| IVOD_ID |
157461 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157461 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-27T09:38:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-27T09:47:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4b9db3dc7042177a9e98ab809cc0430b9efc61e85f95edfbf8386334ca12ce897676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:38:34 - 09:47:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-27T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案。（詢答及處理）
【預算提案截止時間：11月26日（二）中午12時】） |
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主席 各位先進 有請經濟部的連次長以及臺電的曾董事長以及組織總署的陳組織長三位長官好 我的題目因為不知道為了誰 因為三個都有關係 |
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我在經濟委員會那時候曾董事長也在我問了郭部長說啊這個追加預算追加一千億如果沒有給的話會怎麼樣郭部長姿態非常高眼睛看著天花板啊就簡單啊我就舉債啊他就舉債兩個字啊舉債 |
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59.115 |
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主席賴士葆 |
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69.639 |
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有錯了請指教喔!長短期的借款1.6兆、1.5多兆對吧?1.5幾?1.5幾嗎?將近我就想去掉1.6兆左右還有9千億左右的其他借款對吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
87.981 |
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總負債2.5兆當然利息9000億不用利息是1.6兆的利息每人利息224億我就說過了你們的負債1.6兆利息224億所以你們的利率大概1.多%對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.873 |
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130.116 |
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對嗎?1.6%很少啊!現在要賺1.6%啊!現在青菜都賺2%以上啊!1.6%這樣財政部的部長都可以講話了啊!對不對?你們利率有多少?2%起跳對不對?部長啊?啊?部長講一下好不好?部長!來,莊部長!部長,部長,來來來,請接部長!利率多少?平均利率? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
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156.189 |
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臺電有多少啊?多少?多少?不知道10年期的公債大概1.5左右1.5啊?你們真的不到1.5啊?你看有多少啊?對不對?臺電因為我們叫臺電啦,台灣人啊所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
160.633 |
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180.885 |
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沒有增加一千億無傷啊!你就增加一千億就增加多少?增加兩百二十幾億而已啊!增加二十幾億的利息啊!你就有了啊!所以你看這個郭樹暉只太子瀟灑只傲慢啊!對著天花板!你不要看立委對著天花板說啊!救急啦!就簡單救急! |
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182.026 |
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205.628 |
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我看那個曾部長﹖其實我都覺得我聽你叫去的﹖張文燊應該當部長的﹖你當部長比關世威好太多了﹖太了解多了﹖對不對﹖誰想不到是怎樣﹖你也是﹖你也不錯啊﹖你也夠力啊﹖為什麼沒有當上部長啊﹖你來就不要講啊﹖那天你在場對不對﹖對嘛﹖他要講﹖要舉在對嘛﹖ |
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206.772 |
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207.653 |
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臺電只能舉債﹖只能舉債不是﹖ |
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226.627 |
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246.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這句話本來我對臺電是無限的不要說同情臺電這麼大的公司賴士葆小立委何德何能要同情臺電啊臺電的窟窿這麼多我本來都中間平向於說不定要支持一下結果郭師傅講這句話對不起我的態度很清楚我反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
248.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
260.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我反對因為一千億利息只有二十億多一點點你沒負擔得起沒有必要這一千億留給民間為什麼來聽好喔幾位黨官看好這個數字喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
262.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
270.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
最近11年來這是你們的數字,台砲啊,資料來源都是台砲啊,台電的。這從2016到2023年,總共核電幫你們賺了2397億,將近2400億。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
281.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那你們今年虧了360億在去年2023年還賺了294億因為有核電所以有核電幫你們賺錢老實講今天要跟人家伸手要錢你今天一個孩子跟父親要錢不管父親有沒有錢你一定跟他說我已經軟狼修舍我窮其一地一切我盡我一切努力cost down |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我真的沒有錢了我需要父母給我錢這個我們會考慮當然不是說立法院是父母啦但人民是父母立法院代表人民對不對你們沒有窮其一切啊你們把這個核電11年來賺2400億的把它拿掉了take it for granted到國理所當然的一定不要所以要繼續虧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
362.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以再加這一點一千億我強烈反對給你們這個增值一千億我剛說過了國務部長講的可以舉債舉債一年利息只不過20出頭億你一年的虧損到360億多虧了20億算什麼而且這個錢來人簡單為什麼要把老百姓拿了一千億出來而且恐嚇 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
364.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
說不給一千億要漲電價會漲電價嗎?請問會不會?董事長會不會?會不會漲電價?電價不是台電公司決定是電價委員會決定那這樣的意思我的解讀就是不管有沒有增資一千億都是電價這個委員會決定他即便給你一千億他要漲還是漲這就對吧對吧請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
394.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以換一句話說,也沒有給你增值一千億,跟漲變價是沒有關係的! |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
415.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
442.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
國務部長胡說八道說給我1000億不可以提高電價不是這樣子因為我們為了要穩定民生物價還有那個CPI所以要反映成本是沒錯可是對於民生用電這一塊我再強調一遍你不要跟我講之前的東西我讓大家全國的老百姓聽清楚今天有沒有給你1000億對台電差別在20億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
443.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
455.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就這樣子,對不對?在21之一左右（而且便叫審議委員會（不會看你有沒有爭執意見力（該漲就漲（不該漲就不漲（就這麼簡單的邏輯（來,你講,鄭董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
459.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
471.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個報告委員喔今年就我知道電價審查的時候也有把政府補貼的因素考慮進去他是考慮整體財務如果我們得到補貼我相信電價委員會也會一併考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
474.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
賴士葆 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
494.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
賴士葆 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
516.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
謝謝司法委員接著請郭國文委員質詢 |
| gazette.lineno |
176 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（9時38分）謝謝主席、各位先進。有請經濟部的連次長，以及台電曾董事長以及主計總處陳主計長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，連次長、曾董事長、陳主計長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
連次長錦漳：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
賴委員士葆：三位長官好。我的題目，因為我不知道問誰，因為三個都有關係，我在經濟委員會，那時候曾董事長也在，我問了郭部長說追加預算1,000億，如果沒有給的話會怎麼樣？郭部長姿態非常高，眼睛看著天花板說「很簡單，我就舉債」，他說「舉債」兩個字就解決了，言下之意，他大老闆1,000億沒有看在眼裡，舉債！好了，我就回去做功課了，舉債喔！三位長官聽好，有錯請指教，長短期的借款1.6兆、一點五多兆，對吧？曾董事長對吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
曾董事長文生：1.57，對。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
連次長錦漳：差不多。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
賴委員士葆：一點五幾，我這樣講，約1.6兆左右，還有9,000億左右的其他借款，對吧？這個數字都對，是你們的數字，所以總負債2.5兆，當然利息……9,000億不用利息，是1.6兆的利息，每一年利息224億，我就算過了，你們的負債1.6兆，利息224億，所以你們的利率大概一點多%，對不對？對吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
曾董事長文生：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
賴委員士葆：一點多%很便宜，現在去哪找1.6%？現在隨便都2%以上，1.6%，財政部的部長都可以講話了，對不對？你們利率有多少？2%起跳，對不對？部長，講一下好不好？莊部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
曾董事長文生：報告委員，我可以說明一下嗎？因為我們是發公司債。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
賴委員士葆：來、來、來，請莊部長，利率多少？平均利率。台電有夠便宜，多少？部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
莊部長翠雲：10年期的公債大概1.5左右。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
賴委員士葆：1.5，你們這都不到1.5啊，你看有夠便宜啊，對不對？因為你叫台電，臺灣的，所以沒有增加1,000億無傷啊，增加1,000億就增加多少？增加二十幾億的利息，你就有啦，所以你看，哇！這個郭智輝姿態之瀟灑、之傲慢啊，對著天花板，也不要看立委，對著天花板說借錢，很簡單，就借錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][1] |
我看曾董事長，其實我都覺得替你叫屈，曾文生應該當部長的，你當部長比郭智輝好太多了，太了解多了，對不對？生肖不合還是怎樣？你也不錯啊！綠也夠綠啊！為什麼沒有當上部長啊，你來就不會這樣講了，那天你在場對不對？對嘛！他有講要舉債，對吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
曾董事長文生：不是，他說…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：你聽到沒有？有沒有聽到？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
曾董事長文生：報告委員，他的意思是這樣，如果真的沒有得到大院通過這1,000億，台電只能舉債。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
賴委員士葆：舉債嘛！因為只有一年只有負擔二十出頭億嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
曾董事長文生：那個是逼不得已的作法。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
賴委員士葆：二十出頭億嘛！所以簡單說，就這句話，本來我對台電是無限地……不要說同情啊，台電這麼大的公司，賴士葆小立委何德何能要同情台電，台電的窟窿這麼多，我本來都中間偏向於說不定要支持一下，結果郭智輝講這句話，對不起，我的態度很清楚，我反對、我反對，因為1,000億利息只有20億多一點點…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
曾董事長文生：沒有啦！不是這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
賴委員士葆：你們負擔得起，沒有必要，這1,000億留給民間，為什麼？來，聽好喔，幾位長官看好這個數字喔！最近11年來，這是你們的數字，Taipower，資料來源都是Taipower、台電的，從2016年到2023年，核電總共幫你們賺了2,397億，將近2,400億，而你們今年虧了360億，去年2023年還賺了294億，因為有核電，所以有核電幫你們賺錢。老實講，今天要跟人家伸手要錢，一個孩子要跟父親要錢，不管父親有沒有錢，你一定會跟他說：我已經阮囊羞澀，窮極一切努力cost down，真的沒有錢了，我需要父母給我錢。這個我們會考慮，當然不是說立法院是父母，但人民是父母，立法院代表人民，對不對？但你們沒有窮極一切啊！你們把11年來賺2,400億的核電拿掉了，take for granted，認為理所當然的一定不要，所以又繼續虧，再加上這一點，我強烈反對給你們增資1,000億。我剛剛說過了，郭部長說可以舉債，舉債一年利息只不過20億出頭，你一年虧損360億，多虧個20億算什麼！而且這個錢來得很簡單，為什麼要老百姓拿1,000億出來？還恐嚇說不給1,000億要漲電價，請問，會漲電價嗎？董事長，會不會？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
曾董事長文生：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
賴委員士葆：會不會漲電價？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
曾董事長文生：電價不是台電公司決定的，是電價委員會決定的。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那這樣的意思，我的解讀就是，不管有沒有增資1,000億，都是電價委員會決定電價，即便給你1,000億，要漲還是會漲，對吧？對吧？請問你。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
連次長錦漳：因為有一些還是要適度反映成本，像天然氣從俄烏戰爭之前就已經漲了70%，然後那個煤…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
賴委員士葆：它一定要漲嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
連次長錦漳：對，因為漲太多，沒有適度調整，是沒有辦法因應的。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
賴委員士葆：換句話說，有沒有給你增資1,000億，跟漲電價是沒有關係的，郭部長胡說八道，說：給我1,000億…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
連次長錦漳：委員，不是這樣子，不是這樣子。因為我們為了穩定民生物價，還有CPI，要反映成本沒錯，可是對於民生用電這一塊…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
賴委員士葆：我再強調一遍，你不要跟我講之前的東西，我讓全國老百姓大家聽清楚，今天有沒有給你1,000億，對台電差別在20億左右，就這樣子，對不對？20億左右，而且電價審議委員會不會看有沒有增資1,000億，電價該漲就漲，不該漲就不漲，就這麼簡單的邏輯。來，曾董事長你講。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
曾董事長文生：報告委員，今年就我知道電價審查的時候，也有把政府補貼的因素考慮進去，它是考慮整體財務，如果我們得到補貼，相信電價委員會也會一併考慮，但我沒有辦法代替電價委員會…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
賴委員士葆：它有跟你說補貼1,000億就不漲價嗎？有這樣講嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
曾董事長文生：電價委員會不會這樣子講，它也不能…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
曾董事長文生：依它的職權，它也不可能…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：不能恐嚇啊！對不對？你講話就比郭智輝誠懇，而且抓到重點，郭智輝講話是「飄飄的」，「飄飄的」什麼意思你知道嗎？臺灣話叫「飄飄的」，抓不到邊際，眼睛看頭頂，不知道在講什麼，完全不進入狀況，你進入狀況，你了解，你今天講話都很專業。老實說，你沒有當部長我替你叫屈！我講得很清楚，郭智輝講那一句話，他說可以舉債，他沒有想到我們已經舉債了，長短期負債已經是1.6兆，他還要舉債1,000億，那就給他舉債，因為利息只有20億左右，再加上你們完全不用核電，明明可以讓你cost down，你不用，光這兩點，我絕對反對增資1,000億，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
主席：好，謝謝士葆委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
接著請郭國文委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
96 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-2-20,19-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
吳秉叡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
顏寬恒 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-11-27 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
11310701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
11310701_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
11310701_00001 |