| IVOD_ID |
158197 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158197 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第13次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第13次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-17T16:03:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-17T16:19:16+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:31 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711ce43bd00361ae5d95b05e405f736a88db93245063ea952ad97082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:03:45 - 16:19:16 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第13次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「勞動部前部長何佩珊及勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝宜容應受嚴厲之譴責，並移送監察院及檢調單位，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。」是否有當？請公決案等25案。（12月13日）二、同意權之行使事項：總統咨，依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗玲、黃東益、伊萬•納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。（12月17日上午）三、審計長列席報告中華民國112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案審核經過並備諮詢。（12月17日下午）） |
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SPEAKER_00 |
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921.79409375 |
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924.54471875 |
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SPEAKER_01 |
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922.01346875 |
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924.69659375 |
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SPEAKER_02 |
| transcript.pyannote[362].start |
924.54471875 |
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924.57846875 |
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SPEAKER_00 |
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924.57846875 |
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924.61221875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
7.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
13.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝韓院長主席以及各位先生有請沈記長麻煩再請陳沈記長大家午安好沈記長我看你今天情形不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
29.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
今天從開始到現在講一個大家關心的這個就業安定基金你說被不法使用有五千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
58.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
要追回請問你怎麼追回不是基金用途不合基金用途請問你怎麼追回因為我們會修正簡略不是不是簡略誰要負責這筆錢呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
79.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
因為他可能啊他有的時候我們來看這個事情啊修辦公室可能有的需要或者是做某一個事情需要我們整個我問的重點就是這筆錢是要叫這個勞動部賠把錢列掉還是叫許明春用的人賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
81.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
95.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這一個是這樣這一個因為我們會有的都會送檢查案有的會送檢調我們會看檢調檢查案最後的處理結果到底是要個人賠還是要單位賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
96.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
112.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這一個初步我們會先做簡略那就是單位賠嘛他放在那個就業安地基金的他不合他的用途我們簡略那你簡略我們要請目前在請會請勞動部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
116.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
142.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沈機長啊你這樣胡攏大車啊這筆錢等於還是政府出啊被不當使用還是政府出啊我們要一個東西就是他不當使用用的人要賠這個比較重要啊啊你還是政府賠就一樣啦左手右手這個政府那個政府等於都沒人賠啊要人賠誰使用誰不當使用那個人要賠你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
144.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
159.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個我們所有的要看財務責任是誰請問你同意嗎個人要賠你不當使用就要賠這一個因為賠不賠這一個要看整個整個損棄花線這個你說這個是他為他個人的當然是這個要我們就要剔除就要檢列 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
180.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
來 沈局長 你講一波 檢列的結果還是政府負責嘛所以等於是 等於是黑貓偷吃你殺白貓啊老百姓是白貓啊 啊這部會首長 這大官他有被用 結果你處罰也是處罰老百姓 這不公平啊 對不對 黑貓偷吃你打白貓變這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
193.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
對不對,所以你這個糊弄大家啊我剛剛看了一下新聞,歐外情勒歐外情勒,說這樣審計長要抓這個五千萬結果你仔細一看,都是假因為什麼?還是政府出還是政府出所以啊,你要追到說這個錢誰不當使用那個人要把口袋的錢拿出來賠,這樣才有keeping可以做得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
229.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這一個我們要看檢調還有看監察案整個調查結果因為我們沒有調查權你還是做不到來我問你一個東西啊要OLA SEBS |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
231.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
256.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
加拉丁美洲的吉加勒比海．最高的審計機關．我們國家106年．最後一次林慶榮．審計長．參加了．之後．沒有參加了．這麼重要的國際機構．拉丁美洲跟我們．很多的國家．跟我們有邦交國．而且明年又是巴拉圭．請問你要不要去．你要不要去． |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
279.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
報告委員這個因為去要有那個我們沒有參加上次前幾年是疫情所以大家就這一方面就停下來再來我們是去我們是發展到OECD歐美國家因為這個這個最高審計組織這個OnaSense這個是因為我們去了很多年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
311.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你不去?我們去了很多年了這幾年都沒有啊因為去了很多年了那邊的國家的損濟狀況損濟方法我們都了解了現在我是參加我們請我的同仁到去巴黎去那個歐美去美國去參加OECD的你自己不去嗎?請問你自己不去嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
312.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
321.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為這個還是由同仁阿 年輕的同仁阿來參加為什麼林青龍就去他審計長就去阿 阿代表你不重視喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
322.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
329.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們現在中華民國能夠走出去的國際組織已經不多了如果能夠讓我們走出去代表我們的國家能夠走出去這是何等重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
349.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
353.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
明年你要去聽說只不敢講而已我明年沒有要去都沒有要去確定沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
376.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
389.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我都沒有要去因為齁我認為年輕讓我們的年輕同仁阿出去的效益大於我沈記長出去沈記長不一樣阿你代表國家小看自己阿你是怕死喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
392.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
實際上這國際主持我們106年到現在都沒有參加了欸為什麼不去?當然要去啊而且去的話說不定可以用我們國號啊、立法會的簽啊或者台灣都可以用我們的名字去啊為什麼不可以?對不對這麼重要的結果我看你哈哈哈哈怎麼會這樣子呢?實際上光這一點啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
429.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我就讓我對你的尊敬就鑑定一半了這成績長這樣不行喔不行喔來我們就看你主要的你的第二預備金我把你統計都是用你資料喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
431.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
448.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一奧義備金都在9月底10月開始申請可能有什麼事情不夠了錢不夠了要申請一個第一奧義備金結果欸戰爭勞坑毛坑不拉屎欸要了一大堆錢不用來來來我們看喔從110年到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
451.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
461.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
最嚴重的是哪個單位：文化部的臺灣美術館：99.17%他要了100塊呀：99塊不用耶再來第二個單位：內政部預政署：99.6% 剩下的錢再來：法務部行政執政署： |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
471.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
489.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
省了96%再來行政院啊行政院今天做龍太鼓來啊行政院要一堆錢結果94%沒用再來主計總署喔要了一堆錢92%沒有用沈基昌你要查查看嗎你 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
490.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
491.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們要不要查?要不要查?會 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
518.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
542.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為這個我們的：謝謝委員：這個我們的：發現一年差不多有兩：動租完以後有兩三億就保留了每年都有兩三億了就是說這幾個單位啊第二預備金是救命的錢這幾個單位啊搶錢啦放在地上都沒用你看你看喔行政院卓榮泰帶頭對不對他上一屆不是卓榮泰啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
544.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
559.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
陳、陳、陳什麼的,陳建仁,帶頭做不好的示範啊,要了100塊,只用了不到6塊,對不對,剩94天多,你看,文化部,要了100塊,用不到1塊錢,用不到1塊錢,法務部也是這樣,要100塊,用了4塊,不到4塊錢, |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
567.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
586.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
內政部預證署要100塊不到1塊錢用不到1塊錢欸怎麼會有這樣的單位啊要錢要5塊口袋啊5錢啊反正你放那裡結果都沒用啊搶錢兩費啊阿用錢補費會更奇怪勒委員講得很好我們會要求行政院改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
614.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
要講行政院這行政院做得不好嗎行政院做得不好嗎對不對也不是說那個應該住住法律的住住啊就是說監衛動租第二批先第一條第一款就是監衛不服使用還動租了以後還保留這個這個現象不正常什麼時候可以完成調查跟糾正什麼時候一個月內 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
616.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
644.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
兩個禮拜可以啦 一個月那麼好啊因為 要我 現在啊 委員要我調查 要我審計的 非常的多啊所以喔 看看很重要很重要 聽我 來來來 你是管省局長管錢怎麼使用喔結果我們這幾年 政府都說 不可以給地方政府財化法喔 你們要錢喔 怎麼樣公告來給你們廢修署啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
645.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
646.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你看喔2021年﹐稅金剩餘2,979億 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
652.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
660.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
快要3000億喔2022年4993億快要5000億2023年2790億快要3000億可見這幾年我還查2020、2019每一年的稅金剩餘都是2500到5000億可見的什麼意思我都給你了封好了預算都通過了你中央之心不安把這個錢切下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
679.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
697.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
垂直分配給地方政府不是好歸好歸根本在什麼歐北亂共什麼哎呦不得了喔喔這個才挖挖一份的垂直分配中央沒有錢喔國王沒有錢喔這樣胡說八道中央每年剩的錢稅計剩餘就剩了2500到5000億之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
702.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
713.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以這些錢垂直分配給地方政府岸平好誰好誰岸平好誰好誰來沈機長我這樣的講話有沒有錯你告訴我有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
714.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
742.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
中央這幾年都有稅金剩餘但是地方我們查的地方112年度它的統計起來加起來也有560億的剩餘所以我們的財政在逐步改善中都會很好沒有回答我問題我問你說中央都這幾年來有2500億到5000億用不完用不完用不完那就給地方政府用 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
743.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
772.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
就給地方政府用啊才華娃就是這樣的概念本席提出來3000億給地方政府所以垂直分配中央給地方從這個表更能夠來強化It's about the timeIt's about the time中央你要allocation這些resources給我們的local government |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
773.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
784.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個很重要才化法要修錢在這裡錢在哪裡在這裡不是亂講一通什麼這個就沒有錢了國外沒有錢每年都剩了2500億到5000億你看2022年剩了快5000億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
790.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
803.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
錢用不完啦!錢用不完啦!所以才劃滑!垂直分配!中央給地方2500億到5000億!天經地義!天公地道!你說對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
806.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
827.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
財務要考量中央還有地方的財政狀況剛剛講中央現在不錯地方也不錯但是在劃分的時候錢和事務也要一起考量有時候一個龍水路的問題它會跑到中央來 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
828.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
843.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
沈記長我問你都紮紮實實的問題啊你回答我都是天馬行空啊都歐北這樣歐陵勢動啊勢戰勢戰不能這樣子啦沈記長最後一題啊我們來看喔政府的潛在負債啊你看多嚴重啊勞保12兆我還客氣的救治的軍工教3.2兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
854.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
881.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
公務人員退伏基金2.9兆公保700多億、軍保200多億、農保1.2兆1.2億、中央地方政府19.2兆中央都沒有錢了,哪裡有錢來補助臺電啊臺電2000億砍著啊,天經地義而且臺電的經濟部長啊還居然說什麼,ㄟ柏齊萬斤啊,我可以去借錢我可以借錢你是不是贊成2000億不要給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
883.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
909.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
他有幫他去借錢了他借很多錢了他說他去借錢了他已經借很多錢了他給他借再都不愁再都不借因為他大家都就是能源對國家相當重要大家以國家整體為念今天我問你因為我時間快到了是不是因為我們錯誤的人權政策讓我們台電虧損能力對吧這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
911.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
912.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
一個虧損啦,就已經錯綜複雜了,包括了... |
| gazette.lineno |
512 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（16時3分）謝謝韓院長。主席，以及各位先進，有請審計長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：賴委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
賴委員士葆：審計長，看你今天精神不錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：委員都給我鼓勵。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
賴委員士葆：看起來很有氣魄，你這把大刀砍得滿順的！ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這句話你從以前就講到現在。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
賴委員士葆：今天從開始到現在，講一個大家所關心的就業安定基金問題，你說被不法使用，有五千多萬要追回，請問你怎麼追回？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，因為不是基金用途，不合基金用途。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，所以請問你怎麼追回？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：我們會修正減列。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
賴委員士葆：不是減列的問題，而是誰要負責這筆錢？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為可能……有時候我們來看這件事情，修辦公室可能有需要，或者是做某一個事情需要，我們整個…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
賴委員士葆：不是啦！現在我問的重點是這一筆錢是要叫勞動部減列掉，還是叫使用的許銘春賠？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個是這樣，因為我們有的會送監察院，有的會送檢調，我們會看檢調、監察院最後的處理結果。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
賴委員士葆：你沒有回答問題啦！到底是要個人賠還是要單位賠？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個初步我們會先做減列…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
賴委員士葆：減列？那就是單位賠嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：放在就業安定基金的，不合用途，我們減列…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
賴委員士葆：你減列…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：到時候我們會請勞動部說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
賴委員士葆：審計長，你這樣是糊弄大家啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！不會啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
賴委員士葆：這筆錢等於還是政府出啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
賴委員士葆：被不當使用後還是政府出啊！我們要有一個東西，就是遭不當使用後，用的人要賠，這個比較重要啊！如果是政府賠，就像是左手、右手，這個政府、那個政府，等於都沒人賠啊！要人賠，誰使用、誰不當使用，那個人要賠，你同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們要看財務責任是誰的，再來做…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
賴委員士葆：請問你同意嗎？個人要賠，不當使用就要賠！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為賠不賠是要看整個…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
賴委員士葆：不然你怎麼追回？你等於沒有追回啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：……整個審計發現，你說這個是他個人的…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
賴委員士葆：你等於沒有追回嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：當然我們就要剔除、就要減列。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
賴委員士葆：來，審計長，你說了大半天，減列的結果還是政府負責嘛，所以等於是…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：未必！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
賴委員士葆：等於是黑貓偷吃，你殺白貓啊！老百姓是白貓，這些部會首長、這些大官胡亂使用，結果你處罰也是處罰老百姓，這不公平啊！對不對？黑貓偷吃，你打白貓，變成這樣了，所以你這個是糊弄大家啊！哇，我剛看了一下新聞，哇！好厲害！說審計長要抓這5,000萬，結果仔細一看，都是假的，因為還是政府出，還是政府出，所以你要追到這個錢是誰不當使用，那個人就要把口袋的錢拿出來賠，這樣才有氣魄，可以做得到嗎？可以做得到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們要看檢調，還有監察院的整個調查結果，因為我們沒有調查權。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
賴委員士葆：可以做得到嗎？你還是做不到啊！來，我問你一個東西，OLACEFS（拉丁美洲暨加勒比海最高審計機關組織），我們國家最後一次參加是106年林慶隆審計長去的，之後就沒有參加了，這麼重要的國際機構，拉丁美洲有很多國家跟我們有邦交，而且明年又是在巴拉圭舉辦，請問你要不要去？你要不要去？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，我們沒有參加，前幾年是因為疫情，所以大家在這方面就停下來…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
賴委員士葆：疫情過了好幾年了，疫情！你是在牽拖！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：再來，我們是發展到OECD、歐美國家，因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
賴委員士葆：那你要不要去？我問你要不要去？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個最高審計組織…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
賴委員士葆：OLACEFS。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：OLACEFS這個是屬於…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
賴委員士葆：你要不要去？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們去了很多年了。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
賴委員士葆：你要不要去？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：我們去了很多年了。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
賴委員士葆：這幾年都沒有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為去了很多年了，那一邊的國家的審計狀況、審計方法我們都瞭解了…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
賴委員士葆：喔，所以不去了？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：現在我是請我的同仁去巴黎、歐美、美國參加OECD的審計人員聯盟…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
賴委員士葆：你自己不去嗎？請問你自己不去嗎？請問你自己不去嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個還是由年輕的同仁來參加…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
賴委員士葆：為什麼？為什麼林慶隆就去？他當審計長就去啊，代表你不重視喔！我們好不容易…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：沒關係，每個審計長的作法都不一樣，如果作法都一樣，那就……每個人有每個人的作法。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
賴委員士葆：審計長，現在我們中華民國能夠走出去的國際組織已經不多了，OLACEFS這個組織如果能夠讓我們走出去，代表我們的國家能夠走出去，這是何等重要的事情啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
賴委員士葆：你身為審計長，應該代表國家走出去，去參加這樣的一個組織才對啊！我所聽到的是你…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員的鼓勵。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
賴委員士葆：我是聽說你明年要去，對不對？明年你要去嗎？聽說你要去。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：明年，欸…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
賴委員士葆：明年你要去，聽說，只是不敢講而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：我明年沒有要去，連OECD也都沒有要去。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
賴委員士葆：確定沒有喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：確定沒有，我都沒有要去，因為我認為讓我們年輕同仁出去的效益大於我審計長出去。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
賴委員士葆：審計長不一樣啊，你代表國家耶，你小看自己了，你是「怕死」喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：嘿嘿…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
賴委員士葆：「怕死」喔？不能這樣子，實際上這個國際組織我們自106年後到現在都沒有參加耶，為什麼不去？當然要去啊，而且去的話說不定可以用我們的國號啊，The Republic of China或者臺灣都可以，用我們的名字去啊，為什麼不可以？這麼重要的組織，結果我看你「憨憨」，怎麼會這樣子呢？審計長，光這一點就讓我對你的尊敬減低一半喔！審計長這樣不行喔！不行喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[69][1] |
來，我們再看你主要的，你的第二預備金，我做了統計，都是用你們的資料，第二預備金都在9月底、10月開始申請，可能有什麼事情錢不夠了，要申請第二預備金，結果是占著茅坑不拉屎，要了一大堆錢不用！來，我們看喔，從110年到112年的統計資料，最嚴重的是哪個單位啊？文化部的台灣美術館，保留比率99.47%，等於它要了100塊，有99塊不用耶！再來，第二個單位是內政部役政署，保留比率99.6%，再來是法務部行政執行署保留了96%，再來是行政院，行政院今天卓榮泰沒來，行政院要了一堆錢，結果94%沒用，再來是主計總處，要了一堆錢，結果92%沒有用。審計長，你要查看看嗎？這個是亂用大家的錢耶…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
賴委員士葆：聽我講完。審計等於是第二預備金啊，這個錢我要、那個錢我要，放在口袋裡熱乎乎的，結果都沒使用，怎麼會這個樣子呢？怎麼會這個樣子呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：依照預算法，動支第二預備金就是經費不敷…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊！他們去要錢耶…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：但是這經費還保留下來，顯然這個有問題，我們會給行政院注意到這個事情…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
賴委員士葆：你們要不要查？ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：會查。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
賴委員士葆：你們要不要糾正？ |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝委員，這個我們也發現到了，一年差不多動支完以後有2億、3億的保留，每年都有2億、3億的保留。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，都有保留，也就是說，第二預備金本來是救命的錢，但這幾個單位搶錢，但是卻放在口袋裡沒有使用。你看喔，行政院卓榮泰帶頭，對不對？上一屆不是卓榮泰啦，是陳建仁帶頭做不好的示範，要了100塊，使用不到6塊…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：動支第二預備金就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
賴委員士葆：保留了百分之九十四點多，文化部要了100塊，用不到1塊錢，用不到1塊錢！法務部也是這樣，要100塊，用不到4塊錢，內政部役政署要100塊，用不到1塊錢，怎麼會有這樣的單位啊！要錢要來放口袋啊，錢就放這裡、放哪裡，結果都不使用，搶錢很會啊，用錢不會，怎麼會這麼奇怪呢！要查！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：委員講得很好，我們會要求行政院改善。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
賴委員士葆：要叫行政院改善，這是行政院做得不好嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
賴委員士葆：行政院做得不好嘛，對不對？你不敢講不好…… |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：也不是，應該是說，在法律的制度，動支第二預備金的理由，第一條第一款就是經費不敷使用…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊！不夠錢了再用啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：但動支了以後還保留…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊，還保留，莫名其妙！ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：這個現象不正常。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以完成調查跟糾正？什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：一個月內。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜就可以了，還一個月，「你嘛好了」！ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為現在委員要我調查、要我審計的項目非常多，所以看看…… |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
賴委員士葆：那我們再看一個很重要很重要的題目，來，我們來看喔，你是審計長，是管錢怎麼使用的，結果我們看到這幾年，政府都說錢不可以給地方政府，說財劃法怎麼樣、你們要錢怎麼樣，說的好像要火燒房子了！好像快要火燒房子了！你看喔，2021年歲計賸餘2,979億，快要3,000億；2022年是4,993億，快要5,000億；2023年是2,790億，快要3,000億，可見得這幾年，我還往前查了2020年及2019年，每一年的歲計賸餘都是2,500億到5,000億，可見得什麼意思？我都給你，預算都通過了，你中央執行不完，把這個錢切下來垂直分配給地方政府，不是「好勢好勢」（恰到好處）？跟人家在什麼「烏白亂講」，什麼不得了喔，財劃法一部分的垂直分配，中央沒有錢了，國防部沒有錢了，你在胡說八道！中央每年歲計賸餘剩的錢就有2,500到5,000億之多，所以這些錢垂直分配給地方政府，不是「好勢好勢」？不是「好勢好勢」？來，審計長，我這樣的講法有沒有錯，你告訴我，有沒有錯？ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：中央這幾年都有歲計賸餘，這是確實，但是地方，我們查的結果，112年度地方的統計起來，加起來也有560億的賸餘，所以我們的財政在逐步改善中，都會很好。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，我問你說，中央這幾年來有2,500億到5,000億用不完、用不完、用不完，那就給地方政府用，就給地方政府用啊！財劃法就是這樣的概念，本席提出來3,000億給地方政府，所以垂直分配中央給地方，從這個表更能夠來強化It's about the time.It's about the time.中央要allocation這些resources給我們的local government，這個很重要。財劃法要修，錢在這裡；錢在哪裡？在這裡。不是亂講一通，什麼這個就沒有錢了，國防沒有錢，每年都剩了2,500億到5,000億，你看2022年剩了快5,000億，錢用不完啦！錢用不完啦！所以財劃法垂直分配中央給地方2,500億到5,000億天經地義、天公地道，你說對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：財劃法要考量中央還有地方的財政狀況，剛剛講中央現在不錯，地方也不錯…… |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，中央要省錢，地方要省錢…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：但是在劃分的時候，錢和事務也要一起考量，有時候一個農水路的問題，它會跑到中央來耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
賴委員士葆：審計長，我問你的都是扎扎實實的問題，你回答我的都是天馬行空，都「黑龍繞桌」，繞這繞那。 |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦，不會啦…… |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
賴委員士葆：不能這樣子啦！審計長啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：我們互動都有四、五年了，應該是…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
賴委員士葆：最後一題，我們來看政府的潛在負債，你看多嚴重，勞保12兆，我還客氣的，舊制的軍公教3.2兆，公務人員退撫基金3.9兆，公保七百多億，軍保兩百多億，農保1.2億，中央地方政府潛藏負債總計19.2兆，中央都沒有錢了，哪裡有錢來補助台電啦！撥補台電的2,000億砍了天經地義，而且主管台電的經濟部長還居然說什麼？沒有錢沒關係啦，我可以去借錢，我可以借錢！你是不是贊成2,000億不要給他，他有辦法去借錢，去給他借。 |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：他借很多錢了。 |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
賴委員士葆：他說他要去借錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：他已經借很多錢了。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
賴委員士葆：他要借讓他再借，債多不愁，債多不愁。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：因為能源對國家相當重要，大家要以國家整體為念。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
賴委員士葆：今天我問你，因為我時間快到了，是不是因為我們錯誤的能源政策讓台電虧損累累，這句話對嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：虧損的原因錯綜複雜，包括了是不是有不經濟支出…… |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
賴委員士葆：欸，你怎麼都不按照實際來回答呢？「黑龍繞桌」不可以這樣子啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：不會啦！不會啦！都跟你說實在的…… |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
賴委員士葆：便宜的核能不用，造成今天這麼大的虧損，不要給這個2,000億，很簡單。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝賴委員。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][1] |
報告院會，112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案之諮詢，已詢答完畢。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][2] |
我們非常感謝陳審計長及審計部所有列席的官員進行列席報告答詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][3] |
現在作以下之決定： |
| gazette.blocks[117][4] |
一、「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」案，交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][5] |
二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面諮詢函送審計部，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][6] |
三、已提出之書面諮詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。 |
| gazette.blocks[117][7] |
繼續處理復議案。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
432 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-13 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
396 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-12-17 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1140104 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1140104_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經
過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1140104_00002 |