| IVOD_ID |
158605 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158605 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-02T09:24:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-02T09:41:57+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5c7ce8b3b58bcd05bc921d2cbf1168e408d75bdfb612c74e0d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:24:03 - 09:41:57 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：請勞動部、衛生福利部、教育部就「推動友善職場、校園性騷擾與霸凌防治及長照悲歌並檢討現行長照制度缺失與長照3.0規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席麻煩邱部長委員長部長你們那份不公開的霸凌調查報告人事處處長已經到我辦公室來說明我個人看過以後完全不能接受那部長你怎麼會去買單這個簡直是這個草率至極的由呂次長交出來報告我想請問你看過這個報告沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.182 |
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49.448 |
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你沒有看嗎 沒關係我來告訴你我是如何聆聽跟搶記的搶記 因為他把資料帶回去了部長你看一下投影片我們來看一下這個調查報告內容因為我收到最多的是衛福部來自對祖密的一個投訴我以他為例 因為資料很多以對祖密的調查總共有140份的這個匿名問卷當中有47份指出 |
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54.729 |
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劉祖密曾經歇斯底里的大聲咆哮這個佔了33.6%還有52份的問卷指出劉祖密有言語肢體或心理暴力的行為部長這個佔37%一個33.6%一個37%你不覺得這個調查的內容跟這個你的調查結論霸凌不成立有落差很大嗎三成的人都說他有霸凌行為結果調查說霸凌不成立 |
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84.452 |
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部長發生什麼事情你沒看過對不對你沒看過好你繼續我們尊重調查委員又來了你完全不負責任來除了這個問卷調查報告調查察署也有進行訪談我請你訪談的人是誰怎麼找的因為人事處長沒有辦法回答我你知道嗎怎麼找的 |
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好 我來教你好了 針對劉毅尊的案子訪問了17個人其中15位都說主命沒有問題你們就用這15個人的說法來說 霸凌沒有成立嗎但是其中17位裡面有2位受訪者寫出了這個東西還有50幾份問卷 剛剛我已經秀給大家看了 |
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131.246 |
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認為是有三十幾個person是認為是有霸凌的符合你們定的這個霸凌標準那個這幾份他說什麼劉玉娟在台北業務組沒有直接對我大聲咆哮但我看過幾次劉玉娟在同仁咆哮我不記得具體內容這是17份你們不知道怎麼挑的裡面的兩份有人這樣留 |
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149.795 |
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我們做得那麼辛苦還要被罵覺得很委屈錄音帶的內容就是我釋出的內容已經檢舉人同意跟我當時感受一樣很像他會講的話語氣就是他講的話風格讓我感到不舒服部長你們應該要建立機制啊那五十幾位說他有霸凌曾經經常或總是 |
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他沒有辦法接受訪談你就隨便找了十七個人裡面十五個人說他沒問題你認為這樣報告會不會失真啊部長如果你是我你收單嗎你買單嗎可不可以容許我請那個召集人理事來他不要不然我還要繼續理事長你好好聽你真的好好聽 |
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188.208 |
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207.3 |
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部長你繼續看頭影片上面這個字眼都是匿名的人留下的字眼你看衛福部員工就是你的管理的衛福部員工所用文字寫下來的恐懼你看中間衛福部官官相互只想吵吵結案官場現象對衛福部沒信心難道反應了就有用嗎可能是又只會被弄得更慘無法確保人身及職場安全因此無法留下聯絡資訊好右邊 |
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214.784 |
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225.109 |
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我們只是想要好好工作大家擔心的是被秋後算帳我仍在衛福部任職罷被秋後算帳所以不留可見的霸凌行為包括咆哮謾罵冷落惡意批評或貶低等多種樣態也出現明顯耍官威破壞組織體制好 左邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
231.532 |
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252.604 |
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擔心不可預測的後果會影響後續的權益被罵的最慘的是科長以及秘書同仁身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職如果沒有調查到對的人是沒有辦法問出事實的這是你的員工留下的文字恐懼我讓你做參考旅社長你也跟著聽 |
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254.085 |
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268.034 |
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部長為劉玉娟叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後你們記他兩個身屆免監社保司司長但外宣主義他還是質疑他還是主秘啊你一直告訴我們說主秘只是幕僚單位替他開脫你騙外行人啊來看看衛福部的處務規程主秘的職責是什麼第三條框起來的第二條 |
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279.081 |
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299.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
機密及重要文件的處理我當時就是擔心秋後算帳員工不肯講真話我問人事室處長他說他在管理沒有問題我說但是他是你的上司他叫你要看你不給他看嗎現在都不用看他事過境遷他完全可以看因為衛福部的機要跟重要資料機密資料都是他來講理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
326.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
部長在這個情況下誰敢說真話他的職權就是準備處理機密及重要文件之處理部長你繼續下來看 理事長你好好聽著來你看看這一張你一直告訴我尊重你又來了尊重這個小組的專業但是調查結果小組名單也不公佈調查結果也不讓大家知道我們看看勞動部兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 勞動部至少在第一次調查報告 載明了調查小組的成員公開的調查報告還傳上網你衛福部差很多 你輸兩天你跟我說的藉口 人家勞動部至少做到了你如果不知道怎麼做 你去問洪聖翰怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
346.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
366.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不過洪部長你現在也有新的案子發生我希望你秉持一貫的水準好好處理今天好像又有這個新的案子上次我們要求你公開報告你說私底下跟我們委員講如果有不滿意我們再進一步處理我現在就告訴你我不滿意證據我已經告訴大家了請問你要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
368.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
389.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你一直上次你跟這個呂次長一直說擔心擔心就是說被這個公開報告以後會讓人暗圖所記知道哪些人約談我看過報告就完全這個是這個完全是藉口啊你看我今天報告哪裡看出是誰被約談有嗎所以我今天已經再次提案了我跟總召報備了我要求公開報告重啟調查如果說誰要護短那我就表決我們來看看讓大家看看是誰在護短 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
398.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
到底誰要互轉動用心高規格然後又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告好 呂氏你可以請回了好 邱部長 現在我要來看台大醫院 台大醫院性騷案可不可以跟我們回答一下好 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
416.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我想非常感謝我們陳昭之委員我想對於我們同仁的這個關心我想這個我們大家都是一起希望能夠為同仁能夠創造一個更好的環境不過我想委員您應該我剛剛提到的那些缺點你那裡面的瑕疵那我們也都我想委員也都是在學術界也待過你也做過量化也做過質化研究特別是質化研究裡面我們有對當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
467.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你做任何研究之前或是做任何調查之前都有做這一個隱私保護我想這個都有簽所以我想這些都必須跑到程序上面所以我不滿意啦你當說我不滿意可以再繼續處理你就繼續處理好嗎所以我今天有臨時提案另外第二點我們這個整個確實整個過程呢我們都是你要想辦法讓人家公開講真話你別說他不肯來我就沒辦法啦那還調查什麼我們本來就是用公開的方式啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
468.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我剛剛講那麼多缺點你不要再反駁了你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了好 請回 吳院長你一邊聽 你上來說2019年8月台大急診部送診管理師動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部這已經發生了台大醫院博物室第一回2023年6月台大的女教授自己接錄自己在當研修醫師時曾在開刀房 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
遇到性騷擾自己站在對方背後去觀摩開刀實況時某教授說今天怎麼這麼小的評論一直說某教授無法從背後感知他胸部的大小今年9月去年應該是去年9月台大骨科部主任強制猥褻難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔好 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
529.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
除此之外去年六月金三科大佬李明斌一時也爆出性騷案他不僅僅是台灣自殺防治學會理事長也是衛福部委辦的台灣全國自殺防治中心計劃主持人 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
530.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
曾在台大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴李明斌的性騷行為是一件請聽好喔邱部長可能你還是要再再再席只要在台大精神醫學部受訓過的女性都必須了解被口耳相傳要交班要交班有這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
564.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
對於出入精神科的住院醫師來說幾乎是毀滅性的傷害所以當時就有醫師說院內三宿管道是最大的障眼法如果不痛定思痛會有無數個李明斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
565.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
請問吳院長今天台大大學派了個主秘來這個校長真是藐視國會將近一年半的時間你有痛定思痛嗎你們做了什麼吳院長對這個醫師對林明斌的指控你做了什麼還有前面的部分做了什麼指控做了什麼改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
605.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那我可以先回答一下我其實上面有數據只要有申訴人提出欣賞事實上在院內已經處理從110年就處理過很多的後面還有很多問題那我先從黃姓李教授這件問題我一定要澄清因為黃姓李教授他當 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
611.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
637.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這不是在這邊澄清問題,我們要求的是一個調查報告,我們一個制度的問題有有有,你們要求的報告我們一定都會有剛才我說邱部長,剛才我說李明斌的保魂,他現在還有重要職位專科醫學會你在乎這個問題嗎?還是你們要切割?你要持最高道德標準?他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了你確定?確定上次我們質詢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
640.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
669.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是你要用辦法你不是說這次因為要堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴所以你就做了一個因人設事處理好我還有後面的台大婦產部主任楊主任楊主任的聲明中提到你看他自己寫聲明自己獲悉西教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾以示以後為了保護被害人或協助其相關保全證據的證明僅私下詢問是否尚有其他人證或物證這個楊主任沒說得好一段話三句話三句話都有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
670.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
691.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
什麼叫自己獲悉難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎還是有人泄密不是只有當事人可以知道嗎他為什麼會自己獲悉第二個保護被害人並協助保全相關證據照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述啊他不應該知道被害人是誰啊性命犯調查是秘密進行他也沒有權利來保護什麼被害人的這個保全證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
692.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
704.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第三個是警司下詢問是否有其他人證物證我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風暴行帶風向啊他想要問這個被害人你到底知道什麼好回去跟這個西教授說他只有這個問題你還要辦法處理這像話嗎楊主任講這個話像話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
712.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
738.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你也知道我們全家都是台大校友該做的事,深則是切,不對的事就是要做台大下本部你接獲這個投訴案以後為什麼今天台大校長不過來兩邊推來推去,你晚交報告他要把你推回去,聽說來來回回十次到底是誰要隱瞞這個事情啊到底是誰想拖延這個事情啊來來回回,到現在沒有正式的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
740.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
763.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我可以給我一個時間我謝謝陳委員提悉性教訓拜託主席讓我講好你講沒有就是說你很快的告訴我我剛剛只問你的問題來來回回這麼多次在拖延嗎這件事情其實是院方主動立案因為沒有申訴人我們聽聞有這樣的消息主動立案那第二個我們總共開了一次工作小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
785.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不對啊 那些醫師考完專科醫師執照就趕去來跟很多人申訴喔沒有沒有 那個都有給我知道我們有把那個然後有六次調查報告然後有兩次委員會你就是持交嘛他有一定的時間 你就是持交嘛沒有沒有沒有持交因為根據我們的那個其實在二月立案六月就已經做出懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
786.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
807.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一直說他的報告你的報告不完整啊挑剔你啊沒有申訴人他沒有時間的一個報告但是院方主動根據我們那個性騷髮的那個規定大家委員可以看假如是有申訴人必須要再二加一個院你的處理我還有很多意見好那我再講楊主任並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
808.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
831.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
並不是裡面的委員所以他知悉是因為他被調來做在調查小組裡面的時候他是被叫來問他才知道有這件事情所以楊子潤他沒有講得很清楚謝謝委員給我一個澄清因為事實上台大醫院這裡未必澄清你講的未必是事實我們都還認證好好沒問題我們都有紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
832.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
855.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
兩位部長跟人你們看看台大醫院的這個工會在12月12號就是不久前一個月前聲明台大醫院性騷事件工會會要完善性平制度你們兩個有沒有看到這個這份聲明他向台大醫院院方指出說他說要公佈性平會的成員名單除了可以讓當事人檢視以外也可以加強外部機制但是你們始終不可我想請問你發生這麼多事情以後院長你還強調說這個性平會委名單不能公佈嗎為什麼人家這個勞動部可以公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
862.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
888.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
然後外部部我覺得工會有他們的立場你的姓平會根本沒有成員我們在這裡也要必須要講有沒有外部專家工會有他們的立場但是不一定都會講明這是對的姓平會是不是有外部專家有 有外部專家你都不公開啊我們這時候都專家當時道德部製程還告訴我們有外部專家我們就是姓平委員會還有這一次我怎麼信任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
891.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
897.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以我剛剛提出提案啊你名單又不公佈告訴我們有外部專家你們在騙誰 扶誰名單是沒有辦法公佈但是我們的委員裡面有三位外部都是這相關的專家然後每次的調查案都還會有兩個律師那都你說的啦 我看沒啦對 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
910.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
916.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是但是這個我只能夠跟你講事情就一直在遭還沒有結案當事人謝教授也沒有收到懲處還沒有正式懲處對不對還有很多這個居間這個在台大醫院在台大醫院我們是積極的調查我們也立即從這個結果主動調查不管您說的幾位案件但是他們有一些他的本質還是在叫職 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
936.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
942.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以在醫院的部分我們絕對是非常積極的調查也很清楚的有這個調查報告這都有一面之詞嘛這都有一面之詞這個都有調查報告而且在六月份的時候考積委會已經寄達過一次那為什麼不公佈我跟你講你公佈有公佈的方法學學勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
954.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
974.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
因為它不是法律案件所以沒有辦法公佈台灣不是法律案件你要破壞繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎其實我們還是公家單位要有法可以有法可以依法行政這件事情台大醫院都依法行政因為我們也主動通報其實你看那個性騷法只屬的台北市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
975.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
992.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那個禁殺法裡面都有我想今天我們在立法院我們在公家機關我們做事就是要有法可依有法可行依法行政這件事情我們都依法行政我們的結果也不只給台灣大學我們也給台北市醫師公會也有給全聯會然後有相關的衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
994.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1013.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
或甚至你剛才講你批的那個也是送給總統府所以我們完全依法而且立即處理那真的是挑燈夜戰沒有一分的延遲那另外我在這裡也趁機我想這裡有很多媒體我在這裡趁機一次把謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1013.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1024.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
在這個案子裡面在整個調查過程當中並沒有台大醫院並沒有受到任何的壓力我們也沒有收到任何的關訴我不知道這是從何而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1026.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1032.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
你要聽聽被害人的聲音啊 你身為院長好 最後你們是自己臺灣女醫師協會對姓名事件的聲明這個我不在這邊同念因為整個姓名三法的不同身份狀態事件發生或情境等等 適用不同那看似好像可以適用 但是實務進度上可能造成這個法規適用的重疊或者漏洞我跟你講每個機構都有說要申報內部的申報機制 但是不好嘛部長你剛剛談到 我舉給你看嘛 140個人你找出了誰 你怎麼找的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1056.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1070.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那台大醫院這件事情都還沒有解決啊這個都醫生考完專科醫師指導才敢出來講才敢跟立委申訴啊表示什麼他害怕啊害怕啊院長請你好好三思齁我這時間到了不然我還有更好的表達好謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有吳院長 |