| video_url |
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| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:19:30 - 11:28:31 |
| 影片長度 |
541 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查「公職人員選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。） |
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謝謝主席這個中選會主委有請請李主委 |
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41.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
主委辛苦了今天很多委員要質詢可能比較辛苦一點但沒有關係大家隨便討論昨天最新的淨新聞的政經情勢民調指出選罷法的修法在今天要討論的其中一個條文也就是說同意罷免人數要大於罷免人的當選票數46.3%的民眾黨贊同修法方向是高於不贊同的比例過去民眾黨公布的有63.9%同意加嚴選罷法的連署過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
62.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
在加嚴連署過程的前提條件之下還要再提高這個相關的就是同意票要大於這個罷免同意票要大於當初的當選票數也都還是有51.4%的人同意那再早一點新國會智庫公布的是58.9%的民眾不認同現行25%的罷免門檻這個認為罷免同意票要超過當選票數的是56.6%認為發動大罷免不利國家安定的有將近70%請問從中選會的角度如何回應這樣子的一些民意 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
74.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
102.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
若干的這個民意調查資料我們都看到了我們也都會做參考那關於相關的修正案中選會所持的理由也在歷次的這個討論當中我們有充分的表達委員如果有什麼指教的話我們也很願意在這個機會來向委員做說明就民意論民意啦基本上現在看起來多數民意是有支持這樣子法條的修正你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
103.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
106.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
有別的數據或資料可以證明說並不是多數民意?我對於這些問卷的設計並不是很清楚但是不管怎麼樣你這些民意調查我們都會作為參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
118.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
146.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
剛剛很多報案行政單位的立場基本上我們每次修法的時候行政單位大部分的立場都很保守都說在未有充分的共識之前不宜隨意推動 對不對但是主委為什麼我們今天立法院要有所謂的表決的機制為什麼我們要有所謂的黨團協商為什麼要有所謂委員會討論不就是在試圖擱置爭議或者是行訴共識嗎 對不對如果真的不能如果真的在很多的法案上沒有辦法達成共識的時候在民主的這樣子一個大的遊戲規則下面有沒有解決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
146.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
163.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們作為法律的主管機關以及執行機關也有責任必須要在修法的時候把我們的立場要說明清楚我們說明的這個內容也希望能夠得到委員的支持就沒有共識不構成不修法的理由啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
164.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為沒有共識的題目多討論也許出現共識如果真的在大部分的討論情況下最終還是各執一詞的時候也有所謂的民主的表決的機制嘛這主委你至少不會否定這樣的說法對不對我們尊重立法院所進行的程序尊重立法院所進行的程序謝謝好你剛剛在回答前面委員答詢的時候你有講說民意起起落落啊這個用什麼過去的民意跟現在的民意來這個沒有辦法及時的來反映我想問主委一個概念罷免應不應該是常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
190.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
214.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
就是我們在做代議政治的推動代議政治這樣子的一個過程中罷免應不應該是常態我想至少從憲法的規定把它規定在一起選舉、罷免、創制、複決這是權利對不對這是公民權我完全同意這是權利規定在憲法裡面它就是一個常態但是它是權利但它不應該是常態它如果是常態的話那我們是不是應該定期罷免公民權的常態公民權的常態 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
215.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
216.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
236.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
258.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以罷免如果符合法律的規定的話也應該算是一種常態雖然它不是一個定期的它不是一個定期的那它怎麼會是常態呢對不對所以罷免是一個公民行使的緊急權利嘛也就是說當民意代表也好機關首長也好天路人員的時候人民可以站起來用他法律憲法所賦予他的權利來進行一個推翻所以這一點非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是選民對於當選人的支持已經有懷疑了已經有不同的意見了我們今天修正這個法律有沒有剝奪這樣權利其實沒有對不對我們只是訴求在過程中嚴謹中有更多的討論而且要符合最新的民意脈動站在我們的立場我們認為是加嚴了1994年也就是在降成25%之前的版本是什麼一半吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： 公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案： |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
投票但是得票率得票率必須要得票必須要超過是要超過但有沒有像過去的版本一樣硬性規定投票率是沒有但是相對是有以前在硬性規定投票率的時候只要投票率不達標這條報名案就不成立所以大家會用冷處理的方式迴避民意那現在這樣的修法有沒有有沒有這樣的狀況不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
339.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為你到最後還是要面對啊!因為很有可能你不處理的時候反對的警察人數你就輸了嘛!對不對?那我再問一個問題我們用實際的數字來計算以桃園第一選區為例好了本期當選的票數11萬6千票左右當選票數48%但選區總人口數是33萬9也就是說我們的當選票數其實佔總人口的總人口數其實大概是3乘5左右大部分今天在座的區域民意代表大概都是這樣自己算一算就知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
340.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
355.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以當選票數加一也並不是回到2016修正之前的超高門檻而是在1994年的那個超高門檻跟2016年顯然大家現在認為有一點太低有可能讓罷免騷擾變成常態的情況下中間求取的平衡吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
356.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
357.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不管是35%、40%或是10萬票、20萬票在投票選舉的時候的這個數據它並不是不動的它並不是不會改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
371.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
尤其是這個支持支持度經過一年半到你講民意可能會變變化對對對人事這就是為什麼我一開始要問你罷免應不應該是常態的原因嘛罷免是突發嘛他不是常態常態叫選舉嘛為什麼我們要規定四年一次就是避免這個任期太長結果這個民意代表或者是機關首長背離民心你本來就一個選舉的機制放在那個地方去做汰換罷免是因應特殊狀況的時候他才有這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
399.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
425.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以你如果特殊狀況的門檻低於常態的門檻,這是很奇怪的一件事情,對不對?主委我這樣講沒有錯吧?你把它用這個常態,罷免變成常態,可能大家對於這個用詞的理解不是一樣。這個我不否認,但是事實上現在的狀況是不是就是這樣?可能會影響到對於罷免相關制度的一個判斷,所以我不願意用是否常態,我只願意用如果符合相關規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
427.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
其實今天如果沒有這樣子的所謂的大罷免或是連續發動或是什麼的話大家今天搞不好也不會討論選罷法我們就把話破到底去講但是實務上來講報告委員那這個我認為在修法的背景上動機上就有一些問題了是因為有特殊的控制形式所以我一定要問你不去檢討彼此之間的攻防而是直接的要去動他基本的這個選舉罷免的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
454.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我今天要跟你去談為什麼罷免不應該變成常態的時候原因就在這個地方嘛它本來就不應該是一個被這個權力的行使我們都支持但這個權力不應該拿來變成互相攻擊跟鬥爭的工具啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
469.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
484.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
難道不是這樣嗎?就是對於罷免是不是有所謂的大罷免草你罷免我我罷免你為了防止這種情形所以我來修改選罷法這一點我認為是不好的啦我總結一下因為時間已經到了第一個現在的民意以最近幾次的民意調查來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
486.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
515.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
同意的是多於不同意的這是民意的反應我們除了在選舉的時候反應民意之外隨時實施的民意脈動就是代議政治要處理如果這個民意已經有一定的支持度跟水準的話你本來就應該要做出討論第二選舉才是代議政治的常態罷免是特殊狀況如果真的天怒人怨剛剛很多人都講說這以後就不可能成功不會啊雖然我們這對藍軍來講是很難過的事不過韓院長當初被罷免的票數他就超過了當選票數所以他並不會因為這樣制度的修正就表示到完全不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
527.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
二、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計三、審查委員楊曜等二十九條及第六十 |
| IVOD_ID |
157881 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157881 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-15-14 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-05T11:19:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-05T11:28:31+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |