| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f7e4b646118ff6a1e9797fe389adeea2c691fc1ddc136966182c18c738e1db165e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王育敏 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:10:04 - 13:23:26 |
| 影片長度 |
802 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【業務報告及專題報告綜合詢答】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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歡迎委員質詢好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長?委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
18.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
37.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
部長好,剛剛這個提案討論的時候大家花了很多時間在討論你們今天提出的這份報告主要是你們精簡的太厲害了你們剛剛說你們有幾十頁的報告結果今天送出來的就是六頁那這六頁當中其實都看不出這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
39.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
56.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
也看不了事實只有你們的結論所以當然外界對於這樣的一份報告就是高度的存疑不知道你們到底是怎麼去調查的嗎我現在以下就要問你們你們這整個的調查過程第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
86.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
你們總共請了四位外部委員但是你要調查八個案子請問你們每一個案子花多少時間去訪談每一個人員訪談的時間有多久來請回答好我請那個周基仁處長處長誰要回答這邊跟那個委員報告願意受訪的同仁每個人至少15分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
115.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
才15分鐘至少15分鐘至少15分鐘有幾位平均每個人下來都有10個人次因為8個案子吧96人還是人次人人次所以總共訪談幾位總共訪談96位96位這不是人次嗎對96人嘛對一個人15分鐘至少15分鐘那最多呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
最多不好意思因為我最多其實我們都盡量讓他們講啦應該是大概15到30分鐘啦而且還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
135.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
委員是不是允許我先這樣做那個報告到時候到您那個辦公室的時候都會都會有一些相關的資料給您看謝謝我會問這個問題就是我要知道衛福部是不是認真確實的調查因為調查的過程非常的重要從今天六月的報告大家都看不到到底發生什麼事情所以那個調查的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
161.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
187.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你有沒有足夠的時間去做讓這個當事人可以做足夠的反應其實這個是非常的關鍵所以因為這個報告大家都看不到事實所以大家才會有這麼多的一個疑問另外一個是你八案當中只有三案成立五案沒有成立報告當中也沒有去宰明不成立的原因為何所以你這份報告坦白講簡化成這樣子難怪委員這麼不滿意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
196.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為打不殺殺看到你這個只有懲處但根本發生什麼事情大家還是完全得不到資訊啊那你們剛剛說是要保護這一些申訴者這個我當然贊成因為他們是受害者他們今天好不容易鼓起勇氣出來檢舉了但是他為什麼要出來檢舉因為忍無可忍而檢舉之後他要的是一個什麼是一個公平正義是希望衛福部還他一個公道 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
219.12 |
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233.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
讓他以後可以安心在這個職場不要受到長官不當的要求跟對待甚至是霸凌所以如果你的調查報告沒有還給當事人一個應有的公道的話以後會造成什麼?寒產效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
234.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就是申訴了也沒有用啊今天花那麼大的力氣輿論討論這麼久結果我去申訴了這當中這五案我特別關切的是這五案為什麼不成立坦白講申訴要很大的勇氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
250.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
270.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但是如果用這麼大的勇氣然後也訪談了然後也講了結果最後你就告訴當事人說不成立你知道那個會有多挫折過去我也在地方服務過我處理過這個性騷擾相關的案件你知道那個有的當事人當他被宣告他性騷擾不成立的時候他憂鬱症的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為他覺得我都這麼鼓起勇氣跟你政府單位申訴結果調查人調查完之後說不成立簡簡單單說不成立三個字他就要痛苦一輩子所以我要提醒部長的事提醒次長的事我們是應該要站在這一些申訴者這一方當今天他是長期的被欺壓跟壓迫之後才反映出這個事情的時候我贊成你剛剛講的勿往勿縱 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
323.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
但是請你更站在一個每一個鼓起勇氣已經要跟你們投訴的這些人的立場想一想他今天是鼓起多大的勇氣才敢講這件事就像你們剛剛說你們是要保護他這個我贊成因為他是鼓起很大的勇氣但如果你的結果是讓他極度失望的話你要知道那個後座力有多強沒有憂鬱症的可能會變有憂鬱症 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
327.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
345.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為他覺得無望了他都花那麼大的力氣去爭取了結果是被打回票請問兩位你們有掌握這五案不成立的理由你們覺得真的是充分嗎這些調查委員的調查真的夠仔細嗎我要你們特別關注的是不成案的這五個案子你們每一個都有仔細的了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
351.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
總召還有報告委員我想分兩點來說明報告委員其實我之前我在台中也當過社會局長您剛剛所說的像性侵害、性騷擾等等這些基本上也是我的業務範圍相關的這個報告其實就像您所說的其實如果沒有成立的話對於這個提起的人就基本上這事實上都是另外一個打擊所以我們確實也都是抱持同樣的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
同時也要利用這個機會就是要還給被相對的人一個應有的公道來建立我們的這個資產環境這是第一個重點第二個重點我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛也已經有一個決議就是說我們到時候會將報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
帶到委員的辦公室讓委員來親自審閱那我想這個部分等到看完之後其實這裡面其實都有這一個調查委員在整個過程裡面他的調查還有就是說為什麼不成立了一個相關的一個理由這個其實報告報告書裡面也都有一個非常具體的市長我要問你的是你作為召集人你都認同嗎這五個案子你有仔細的去了解過嗎報告委員這五個案子我都有我都有詳細的詳細的去了解我可以作證我也可以保證 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
439.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以你可以背書說這五個案子沒有冤枉不是霸凌案沒錯你會背書我會背書好那我們就等著看你們的這個內容是什麼因為我真的要提醒你們天秤的兩端不要傾斜是的當然那這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
440.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
463.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
今天會站出來的我覺得他是因為他受到了冤屈也受到了壓迫他才會站出來沒錯所以我們的調查過程一定是要非常的公平那最後一個問題就是說有關於時間的部分因為我們調查人數非常眾多那還有時間也非常非常緊我們必須要在這個社會的期待所以到底有沒有調查完整有報告委員我們調查完整我跟委員報告離職的轉調的都有約訪嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
468.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
短調的呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
488.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
501.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
符合真相沒有掩蓋也沒有偏袒這樣的一個調查報告才能讓大家信服所以你們後續提供這個完整調查報告我們會仔細再來看另外一個你們這一次的霸凌案的處置不如勞動部的2.0版你們看起來你們那個標準其實是不一致的在勞動部裡面強迫跑步是霸凌你們強迫深蹲間報告不是霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
517.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
522.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
然後用言語去叫人家親生的這個這個只有深屆兩隻那長照的這個強迫運動的是小過一隻我就不知道你們這個懲戒的標準是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
543.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們最終做出這個懲戒是由什麼樣的單位做出來的?是人事單位嗎?不是,報告委員,其實誠如我剛剛所說就是說我們在這裡面這也是調查委員?不可能吧?報告委員,這就是調查委員你調查委員有是熟悉公務體系啊?你不是說是專家學者嗎?外部的專家學者怎麼來告訴你,你那個懲處的那個範圍?報告委員,我們在這裡面所以要你們自己有意見啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
558.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
568.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個委員他們基本上整個調查程序裡面都有按照他的所收集的主客觀的資料還有訪談的資料之後然後做出一個整個做出一個裁決﹖稱處怎麼會是委員來建議呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
572.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
579.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他們是調查報告出來之後然後經過兩道程序第一個就是由我親自主持跟所有專家這邊我們經過詳細的討論之後然後做出了一個整個這一個相關的決議這是第一個重點第二個決議完之後還要送我們的安全防護衛生小組來做審議 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
591.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
608.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
要記小過要記深切要不要大過要不要降調這個怎麼會是屬於外部專家委員的職權他們是建議完之後經過我剛剛說的安全衛生小組最後考機會那你們沒有看到你們這一個懲處的標準是不一嗎因為它的情節輕重不一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
613.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以你說教人家輕聲的這一種言語的不當是比較輕的然後深蹲是比較重的我們經過調查裡面已經有說就是說這一個他所謂的所謂的所謂的輕聲等等是指 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
625.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
644.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
市長有我提醒你齁如果言語會去霸凌別人的人這個是有他性格上面的問題不會是只有一次也不會是單一事件而剛剛已經有委員具體的指出來在他擔任組長期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
646.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
666.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
也有同樣的一個情況那會不會所以我就懷疑你們問的對象到底是誰嗎如果說他只是突然冒出口一個人不會這樣子他不會突然蹦出這樣的話那麼嚴厲的叫人家輕聲這樣的話那是跟他原來的性格某一個部分是有關係的所以你們真的是有鉅細靡遺的去訪談嗎就像我們看到勞動部的謝義勇 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
672.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
699.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他就是藏起來就是這個樣子啊他不會突然這樣直接講一句話去霸凌別人沒有這件事情他大概他的風格就會是這個樣子所以謝用一開始也說無姓員工跟他完全沒有關係他說完全沒有關係還要請律師發聲明稿結果勞動部第二次部長下令要嚴審調查之後翻轉了而且是大逆轉有關因為是從工作上面的壓迫一直下來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
702.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
728.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我要提醒部長跟次長就是說在處理這件事情你們一定是要放開你心中的包袱一定當然我知道衛福部裡面很多一級主管大家都很辛苦這是一回事但是如果他在過程當中他有不當的管理壓迫甚至是霸凌然後讓底下的員工更辛苦這他就不適合這個主管他也不適合主管是要帶領的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
729.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
752.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
不是去壓迫下面的員工的所以你這個一定是要切割開來處理但是我看到你們現在的懲處內容你們就沒有一致的標準你們的輕重坦白講是沒有一致的標準跟勞動部的比起來你們是比較輕你們是輕輕放下這個我不知道是什麼樣的原因但是我覺得應該要處理最後我提醒不只是你們公部門的這個霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
754.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
762.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
還有醫院的霸凌也層出不窮我具體一個建議醫院的這個部分也是一定要處理醫護人員其實也都是非常辛苦這個他們醫師公會已經這個要求就是霸凌的申訴機制要納為這個評鑑的項目部長你應該表態這件事情你贊成還是反對我同意同意同意同意嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
776.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
799.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那我希望這個醫院的體制裡面也不應該有這樣的一個情況之前我們看到有護理師遭到霸凌自殘這個也是不應該發生的事情所以未來應該建立一個機制然後讓我們的醫護人員都在一個健康的環境不被霸凌欺壓的環境可以安心的這個為國人的健康來努力好不好一定一定朝這個方面全力來努力好謝謝謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
158178 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158178 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-14 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-16T13:10:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-16T13:23:26+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |