| IVOD_ID |
158485 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158485 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-20-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-30T09:37:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-30T09:47:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/358c3f0dd56dd1e0a24797a926a29b504f10c035d50fc6487c1494669c19844f7676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳秉叡 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:37:24 - 09:47:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】） |
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陳主計跟陳主計長陳主計長兩位早齁財政收支劃分法當然如果要檢討是要談收跟支啦但這一次倉促修法最嚴重的問題是只有談收沒有談支那收的部分 |
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還只有談水平分配垂直分配裡面都沒有經過詳細的討論我想請教這個立法院12月20號三讀之後現在送到行政院了沒目前來說我們並沒有收到並沒有說任何有收到這個條文的訊息 |
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那負密法是不是也一樣沒有收到這個法律的修正目前還沒收到吧收到之後行政院有幾天的時間內可以提負密是不是十天內法律的規定所以就算最快今天收到要 |
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決定要不要復議也是1月8日、1月9日的事情就算加上禮拜六、禮拜天所以事實上雖然這個三讀通過了但是還沒有生效現在聽起來行政院好像是要提復議復議完之後有可能還要再釋憲目前要走的是這樣最大最被詬病的也報告裡面有寫到 |
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沒有支的部分了所謂收支支就是說市權要做哪一些增加的開支所以要多花哪一些錢所以每一個地方政府要多得到多少錢這是不是支的部分是不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
118.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
吳秉叡 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
163.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好,那一個最大的問題,剛剛老師有別的委員提到這個問題,他說財政宣傳法很久了都沒有修,這也確實一個事實,其實是從這個精神的時候李登輝先生當總統的時候修過一次, |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
164.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
176.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
之後就到現在後面李登輝當總統還有一段期間再來就是陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到現在賴清德先生擔任總統中間我記得應該是30出頭年 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
181.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
189.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那中間國民黨當立法院的多數也非常多屆阿事實上到第9屆第10屆這兩屆才民進黨多數捏第6屆第7屆第8屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
197.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
211.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國民黨占多數的時間是很長喔尤其第7屆的立委啊立法院113席民進黨總共才20幾席27席其他都是國民黨的那時候占了70幾席不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
212.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
231.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那在這樣的狀況之下那時候的在野黨就是民進黨的先制首長也在說要修財政收支劃分法那就剛剛就主計長講的因為那時候包括現在的總統當然台南市長都發現如果依照當時的分配真的拿不出錢來連要繳這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
235.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
要給年終獎金都有問題嘛所以我記得那個時候都還有預借的這個制度地方政府跟中央政府先預借錢來發年終獎金然後過了年終再用隔年的去補公式相同那為什麼那時候的財政狀況跟現在的財政狀況差這麼多就是因為發家庭的人經濟生長到底做得有好事沒好事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
261.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
287.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
馬英九在當總統的時候我第八屆立委的第一年國家總預算才一兆四千億一兆五千多億現在三兆一千億是多了一倍多所以當然因為收入不一樣從疫情開始之後臺灣的經濟在世界上可以說是翹楚每一年每一年都很快的速度在增加所以如果照公司來分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在地方政府得到的錢就像你講的一年已經盈餘六百多億了當然是全部的加總在一起包括我所在的新北市連續四年財政結算都是plus都是正數吧不僅沒有欠錢還有能力可以還錢那在這樣的狀況之下如果好好的討論權責該如何劃分收跟資應該如何劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
317.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
當然這個事應該是可以好好來討論啊我們也願意討論啊我記得媒體的揭露院長也有跟在一黨說是不是再給我們一段時間到了明年的5月以前絕對可以提出行政院的版本結果在一黨不肯說這個會期非通過不可結果通過這個東西只有把收的部分劃走一大部分吃的部分都沒談 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
367.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
照現在的試算版新北市可以增加375億當然如果站在我地方政府站在地方民意代表的態度越多越好我從別的地方搶來搶越多越好像馬祖一個人可以三十幾萬最好為什麼我們新北市只有兩萬六一個人的平均數啊那為什麼差了十幾倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
369.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個都是水平分配上面公視要去處理要去彌平的事情嘛結果都沒有討論啊沒有機會討論啊不過站在國家總體發展的情況來看你把中央政府的財政能力拿走之後沒有辦法調劑營需啦就是強者越強台北市越來越強他越抖越多越來越好越來越有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但是一些財政狀況比較困苦的縣市事實上就沒有辦法有辦法來有錢來處理一些問題像我的出生地臺東像澎湖縣像中南部的這些農業縣市或是說持續建設的一些過去縱南清北產生後遺症的這些縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
448.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
就沒有辦法去克服嘛,對不對?是,沒有錯,是,委員說的是好,那說這麼多之後再問一個問題啦他現在給你調整啦他現在給你這樣弄啦要把你撥走3700多億啦如果114年的總預算假設過這幾天或假設最好的狀況這一個會期延到1月21號以前通過或是沒有通過明年開春2月1號再任之後到了2月3月來補通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
451.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
477.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你的困難是在要如何解決?像現在中央政府平均都要找到20幾%那每一個施政項目如何去調劑?如何去調配?這一部分主計長你有什麼意見?因為相關的一個因應措施行政院目前正在研究還是必須要等相關因應措施我知道你的相關因應措施就是復議最多就是提視線嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
478.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那假設這兩個最後沒有辦法通過的時候你這個預算114年的預算你要如何執行我現在是問這個問題啊最壞的狀況來講的話你要怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
坦白說如果說我們預算通過我們其實是照案執行但是我們如果將來是必須面對要有刪減的部分像預算的籌編其實每個計畫要討論是要發生相當的多的時間那每個部會要減哪些的計畫還是必須主一的一個討論然後就針對這個部分他哪個計畫要保留哪個計畫要刪減 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後來做討論所以這個部分也相當耗費時間了所以這個部分就是有他的一個困難度存在以上說明所以意思是說你現在都還沒有討論好你現在心裡也沒有答案啊沒有那現在這樣子這個攤子要如何解決啊其實我是蠻同意有一些學者的看法當然不是全部啦就這個案子不要附屬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
538.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
559.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
通過一個你們自愛難行的 照理來講 這樣憲政的建議就應該多數黨要發 在國外的多數黨要發動倒閣嘛所以院長是不是不要附屬 可不可以考慮不要附屬啊我建議是不要附屬啦 如果以我對憲法的了解 不要附屬當然很有爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
579.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
595.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
595.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
讓憲法的這個憲政機構之間來做這個把這個問題凸顯出來不然這個問題今年會遇到明年又可能遇到喔明年再給你提期貨法案雖然說不得維生性預算的提案可是現在都用法律案硬要把你搞死啊所以今年這樣明年那還可能再繼續搞你捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
617.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
630.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以希望能把我的話帶到我建議行政院不要附屬這個法案那衍生的憲政爭議由憲法機構循憲政程序解決這是我的意見麻煩你們轉達謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:24+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2024-12-30T09:37:26.430000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
麻煩請財政部莊部長跟主計總處陳主計長。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
0.167 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:26.430000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2024-12-30T09:37:35.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
請莊部長、陳主計長。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
0.625 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:35.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2024-12-30T09:37:36.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
委員早。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:36.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2024-12-30T09:37:37.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:35.273000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2024-12-30T09:37:35.413000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
兩位早。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2024-12-30T09:37:36.934000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:00.603000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
財政收支劃分法當然如果要檢討是要談收跟支，但這一次倉促修法最嚴重的問題是只有談收，沒有談支，收的部分還只有談水平分配，垂直分配裡面都沒有經過詳細的討論。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:00.603000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:08.565000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
我想請教，立法院12月20號三讀之後，現在送到行政院了沒？ |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:11.185000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:16.427000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
目前來說，我們並沒有收到說有收到這個條文的訊息。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:20.063000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:23.004000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
副秘書長是不是也一樣沒有收到這個法律的修正？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.81 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:23.004000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:24.445000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
李副秘書長。 |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:24.445000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:25.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
目前還沒收到。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:26.026000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:28.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
收到之後，行政院有幾天的時間內可以提覆議？ |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:30.308000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:32.049000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
是不是10天內，法律的規定？ |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:32.049000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2024-12-30T09:38:33.290000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
是，法律的規定。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2024-12-30T09:38:33.910000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2024-12-30T09:39:00.082000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
所以就算最快今天收到，決定要不要覆議，也是1月8號、1月9號的事情，因為加上禮拜六、禮拜天，所以事實上雖然三讀通過了，但是還沒有生效，現在聽起來行政院好像是要提覆議，覆議完之後有可能還要再釋憲，目前要走的是這樣。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2024-12-30T09:39:00.082000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2024-12-30T09:39:20.887000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
最大、最被詬病的包括裡面有寫到，沒有支的部分，所謂收支，支就是事權要做哪一些增加的開支，要多花哪一些錢，所以每一個地方政府要多得到多少錢，支的部分是不是這個意思？ |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2024-12-30T09:39:20.887000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2024-12-30T09:39:36.102500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
是，因為我們收入的部分就是移過去3,753億，是9%再加上一般性補助6%，移過去15%，但是以前我們承接省政府業務有11%的部分，這相關的事權並沒有做移轉，所以這個部分如果事權留在中央，卻沒有相關的收入來支應，執行上會有相當的困難。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2024-12-30T09:39:36.102500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2024-12-30T09:39:51.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
以上說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2024-12-30T09:39:51.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2024-12-30T09:40:20.596000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
好，一個最大的問題，剛剛老是有別的委員提到這個問題，說財政收支劃分法很久都沒有修，這也確實是一個事實，其實從精省的時候、李登輝先生當總統的時候修過一次，之後就到現在，後面李登輝當總統還有一段期間，再來就是陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統，到現在賴清德先生擔任總統，中間我記得應該是三十出頭年。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.932 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2024-12-30T09:40:26.317000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2024-12-30T09:40:43.402000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
中間國民黨當立法院的多數也非常多屆，事實上到第9屆、第10屆這兩屆才是民進黨多數；第6屆、第7屆、第8屆國民黨占多數的時間是很長喔！ |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.981 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2024-12-30T09:40:44.282000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2024-12-30T09:40:55.169000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
尤其第7屆的立委，立法院113席，民進黨總共才二十幾席，27席，其他都是國民黨的，那時候占了七十幾席，不得了。 |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2024-12-30T09:40:56.798000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2024-12-30T09:41:20.443000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
在這樣的狀況之下，那時候的在野黨，就是民進黨的縣市首長，也在說要修財政收支劃分法，如剛剛主計長講的，包括現在的總統──那時候的臺南市長都發現，如果依照當時的分配，真的拿不出錢來，連要給年終獎金都有問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2024-12-30T09:41:21.063000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2024-12-30T09:41:31.350000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
所以我記得那個時候都還有預借的制度，地方政府要跟中央政府先預借錢來發年終獎金，然後過完年再用隔年的去補。 |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2024-12-30T09:41:31.350000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2024-12-30T09:41:36.174000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
公式相同，那為什麼說財政狀況跟現在的財政狀況差這麼多？ |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2024-12-30T09:41:37.494000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2024-12-30T09:41:43.719000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
就是因為持家的人經濟成長到底做得好不好嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.85 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2024-12-30T09:41:45.113000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2024-12-30T09:41:51.356000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
馬英九當總統的時候，第8屆立委的第一年，國家總預算才1兆4,000億耶！ |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.926 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2024-12-30T09:41:51.356000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2024-12-30T09:42:19.547000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
一兆五千多億，現在3兆1,000億是多了一倍多，當然因為收入不一樣，從疫情開始之後，臺灣的經濟在世界上可以說是翹楚，每一年、每一年都以很快的速度在增加，所以如果照公式來分配，現在地方政府得到的錢，就像你講的一年已經盈餘六百多億了，當然是全部加總在一起。 |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.973 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2024-12-30T09:42:20.588000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2024-12-30T09:42:33.375000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
包括我所在的新北市，連續4年財政結算都是plus、都是正數，不僅沒有欠錢，還有能力可以還錢。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2024-12-30T09:42:33.576000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2024-12-30T09:43:07.595000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
在這樣的狀況之下，如果好好地討論權責該如何劃分、收跟支應該如何劃分，當然這個事應該是可以好好來討論，我們也願意討論，我記得媒體的揭露，院長也有跟在野黨說是不是再給我們一段時間，到明年5月以前絕對可以提出行政院的版本，結果在野黨不肯，說這個會期非通過不可，結果通過這個東西，只有把收的部分劃走一大部分，支的部分都沒談。 |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.965 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2024-12-30T09:43:09.953000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2024-12-30T09:43:31.350000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
照現在的試算版，新北市可以增加375億，當然如果站在地方政府、站在地方民意代表的態度，越多越好，我從別的地方搶來，搶越多越好，像馬祖一個人的平均數可以三十幾萬最好，為什麼我們新北市只有兩萬六，為什麼差了十幾倍？ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.957 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2024-12-30T09:43:33.026000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2024-12-30T09:43:40.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
這個都是水平分配上面公式要去處理、要去弭平的事情，結果都沒有討論，沒有機會討論啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.946 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2024-12-30T09:43:41.914000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2024-12-30T09:44:25.968000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
不過站在國家總體發展的情況來看，你把中央政府的財政能力拿走之後，沒有辦法調劑盈虛，就是強者越強，臺北市越來越強，它越得越多、越來越好、越來越有錢；但是一些財政狀況比較困苦的縣市，事實上就沒有辦法有錢來處理一些問題，像我的出生地臺東、像澎湖縣、像中南部的這些農業縣市，或是說急需建設的一些過去重北輕南產生後遺症的這些縣市，就沒有辦法去克服嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.942 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2024-12-30T09:44:26.148000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2024-12-30T09:44:27.729000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2024-12-30T09:44:27.729000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2024-12-30T09:44:29.430000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
是，沒有錯，委員說的是。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2024-12-30T09:44:29.830000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2024-12-30T09:44:57.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
好，說這麼多之後再問一個問題，它現在給你調整，它現在給你這樣弄，要把你挖走三千七百多億了，如果114年的總預算，假設過這幾天或假設最好的狀況，這一個會期延到1月21號以前通過，或是沒有通過，明年開春2月1號再任之後，到了2月、3月來補通過，你的困難還是在，要如何解決？ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.918 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2024-12-30T09:44:57.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:06.133000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
像現在中央政府平均被挖走了百分之二十幾，每一個施政項目如何去調劑、如何去調配？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:06.954000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:10.755000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
這一部分主計長有什麼意見？ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:13.296000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:17.478000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
行政院目前正在研究相關因應措施，還是必須要等相關因應措施…… |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:17.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:21.240000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
我知道，你的相關因應措施就是覆議，最多就是提釋憲嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:22.793000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:28.417000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
假設最後這兩個沒有辦法通過時，114年預算你要如何執行？ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0.913 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:28.877000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:29.237000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
我現在是問這個問題啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:29.357000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:30.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
最壞的狀況來講的話，你要怎麼辦嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:34.803000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2024-12-30T09:45:45.611000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
坦白說，如果預算通過，我們其實是照案執行，但是如果將來必須面對可能有刪減的部分，像預算的籌編，其實每個計畫要討論是要花相當多的時間，而每個部會要減哪些計畫，還是必須逐一的討論。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
陳主計長淑姿 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2024-12-30T09:45:45.752000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:05.245000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
針對這個部分，它哪個計畫要保留，哪個計畫要刪減來討論，這個也相當耗費時間，所以有它的困難度存在，以上說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.957 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:05.405000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:07.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
所以意思是現在都還沒有討論好？還沒。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:07.307000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:10.148000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
你現在心裡也沒有答案？沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:10.348000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:12.790000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
現在這個攤子要如何解決啊？ |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:14.231000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:18.994000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
其實我是蠻同意有一些學者的看法，當然不是全部，就是這個案子不要副署，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.824 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:22.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:30.166000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
通過一個你們窒礙難行的，照理來講這樣憲政的體制應該國會的多數黨要發動倒閣嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.861 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:32.348000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:33.349000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
所以院長是不是不要副署？ |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.818 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:33.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:34.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
可不可以考慮不要副署？ |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:39.094000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:40.235000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
我建議是不要副署啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:40.736000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2024-12-30T09:46:43.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
如果以我對憲法的了解，不要副署當然很有爭議，那個爭議就把它提升到憲政結構，看看如何處理啊？ |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.439 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2024-12-30T09:46:43.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:04.948000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
你綁在這邊，你被拿走那麼多錢，但預算已經在這裡初步審查過了，馬上要二讀、要三讀了，結果跟現在通過的法律扞格，根本無法執行，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:04.948000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:26.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
所以其實以我的了解跟建議，我是希望不要副署，這樣當然就會衍生重大的憲政爭議，而這個憲政爭議如何處理，就讓憲法的學者、憲法的憲政機構之間來把這個問題凸顯出來。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.278 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:26.318000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:28.800000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
不然這個問題今年會遇到、明年也有可能遇到喔！ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:29.281000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:36.208000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
明年再給你提新的法案，雖然說不得為增加預算的提案，但它現在都用法律案硬要把你搞死啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.821 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
吳委員秉叡 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:38.070000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:54.522000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
今年這樣，明年它還可能再繼續搞你，所以希望能把我的話帶到，我建議行政院不要副署這個法案，衍生的憲政爭議，由憲法機構循憲政程序解決，這是我的意見，麻煩你們轉達，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:54.522000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:54.542000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
謝謝委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:55.042000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2024-12-30T09:47:57.613429+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
我們謝謝吳秉叡委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2024-12-30T09:47:57.913429+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2024-12-30T09:48:00.770571+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
接著我們請賴士葆委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0 |