| IVOD_ID |
157269 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157269 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-19-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-21T09:41:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-21T09:51:05+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fc78d56ce4a637521c207c389fd1383b7f9c834d54a4e02c19764a0ef6fec39b3b8468cd18c255a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:41:16 - 09:51:05 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所屬單位預算部分。
二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)） |
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請開會請到這位請國會留主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
55.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
張委員早注意COP29張開會氣象方會公佈氣象變遷的績效指標你有看到嗎?64個國家跟地區臺灣排名第60比去年有進步1名啦!也不要去調查不會更嚴重的淨零碳排這一塊都在後段班我很沒品數的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
臺灣這麼進步啊淨寧坦白話要過啊越寒越臭越退步國際上已經聯繫好幾年都打我們的嘴巴了來我更今天要更直接跟你跟你討論我去看你的預算書啊淨寧公正轉型的預算你每個編了要用人民納稅錢1億198萬結果現在怎麼樣連那個目標都訂不出來了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
107.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
一百一十二年跟一百一十三年都有啊,為什麼在一百一十四年?為什麼?我現在看不到你的目標值。你現在是怎樣?連目標都訂不出來了。一路走路倒退路以後。我們明年是編一千六百萬。我們明年是編一千六百萬。淨零減碳公正轉型的預算啊。對,我們是一千六百萬。您看這個表的下面也是寫一千……一千…… |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
134.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
一千六百二十萬你如果寫的是一千多少一千六百二十萬全部加起來不是一億九百一百九十八萬公正你如果這樣說我砍成一千多萬喔你講的是那個是永續會的部分啦永續會不用從一億多砍成一千多啦我比較嚴重了沒有沒有主委更嚴重了更嚴重了你看你要用人民納稅錢一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
137.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
166.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
結果你連一個目標值都沒有累你現在知道淨零碳牌做不好誰?連目標都不敢定了你看看右邊這個圖你110年跟111年跟今年你都還會想說你要出幾本書有一個具體的指標到今年114年除了什麼辦理實質的公眾資金、市場資金後面都空的你如果是個立法委員立法院第一個人民的願意給你這個錢嗎?立法院能夠把這個一億多給你嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
167.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
178.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第1項你倒退路啊你以前都有的指標連目標都沒有設是怎麼倒退路啊第1項你沒有具體的指標說你要怎麼進步我剛才跟你講國際上還在笑我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
180.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
195.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個錢能給你嗎?這一段能給你嗎?我們是都有目標值啦,我想這可能是有一個物質的部分。目標值什麼?你叫日本委員會要審議審,目標值沒有列出來啊?漏掉了是不是?沒有目標值?不可能啊。我們一定有目標值的。你那個螺絲釘掉滿地了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
198.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員這份資料我們來查證一下啦,我們查證一下再跟你... |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
244.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你要這1億多你去年跟前年都有很明確目標值我們每一項都有目標值你回答之前你看一下1、1、2年你的目標值實際做了什麼事情1、1、3年的目標值是什麼做了什麼事情這都很明確的啊結果你1、1、4你要拿1億多你整個都空下來你的你的頭腦也跟你搖頭了對不對第一個一個禮拜內要補期第二個更嚴重的我定 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
272.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主委,不是只有空白這個問題啦你連目標都沒有,你怎麼會要預算呢?你自己不知道要做什麼什麼,你怎麼會要預算?更嚴重的,過去幾年就是實行的成效又不好嘛這樣怎麼對得起民眾呢?好,一個禮拜內把那個目標值很明確定出來好不好?你一直要信嘛,你今天就是為了預算來的,結果你要空白那這個不叫螺絲釘掉滿地,什麼叫螺絲釘掉滿地? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
274.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
290.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主委,以前的國發會有,為什麼現在沒有?一個禮拜內把目標值很明確給本席好不好?明明有,我們有目標值啦,我想這應該是有,我不知道這份資料是我們哪裡出錯,我們更正了,因為這個目標值我都看過 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
296.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
322.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
今天更嚴重是過去的執行績效不好來這幾天你看這幾天台灣的空氣變成怎樣你外面在減碳減少空汙台灣這幾天減碳是不成空汙是暴增的我們看下一張圖你看這幾天台北天空一片灰台中連醫生都出來講在上演那個沉默之秋 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
324.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
350.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
左邊這個是14號的這個空氣你看紅通通一片到了15號整個更是紅通通的你減碳不好結果空污又這麼嚴重這對不起人民嗎?人民的健康會受到很大傷害注意你是定這個目標的人你要去達成這個好不好我給你看一個很恐怖的這個圖你看一下我們現在空氣壞到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
352.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
376.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們要減煤對不對減少燒煤這是國家政策嘛國化會定的對不對主委對不對結果你看我們的14號跟15號我們台電的10部10部燃煤的機組全部火力全開你看最上面的是林口的2號機第二個是大嶺的2號機下面有臺中最可憐的臺中有6個燒煤的機組在14號跟15號火力全開 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
381.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
408.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
前幾天已經你看那個七四圖常常都已經火力全開後來可以降下來一點點稍微喘一下人民呼吸可以稍微喘息一下下14號、15號全部都是在最高峰欸你看火力全開欸特別是台中的跟台中附近的這個居民是多麼可憐六個燒煤的機組全部火力全開我們看下一張不是只有燃煤沒有做到燒重油是不是更嚴重對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
410.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
414.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展基金、花東地區永續發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
434.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
461.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
南部的民眾已經犧牲那麼多年,健康都受影響了,費限還那麼高,說不要延遇好不好?你們堅持延遇,可是你們保證說盡量如果一號機開了,三號機不要開,我給你看下一張。那14號跟15號,賣了不只開了一號機,火力全開,連三號機都燒了。這樣怎麼對得起人民呢?人民用費在呼吸,用生命在呼吸。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
462.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
489.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那這個還是你國家的政策、國發會的政策所以注意你很重要的責任喔好不好怎麼樣減少在燒煤怎麼樣讓空溫可以減少你要多花時間好不好而且要非常具體我們今天都不是用嘴巴講而已我今天給你看的東西都是非常具體的好不好另外要問你一個事情你明年的這個宣傳費用暴增了一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
491.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
518.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
大內宣、文宣的這個費用暴增了一倍還比較離近的我給你看一下寶定你看這個表你知道嗎你的媒體宣傳費用在有線電視情有獨鍾一家從去年的1、1、2年到今年的1、1、3年主委聽我說聽我說我去調資料出來這個大家都查得到的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
520.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
529.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們全台灣的有線電視從48台開始東森、財經、E電視、連帶電視台東森一直算過來到56有民視、TBS到輝煩都中11台結果你情有獨中獨大一家你這不是得罪其他10家嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
543.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
553.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個我承諾改善啦因為博定院院長已經講不要過度集中嘛因為這個不是過度集中的喔你是情有獨鍾一家獨大喔好不好所以其他的要擴大第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
555.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
575.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你的錢為什麼增加那麼多?你的先傳費從一千一年一年一千六百九十五萬一家暴增到三千萬我們主要增加的部分跟委員報告主要是來自兩個部份三個部份亞洲矽谷跟地方創生從前瞻預算移轉然後加上門材的部分不要一直大內宣這是第一個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
576.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
582.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
二、不要擒有獨宗一家其他不換寡而換不均其他都要照顧到第三、不能夠編這麼多預算這個預算編這麼多我一定是大砍的 |
| gazette.lineno |
153 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（9時41分）請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請國發會劉主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：張委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
張委員啓楷：主委，COP29開會，氣候峰會公布氣象變遷的績效指標，你有看到嘛，64個國家跟地區，臺灣排名第60，比去年進步1名，但我們一直在吊車尾；更嚴重的，淨零碳排這一塊都在後段班，有沒有很沒面子？臺灣這麼進步，淨零碳排喊那麼久了，越喊越做越退步，國際上已經連續好幾年都打我們的嘴巴了。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
我今天要更直接跟你討論，我去看你的預算書，淨零公正轉型的預算，你明年編列的經費，要用人民納稅錢1億198萬，結果現在連那個目標都訂不出來嗎？你在112年跟113年都有啊，為什麼在114年看不到你的目標值，現在是怎樣？連目標都訂不出來了，是越做越倒退嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：我們明年是編1,600萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
張委員啓楷：淨零減碳公正轉型的預算啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們是編1,600萬，您看這個表的下面也是寫1,620萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
張委員啓楷：你寫的是多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：1,620萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
張委員啓楷：全部加起來不是1億198萬？你如果這樣說，我就砍成一千多萬喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：那個是永續會的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
張委員啓楷：不用從一億多砍成一千多啦？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
張委員啓楷：主委，更嚴重的，你看你要用人民納稅錢1億，結果你目標值都沒有列，你現在是怎麼樣？淨零碳排做不好，連目標都不敢訂了，你看看右邊這個圖，110年跟111年跟今年你都還會講說要出幾本書，有一個具體的指標，到今年114年，除了辦理實質的公眾諮詢10場次，後面都是空白的，你如果是個立法委員，第一個，人民願意給你這個錢嗎？立法委員能夠把這個一億多給你嗎？第二個，你「倒退嚕」喔，你以前都有的指標，這次連目標都沒有設，為什麼「倒退嚕」？第三個，沒有具體的指標，你要怎麼進步？我剛才跟你說國際上都在笑我們，這個錢能給你嗎？這一億多能給你嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：我們是都有目標值，我想這可能是有誤置的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
張委員啓楷：目標值寫在哪？你叫立法委員審預算，結果目標值沒有列出來啊！沒有目標值啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：我們一定有目標值的。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
張委員啓楷：主委，你螺絲釘掉滿地了，以前國發會都有做，你今年送來的東西竟然沒有喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：委員，你這份資料，我們來查證一下，我們查證一下再跟你…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
張委員啓楷：要查，螺絲釘掉滿地了，好不好？拴緊一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：不會掉滿地，我盯得夠緊。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
張委員啓楷：你連目標值都沒有，立法委員要怎麼審預算？你要這一億多，你去年跟前年都有很明確的目標值。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：我們每一項都有…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
張委員啓楷：主委，你看左邊的112年，你回答之前先看一下，112年的目標值實際做了什麼事情，113年的目標值是做了什麼事情，這都很明確的啊，結果114年你要拿一億多，但卻整個都是空下來的，你的同仁給你搖頭了，對不對？第一個，一個禮拜內要補齊；第二個，更嚴重的，主委，不是只有空白這個問題，你連目標都沒有，你怎麼要預算呢？你自己都不知道要做到什麼程度，你怎麼要預算？第三個，更嚴重的，過去幾年就是實行的成效又不好嘛！這樣怎麼對得起民眾呢？一個禮拜內把那個目標值很明確訂出來，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好。 |
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張委員啓楷：你的預算要審嘛！你今天就是為了預算來的，結果你還空白，這個不叫螺絲釘掉滿地，什麼叫螺絲釘掉滿地？主委，以前的國發會有，為什麼現在沒有？好，你們回去再討論，一個禮拜內，把目標值很明確給本席，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：我們有目標值啊，我想這應該是有……我不知道這份資料是我們哪裡出錯…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
張委員啓楷：這是你們提供的資料。 |
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劉主任委員鏡清：我們來更正啦。 |
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張委員啓楷：對，馬上更正，好不好？ |
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劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個目標值我都看過。 |
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張委員啓楷：主委，更嚴重的是過去的執行績效不好。 |
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你看這幾天臺灣的空氣變怎麼樣？你一方面要減碳，一方面要減少空污，臺灣這幾天是減碳不成、空污暴增。我們看下一張圖，你看這幾天臺北天空一片灰，連醫生都出來講說臺中是在上演沉默之丘，左邊這是14號的空氣，你看，紅通通一片，到了15號，整個更是紅通通的。你減碳沒弄好，結果空污又這麼嚴重，這對得起人民嗎？人民的健康會受到很大的傷害耶，主委，你是訂這個目標的人，你要去達成，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好的。 |
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張委員啓楷：我給你看一個很恐怖的圖，你看一下，我們現在空氣壞到什麼程度？我們要減少燒煤，這是國家政策嘛，國發會訂的，對不對？主委，對嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
張委員啓楷：結果你看14號跟15號，台電10部燃煤機組全部火力全開，你看最上面的是林口的二號機，第二個是大林的二號機，臺中最可憐，臺中有6個燒煤的機組，在14號跟15號火力全開，你看趨勢圖，常常都火力全開，後來降下來一點點、稍微喘一下，人民呼吸可以稍微喘息一下下，14號、15號是全部都在最高峰，你看，火力全開耶！特別是臺中附近的居民，多麼可憐，6個燒煤的機組全部火力全開。我們看下一張，不是只有燃煤沒有做到，燒重油是不是更嚴重，對不對？基隆的協和，那個更貴，而且是更嚴重的，14跟15號不是只有10部台電的機組，連燒重油的全部都開了。再看下一張，民間的，那時候我一直在強調，我問行政院長、問你們，你們都說沒有缺電，我說沒缺電但你麥寮電廠卻燒煤炭，南部的民眾已經犧牲那麼多年，健康都受影響了，肺腺癌比例那麼高，說不要延役好不好，你們堅持延役，可是你們保證說如果一號機開了，儘量三號機不要開。我給你看下一張，14號跟15號麥寮不只開了一號機，火力全開，連三號機都燒了，這樣怎麼對得起人民呢？人民用肺在呼吸、用生命在呼吸，這還是國家的政策、國發會的政策。所以主委你有很重要的責任，怎麼樣減少燒煤，怎麼讓空污可以減少，你要多花時間，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張委員啓楷：而且要非常具體，我們今天都不是用嘴巴講而已，我今天給你看的東西都是非常具體的，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張委員啓楷：好。另外我要問你一個事情，你明年的宣傳費用暴增了一倍，大內宣文宣的費用暴增了一倍，更離譜的，我給你看一下，部長，你看這個表，你知道嗎？你的媒體宣傳費用，有線電視情有獨鍾一家，從去年112年到今年113年，主委…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
張委員啓楷：你聽我說，我去調資料出來，這個大家都查得到的資料，我們全臺灣的有線電視從48臺開始，東森財經、壹電視、年代電視臺、東森一直算過來，到56有民視、TVBS對不對？到非凡總共11臺，結果你只情有獨鍾、獨大1家，這不是得罪其他10家嗎？而且…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個我承諾改善。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長已經講了不要過度集中，這個不只過度集中了，你是情有獨鍾、一家獨大喔！好不好？所以其他的要擴大。第二個，你的錢為什麼增加那麼多？你的宣傳費從今年1,695萬一下暴增到3,000萬。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們增加的部分主要是來自三個部分，亞洲矽谷跟地方創生從前瞻預算移轉，然後加上人才的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
張委員啓楷：事情先做好比較重要，不要一直大內宣，這是第一個點；第二個，不要情有獨鍾一家好不好？不患寡而患不均，其他都要照顧到；第三個，不能夠編這麼多預算，這個預算編這麼多，我一定是大砍的。好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，主委請回座。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
主席：本席是情有獨鍾臺灣隊。下一位質詢請鄭正鈐委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
214 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-19-16 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
169 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-11-21 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
11310401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
11310401_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院歲入預算第5款第1項第2目暨國家發展委員會及所
屬單位預算部分；二、審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主
管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
11310401_00003 |