| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177ad46bf20abc4eb517083858d4ffa05d76e54b9bd157483afab7349d8067d4e87d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:57:54 - 10:08:58 |
| 影片長度 |
664 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、文化部、內政部警政署、大陸委員會報告「從『國有器官』在台播映困境看中國對台灣的長臂管轄策略，及我國的因應方案」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.65 |
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25.11 |
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謝謝主席麻煩國安局副局長國安局張副局長我也好副局長我跟各位列席的官員我們在討論這個議題之前可能要把一些概念先釐清清楚第一個所謂用非法的手段長臂管轄去傷害我國主權侵害我們司法管轄權 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
通常指的是政治類的案件以及使用的是非法的手段跟一般的刑事犯罪洗錢、詐欺、金融犯罪的司法互助這兩個是不一樣的東西我覺得概念要先講清楚否則我們跟很多國家有在合作不管是國際防堵詐欺犯、人蛇集團那個都要跨國大家來合作那是司法機關基於互助 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
各自的司法主權去協助彼此阻卻刑事犯罪跟阻卻言論傷害民運人士或者政治類的案件然後透過非法的手段這兩個是不一樣的如果把它混為一談形塑好像大家都在幹這個事情的話我覺得這個會把焦點整個模糊掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
99.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第一個我們來看中國在海外曾經兩度我判斷這個專案還在你有聽過這個Foxhunting獵狐專案有沒有聽過有聽過獵狐2014專項行動這是中共的國安部跟他們的公安局進行的根據獵狐後來才有所謂的海外公安海外警察等等的配屬的作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
126.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那在中國公安部他有一個912專項工作小組他負責的是監控在海外的中國人監控在海外的重要的政治人物包含他國甚至於誘捕、威逼甚至還有一些自殺案件這個狀況不管是誘捕、監控或恐嚇請問一下國安局目前台灣有沒有類似的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
127.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
137.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
他也許不敢明目瞻仗用所謂的海外公安、海外警察或者在台灣執行什麼樣的專案你們目前有沒有看到類似的樣態在台灣發生過?包委員,我們有關注他有試圖在我們國內發展組織但是還沒有看到有這種類似剛剛委員所提的這種現象恐嚇的情形有沒有?還沒有有啊,我待會舉例子給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
156.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
164.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
只是他不是像海外是用公安人員啊你看今天美國發布一個新聞這是美國公民喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
166.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
191.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個美國公民直接接受中國國安部委託去監控在中國海外的異議人士、民運人士、法輪功成員等等那美國逮捕他之後以他沒有因為美國有代理人法沒有去登記通報自己成為外國政府的代理人最高可以判處15年徒刑他現在一審被判4年有期徒刑你們知道這個案子嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
220.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以他不僅僅會運用他自己的海外公安他有時候會運用在他國的公民來進行所謂的監控所以我再問一次在台灣有沒有類似獵狐專案專項行動然後對我們在台灣的民運人士香港異議人士在台灣我們應該保護的嫁來台灣的中國新娘嫁來台灣是我們國人喔被恐嚇、被監控、被誘捕有沒有類似的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
240.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
目前我們觀察到是會透過一些協力者在台做滋擾的行為在台灣是有滋擾行為嗎?然後我們在海外的我國的公民有沒有被獵狐專項行動或者相關的海外公安部進行監控過?你們有沒有掌握這個情形? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
247.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
261.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我們知道就是目前我們掌握是有這種現象尤其在那個他們會運用其實中共在外面的人員他有肩負這種監控跟治療的一個這個我問過僑委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
279.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們在國外的我國的僑民事實上有被他們海外公安或類似的手段監控或騷擾過甚至於上一次貴局的局長前任局長去泰國進關的時候那個影像被拿出來那個其實都是類似的樣態所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
282.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
302.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們今天談國有器官這部電影它不僅是一部電影這部電影的內容不是我要討論的重點一部電影要不要去看一個紀錄片你要不要去看那是人的選擇但是如果中國透過恐嚇的方式讓我們自我審查讓我們自我審查不敢播 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不敢讓他上映這個時候他就達到實質的效果我們得在鼓勵他繼續用這種恐嚇的方式這一次是一齣電影下一次呢一場選舉呢下一次一場民主活動呢如果他可以用恐嚇的方式讓我們正常的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
347.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
沒辦法正常進行的時候 這個時候我們相關的單位就有責任我們看 所謂的介入其實很多種像這個是一個判例嘛 收受中國7400萬的資金然後介入台灣選舉 這個是統促黨的幹部張孟崇那統促黨也被內政部申請解散了那另外呢 寄送所謂的恐嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
348.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我看國安局寫的是28案那剛才警政署說是30案因為我們時間是到11月22號所以22號就多兩案出來到26號那這恐嚇除了電影院以外我看到有高雄市議會、彰化縣議會也被恐嚇嘛那還有沒有其他公署剛才文化部也講文化部也被恐嚇了還有沒有其他的公家機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
372.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們的資料是有,但那個委員會因為手邊沒有在手上我看一下還有其他公家機關嗎?像彰化縣議彰化縣議會高雄市議會然後文化部剛剛提的還有就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
398.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
421.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
行事局等下要查辦的行事局他也是恐嚇對象桃園市還有台北市的影城這一些被恐嚇的對象我相信行事局不會因為被恐嚇就停止偵辦但是一般的人民團體、公司、行號、組織可能會因為被恐嚇他就 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他為了保護自己也不為過但原來正常的活動就被限縮了我們看曾經發生過的像黃之鋒來台灣的時候從下機場的第一天就被監控監控人是大喇喇的兩人一組然後甚至於還要去毆打 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
442.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
465.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
另外你再看這個是香港的歌手何韻詩直接在凱道上面被撥紅漆執行的都是特定幫派特定政黨人士還有啊像深淵反送中的餐廳被撥廢物啊還有啊這個港人在西門町舉辦這個對中國國慶的不同意見的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
470.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
499.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
中國用中國旅客後來查出來他的路徑的理由根本不符合去現場嗆聲啊這一種東西都屬於很多樣態我會要求國安局你要把這些樣態分類然後去對照一些在國際上發生的事項如果這些樣態有現有法律可以去執行賀祖你要去執行如果法律有不足的話你們要提出修法的建議所以我最後要請這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
501.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
525.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
文化部跟這個警政署一起上來透過非法手段侵害我國主權傷害我國的司法管轄權影響我們正常的活動甚至於民主活動去威脅去影響去嚇阻一般人民公私行號社團組織媒體的正常活動這是我們不容忍的我相信各位都點頭都說對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
527.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
551.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那現在像以國有器官這齣電影我再強調一次這個紀錄片大家對它評價如何要不要去看我沒有意見那是人的自由選擇有人要看有人不看自由選擇可是當它上映卻因為恐嚇事件它的上映方式被扭曲改變了連高雄市議會彰化縣議會說要播也被恐嚇了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
553.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
582.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們如果讓這種方式達成效果甚至於形成剛才羅美玲委員講的自我審查以前我們講說心中小警種現在變心中有小公安欸就不敢動的話我國就被實質的傷害影響所以國安局跟文化部跟警政署有沒有辦法確保至少要有一家這樣子的放映的院線願意正常進行而我們又能確保他的安全有沒有辦法這樣做 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
585.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
613.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
報委員我先跟委員報告等一下那個我待會請文化部簡單的好這個部分確實是我們國安團隊的責任這要確保我們國人的安全放心不要像這種恐嚇案件造成現在都不播啦因為被恐嚇都不播啦所以我們國安團隊會持續的掌收這樣的一個恐嚇的情訊也有警調機關會進行查處跟巡檢確保這樣的一個安全適時的揭露這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
613.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
639.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你確保安全之後,他還是不播啊?文化部,我們能不能不被這種訊息去傷害?哪怕播了沒有人要買票看,那是市場機制自動下線啊?根文報,目前正常上映的戲院還有6家,其他所謂的提早下檔,其實是改為包場的方式,所以他其實都還是看得到。他改為包場,他比較能夠控制現場的安全,那但是6家都還是正常上映。警政署,我們可以確保這些播放院線的安全嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
641.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
662.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當然沒有問題如果說有情資進來或是事先的預防我們都可以做票房不好下線OK啦好萊塢電影票房不好也該下線但不能因為被這種恐嚇而被提早下線這是不對的我們要保護正常活動的安全不被這種境外這樣的訊息傷害好不好請各位加油謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
157472 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157472 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-18 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-27T09:57:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-27T10:08:58+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |