人以霸凌之名隨意指控這個管理者那各式各樣的問題那麼在未來的這個霸凌專法或者這個霸凌專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
275.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
300.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
會有機制處理嗎難道就是說各部會可以容許職場上這種捕蜂捉蠅然後就是說蜂蚊機可查辦的現象嗎那這樣的職場會友善嗎因為我現在其實我們這樣子稍微聊一下都可以看到其實各部會全體同仁上下應該都是人心惶惶吧現在就很多人也是無心工作跟陳委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
301.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
318.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們基本上我覺得最重要的就是把真相查明那所以也許有人投訴坦白說也有可能是捕風捉影也有可能是用就是沒有明確的事實事證甚至也不是不可能是有抹黑的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
343.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以最重要的事情最重要的事情就是把事實查明那我們當然會對於投訴的人陳情的人予以這個該做的保護我們會做保護可是我從一個機制面來看的話我該做的事情就是把事實查明查明勿枉勿重以後再做後續的處理如果是捕風捉影當然也透過事實的查明去釐清沒有這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
360.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為我時間有限本席還有一些想提醒的事情就是說我想當然最重要的原則就是說對於任何一個具體有具體霸凌行為的人我們都應該要勿挽勿縱那任何的檢舉或者陳情都應該要具名負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
361.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
374.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以未來的專法他是會看到黑影就開槍還是只是嚴查具名檢舉的案子或者是另外調查過程當中難免會遇到這個當事者產生這個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那所以為了公平那應該說不僅吹哨者要保護那對於被吹哨的當事者在事證未釐清之前是不是也應該要本與無罪推定給予應有的保障呢我會同意這個想法這是為什麼我們那時候在勞動部的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
420.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
留言裡面我們認為應該要先做隱藏的原因因為這事情都還在待查明的過程裡面所以我們覺得那個裡面的留言的內容涉及到一些個資應該要隱藏不是刪除好那所以我現在要講的是說你們可以去判斷嘛如果有人天天滿腦子都在想著收集資料然後要檢舉長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
441.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那就是說而且這種人還如此熟悉鍾情於這個網路的操作那我就想請教嘛這樣的人他會把心思放在工作上嗎啊大家可以去部長可以去想一想嘛而且我也好奇就是說部長你如何看待職場的倫理跟管理這個問題然後你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
443.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
471.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
都可以去分辨什麼是真正的霸凌檢舉或者只是網路操作帶風向的然後再惡搞嗎可不可以分辨我還是要跟委員說我覺得去透過查明事實包括要對於相關的人做出明確的訪談我覺得這件事情很重要其實如果我覺得每個部會或者是行政機關我們把查明這件事實給做好我覺得也可以讓那些想要透過胡亂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
472.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
492.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
爆料或者是抹黑的人知道這樣子的動作其實是沒效的所以我說還是要說明我覺得要能夠查明是最重要的事情對 所以我們的霸凌未來這個霸凌討論的這個霸凌的專章或者專法應該也都彼此要有一個制衡的方式嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
520.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對所以我也不同意只要有爆料就好像就必須假設這個爆料一定是真的我覺得這其實也不合理我現在要講的是說當然既然就是說檢舉者要具名嘛那被檢舉者要調查那麼調查的結果難道就不需要說讓這個兩造雙方都知道嗎我想這很重要吧而且還是說我們就是這個輕描淡寫然後穿過水無痕 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
547.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有當然不是啊那舉例喔我舉例就是說如果調查霸凌成立要實施這個懲處那麼調查的成員跟結果也應該要能夠被直攜才有預防的效果那同樣的道理喔如果不成立也應該還人家一個清白才對那反之這個霸凌或者其他的不實指控不成立誣告的人誣告者難道都不需要懲處嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
548.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
572.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我想這個是建立友善職場一個很重要、必要的綱紀那我不曉得部長認不認同本席的說法我是很好奇那個誤告者要不要被懲處,我也想請教部長我認為,我自己的看法是確實會有一些他的陳情他會說這是霸凌,可是實際上他可能是對管理的方式有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
574.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
595.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
他可能對管理的方式但是其實沒有涉及到所謂的職場霸凌那確實管理可能有各種不同的意見可是我想我們現在很難去說對於誣告的人他就要怎麼樣的甚至我可以跟陳委員說明有很多他如果是想要捕風捉影的他甚至都是用匿名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
596.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
606.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就像剛剛他可能更多他會用匿名的方法或者是假名的方法來去做陳述這是我們在裡面看到的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
610.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
625.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我有看到這個內容可是我還是要跟陳委員說我不方便去說現在去說哪一個爆料就一定是真的哪一個是爆料是假的這件事情都還是要進到立案以後然後由調查的人去確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
626.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
643.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
事實的真相然後是不是吻合然後吻合的話那到底他是屬於哪幾類的狀況我覺得可能還是要進到這個過程所以我自己我現在做一個部長我不是我現在就直接去說哪一個這個爆料的內容是對的或這個爆料的內容是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
643.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
673.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我想我今天也沒有要我今天也沒有要針對個案但我覺得最重要的是我想要提醒部長就針對我們要就是說未來可能要討論的這個專法跟專章的問題有重要的事情我要提醒部長就是說新的霸凌專法是不是適用公務人員你要想一想那如果是霸凌專章那是不是職安法的專章所以只適用這個勞工而不適用僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
674.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
700.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這裡的差別我想職安署應該是最清楚因為具有僱主跟合夥者身份的人在工作場所因工作原因並不是職業災害那當然主要是僱主不受職安法的保護所以在未來老闆去霸凌人家或者被霸凌的時候可能就不算是職場霸凌了真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
702.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
724.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個有可能發生的現象那還有就是說霸凌者在勞基法的架構之下是不是還可以不服然後去地方主管調解甚至說要求申訴等就近所以我在這裡本席要特別提醒勞動部面對這個霸凌成立之後呢可能還有問題要處理那何前部長呢因為第一版調查報告而辭職 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
726.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
745.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那因為他相信部署那部長 洪部長應該知道是說這部霸凌的專法或專章同樣都是受到我們全國關注的那提醒說要了解這個霸凌專法或者專章的重要性跟差異性在哪裡那我在衛環長時間的觀察啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
748.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
772.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
很多的勞動部長他的烏紗帽掉了一方面是自己缺乏危機判斷另一方面也可能就是太相信文官的見解所以也可以說是毀在文官的手上所以今天我想就是說本席要語重心長的引用何前部長在任內最後一次的背詢回答我們蘇清泉召委的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
772.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那這些話呢大家都可以在立法院的公報113卷第102期的307頁找得到何部長他要卸任前這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
785.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
804.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
面对庞大的官僚体系其实我是陌生的所以我也非常戒慎恐惧我期待与文官之间发展出合作友善的关系但是我忽略了文官体制之间有难以掌控的陋习跟恶习乃至于我不曾想象的邪恶问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
805.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
823.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
文官體制與民主政治體制存在著很多的鴻溝社群網路媒體對於文官的凌遲和剝削也不遑多讓這些話呢其實是本席要給這個繼任的這個勞動部長對不起 不是我啦我說這些話是 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
824.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
852.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那個我們河賢部長給繼任的勞動部長最後的公告那我只是拿出來再提醒一下那要提醒部長文官的這個霸凌跟內鬥這個非冰凍三尺也非一日之寒我也曾經在2016回來的時候受到波及啦 也很厲害內在太趴趴到我這裡來把我拖進去也寫我的黑函多厲害 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
853.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以要提醒喔這個最可怕的是他還會利用這個網路社群媒體甚至黑函的不實指控來利用就是說部長的陌生跟戒慎恐懼次長也一樣好那提醒就是說偏聽則廢監聽則明不要重蹈覆轍這是本席今天最大的提醒好謝謝謝謝陳偉恩謝謝陳偉恩謝謝部長接下來我們請 |