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委員名稱 黃國昌
委員發言時間 09:14:32 - 09:31:36
影片長度 1024
會議時間 2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00
會議名稱 立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議(事由:邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具,及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告,並備質詢。)
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transcript.whisperx[0].text 謝謝主席是不是可以麻煩有請我們法務部部長以及司法院的刑事廳廳長好 廳長
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transcript.whisperx[1].text 兩位好憲法法庭針對有關於死刑作出判決以後具體在執行上面接下來要怎麼樣處理都是社會大眾非常關心的問題我之前在執行的時候已經請教過了其中
transcript.whisperx[2].start 45.278
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transcript.whisperx[2].text 針對有關於死刑判決應經各級法院合議庭法官的一致決這個是在113年憲判字第八號的主文當中清楚記載的那這樣的一個判決在實際上面的運作過去這段時間引發相當大的討論我在之前質詢的時候也曾經請教過說世界上到底有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的立法例
transcript.whisperx[3].start 72.54
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transcript.whisperx[3].text 那司法院也沒有辦法明確的回覆但沒有辦法啦憲法法庭做了判決以後這個結果就是整個台灣社會我們必須要共同承受那因此在具體的操作上先請問一下刑事廳廳長在憲法法庭做出這樣的判決以後第一審如果要做死刑的宣告的話需不需要一字決還需要那如果上訴到第二審
transcript.whisperx[4].start 99.594
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transcript.whisperx[4].text 不管第二審是維持第一審的死刑判決還是第二審把第一審非死刑的判決撤銷改判為死刑判決需不需要一致決需要這樣的死刑判決上訴到最高法院的時候最高法院如果要維持死刑判決需不需要一致決需要需要嘛
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transcript.whisperx[5].text 那因此對未來的部分在實際上面的運作你剛回答得很清楚現在大家更關心的事情是那37位現在還在牢中的死刑犯要怎麼處理的問題嗎憲法法庭裡面說什麼他說如果不符合主文第6項一指的部分指的就是判決要一字決
transcript.whisperx[6].start 146.187
transcript.whisperx[6].end 161.302
transcript.whisperx[6].text 除非有證據證明各該確定終局判決系以一致決作成以外除非你有證據可以證明都是用一致決作成否則的話檢察總長提起非常上述
transcript.whisperx[7].start 162.669
transcript.whisperx[7].end 184.791
transcript.whisperx[7].text 現場法庭的判決寫得很清楚我因為關心這個事情所以我就開始請司法院上一次的時候我就請你們提供一到三審現在37位是不是有一致決當然我們最後鎖定的是在最終審最高法院的判決結果結果你們回給我有兩個部分
transcript.whisperx[8].start 185.712
transcript.whisperx[8].end 207.039
transcript.whisperx[8].text 一個部分是七位還有評議部評議部還沒有銷毀的評議部沒有銷毀的你們回給我的書面答案是說你們只是司法行政機關沒有辦法申請越攬評議意見所以只能告訴我說評議部還存著但是你們看不到評議的意見沒有辦法越攬嘛
transcript.whisperx[9].start 207.833
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transcript.whisperx[9].text 但我就覺得很奇怪,你們書面回覆給我是這個樣子但是我們召委安排到臺北地方法院考察的時候我們事後在臺北地方法院進行座談的時候結果你們的副秘書長就直接講留有七個還有評議部的都有一字訣那你們的副秘書長是怎麼知道評議部的內容
transcript.whisperx[10].start 234.102
transcript.whisperx[10].end 250.618
transcript.whisperx[10].text 這部分跟委員說明一下那這個部分不是我們去越南那個相關的評議部是我們透過行政管道跟最高法院聯繫他們有回覆最高檢的一些相關的查詢他們回覆說目前還有六件
transcript.whisperx[11].start 251.899
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transcript.whisperx[11].text 6件欺人的評議部是保留著那目前可以用這個方式來證明是當時的一致決說我用這樣衍生出來這部分是有一致決的以上所以嘛我們法律人就把話講清楚了這已經判刑確定了評議部裡面是不是有一致決社會大眾都很關心你們就要公開大大方方的講
transcript.whisperx[12].start 278.479
transcript.whisperx[12].end 301.032
transcript.whisperx[12].text 回給我的函搞得神神秘秘的結果你們本來就知道阿這是一秘密的事項嗎如果這是一秘密的事項的話最高法院讓你們副秘書長知道那不就違反泄密罪了應該是不是阿更嚴重的事情阿是30個死刑犯評議部已經銷毀了現在怎麼辦
transcript.whisperx[13].start 304.656
transcript.whisperx[13].end 323.961
transcript.whisperx[13].text 那目前如果沒辦法證明是一致決的話那可以由檢察總長來斟酌是否要替這相關的死刑犯來提起非常上訴你說有檢察總長來斟酌現在法庭的判決寫得這麼清楚了檢察總長有不提起非常上訴的空間嗎
transcript.whisperx[14].start 325.26
transcript.whisperx[14].end 354.169
transcript.whisperx[14].text 因為非常上就是檢察總長的獨佔這我了解啦 權責上面是檢察總長嘛我們法律人依法論法嘛請你回到憲法法庭的判決皮衣不銷毀了到底有沒有一致決限於真偽不明你們那天在台北地院的時候講得很清楚不利益是由檢方、由法院這邊來加以負擔按照憲判制的判決程序保障要求最嚴密啊一定要一致決啊
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transcript.whisperx[15].text 沒有一字訣沒有辦法證明有一字訣檢察總長有不提起非常上述的空間嗎如果依照憲判的意思是應該要提起好來接下來請部長針對目前現在處理的狀況檢察總長我看起來30個啊評議部已經銷毀的依法論法
transcript.whisperx[16].start 379.478
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transcript.whisperx[16].text 檢察總長是沒有不提起非常上述的空間提起非常上述了以後依照現判制的判決這個訴訟程序恐怕有違背法令的問題那原判決就要撤銷就要重啟程序了這件事情法務部研議準備好了嗎
transcript.whisperx[17].start 399.471
transcript.whisperx[17].end 427.377
transcript.whisperx[17].text 這部分要不要提起非常上述這還是尊重檢察總長的罪這些檢察總長要不要尊重憲法法庭的判決當然這檢察總長要先判意思對嘛所以我們剛剛講了半天法律人就是依法論法當然是檢察總長的職權嘛檢察總長的職權也不是檢察總長愛幹嘛就幹嘛檢察總長也要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊再不高興再不滿意再反對
transcript.whisperx[18].start 429.042
transcript.whisperx[18].end 443.435
transcript.whisperx[18].text 我們活在這個體制裡面就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊現在我關心的是檢察總長提起非常上述重啟程序了以後接下來的因應法務部跟最高檢察署這邊準備好沒有這部分
transcript.whisperx[19].start 448.903
transcript.whisperx[19].end 467.019
transcript.whisperx[19].text 有關於本部只能做就是有關於那個修法的那個一個部分依憲判意旨來做一個修法那這部分我們那個憲判意旨有提到就是有關於刑法跟那個監獄刑法的修法那這部分我們在不少請你針對問題回答啦不要移轉問題啦
transcript.whisperx[20].start 469.269
transcript.whisperx[20].end 484.458
transcript.whisperx[20].text 修法以前你還是要按照先判制來做嘛這沒有問題嘛社會大眾現在關心的事情是提起非常上述訴訟程序違背法令重啟程序以後接下來的事情法務部跟最高檢察署準備好沒有
transcript.whisperx[21].start 487.025
transcript.whisperx[21].end 512.896
transcript.whisperx[21].text 那這部分審判的事務應該是由司法院來做一個回應那有關你委員提到的槌尋就是本部的因應的部分那當然我們可以做到最高檢查組跟高檢署我們有跟那個最高跟高檢保持橫向聯繫、中向聯繫來密切掌握案件的一個動態嗎沒有關係啦我覺得部長某個程度上面來講啦你的憤記
transcript.whisperx[22].start 514.136
transcript.whisperx[22].end 533.393
transcript.whisperx[22].text 有的時候守得很好所謂有的時候守得很好你覺得這個是檢察總長的事情你沒有辦法回答我尊重我尊重但是今天利用這個機會質詢是要讓部長知道可能檢察體系的人包括司法院的人心裡都要做好準備
transcript.whisperx[23].start 534.778
transcript.whisperx[23].end 554.753
transcript.whisperx[23].text 接下來30個死刑的確定判決被撤銷重啟程序了以後所有的成本是這個國家這個社會大家共同來承擔所以我是基於善意才提醒你們接下來的程序接下來可能會造成的衝擊大家準備好了沒有
transcript.whisperx[24].start 555.714
transcript.whisperx[24].end 585.394
transcript.whisperx[24].text 接下來下一個問題跟今天我們打詐最主要的目的就是要防止被詐騙保護被詐騙的受害人嘛我一直在追蹤IMB的案子IMB的案子從起訴以前我在協助這些被害人現在一審判決出來了那當然除了祖賢、鄭耀峰、張淑芬這兩個人以外其他的人也都被判刑了
transcript.whisperx[25].start 585.974
transcript.whisperx[25].end 599.2
transcript.whisperx[25].text 但問題是現在被害者所面臨到的問題是什麼?曾耀峰、張淑芬、顏妙珍這一些人有一些有刑法加重詐欺被想像競合但最後還是用銀行法不法吸金罪
transcript.whisperx[26].start 600.205
transcript.whisperx[26].end 617.379
transcript.whisperx[26].text 罪責比較高所以想像競合從一種手段都是用銀行法來判但現在問題來了他們現在在刑事訴訟要提起附帶民事訴訟的時候刑事訴訟提起附帶民事訴訟來請教刑事院庭長需要繳裁判費嗎
transcript.whisperx[27].start 618.36
transcript.whisperx[27].end 639.927
transcript.whisperx[27].text 如果在刑事程序提起負擔民事訴訟是不用繳裁判費好 非常好但是啊 現在被害人接到了地方法院的裁定接到地方法院的裁定啊 說什麼說他們不能夠提起刑事賦名要他們補繳裁判費不能提起刑事賦名要補繳裁判費這個法律見解從哪裡來的
transcript.whisperx[28].start 641.753
transcript.whisperx[28].end 667.947
transcript.whisperx[28].text 這個主要是他到底是直接被害人還是間接被害人刑事訴訟法就有關於附帶民事訴訟的提起有限制在直接被害人嗎目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來來來你說目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來看一看111年啊台灣高等法院法律座談他們最後的結論壓倒性的是什麼壓倒性的我唸給你看
transcript.whisperx[29].start 669.505
transcript.whisperx[29].end 681.795
transcript.whisperx[29].text 不以所犯之罪是直接侵害個人法義違憲依照《刑事訴訟法》487條第一項規定的文義沒有限制是否法義直接或間接受害絕大多數喔
transcript.whisperx[30].start 686.539
transcript.whisperx[30].end 709.521
transcript.whisperx[30].text 法官的見解跟剛剛廳長表示的見解不太一樣民事的那個見解是他以直接被害人為基礎的對嘛那我現在就問題就來了法律人啊法律人自己啊可以有假說、以說、秉說、聽說那在法律人自己的世界裡但我要拜託廳長、拜託司法院跳出來思考的是什麼
transcript.whisperx[31].start 710.526
transcript.whisperx[31].end 727.886
transcript.whisperx[31].text 可不可以回到一般人在意的事情回到被害人在意的事情當我們的法院系統都已經浩浩蕩蕩找了六七十個法官喔找了六七十個法官喔
transcript.whisperx[32].start 728.723
transcript.whisperx[32].end 753.61
transcript.whisperx[32].text 最後大家可以說是絕大多數壓倒性的共識認為不應該限於直接被害人間接被害人應該要把他含掛在裡面但問題是這樣的結論做出來了實際被害人他在地方法院還是面臨到相同的困難他現在面臨到的困難是說我一定要補繳裁判費要不然我不能請求損害賠償
transcript.whisperx[33].start 756.96
transcript.whisperx[33].end 778.37
transcript.whisperx[33].text 我如果不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情我不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情裁定駁回就是一腳把他踢出法院的大門之外嘛你沒有錢繳裁判費裁定駁回但我們現在在討論的是詐騙的被害人
transcript.whisperx[34].start 781.107
transcript.whisperx[34].end 794.908
transcript.whisperx[34].text 是詐騙的被害人這樣子司法實務上面的操作符合對詐騙被害人的保護嗎來請教廳長那個跟國元說明一下事實上如果他沒有錢繳裁判費那還有什麼訴訟救助可以申請
transcript.whisperx[35].start 795.99
transcript.whisperx[35].end 817.167
transcript.whisperx[35].text 你還要他再繞一個路然後再去處理訴訟救助啊你如果這個是答案的話啦你如果這個是答案的話刑事赴民為了要保護這些被害人不用繳裁判費的這個規定就可以廢啦你全部都廢掉嘛你告訴每一個人啦去申請訴訟救助啊這個是我們面對被害人應該有的態度嗎
transcript.whisperx[36].start 823.371
transcript.whisperx[36].end 848.153
transcript.whisperx[36].text 這個是我的問題啦當絕大多數的法官都抱持這樣的見解他們那個結論是有給司法院的你知道嗎那個民事的個案的部分我這邊不便再表示沒有先停一下啦我不會跟你談個案我再跟你談的全部都是抽象的法律原則但我們看到抽象的法律原則應該要保護詐欺的被害人
transcript.whisperx[37].start 849.665
transcript.whisperx[37].end 870.96
transcript.whisperx[37].text 應該要便於他們求償嘛但實際上面的實踐卻不是這樣所以才請教你請教你是我希望做的事情是試圖試圖在司法體系當中不要再耗費大家的勞力時間費用如果能夠統一法令見解的話不要讓這些人很辛苦
transcript.whisperx[38].start 871.912
transcript.whisperx[38].end 880.849
transcript.whisperx[38].text 因為他們接下來要冒的法律風險是什麼我讓你裁定駁回嘛裁定駁回以後我不服就抗告嘛抗告到上級審的法院
transcript.whisperx[39].start 882.148
transcript.whisperx[39].end 908.73
transcript.whisperx[39].text 去討公道但問題是我們法律人出一張嘴巴講簡單我們用嘴巴講的程序都是這些被害人他們要自己付出勞力時間費用一個一個堆疊起來的等到他們真的討到正義的時候其實已經身心俱疲老實講現在已經身心俱疲這個案件拖了七年這個案件拖了七年
transcript.whisperx[40].start 910.098
transcript.whisperx[40].end 932.01
transcript.whisperx[40].text 現在才一審判決出來什麼時候判決確定實現正義之路還遙遙無期我希望司法院回去因為這個不是我給司法院的功課這個是最後投票出來的結果我跟廳長報告其中有47個人認為根本就不應該什麼根本就不應該去採
transcript.whisperx[41].start 935.839
transcript.whisperx[41].end 956.161
transcript.whisperx[41].text 直接背叛的見解,間接背叛也要在裡面最後的結論是建請司法院轉請最高法院研究這個司法院有收到嗎?有轉請最高法院研究嗎?那個時候我還沒來沒有關係啊你還沒來你回去跟司法院那些大官講啊
transcript.whisperx[42].start 957.706
transcript.whisperx[42].end 971.599
transcript.whisperx[42].text 趕快統一法令見解保障這些被害人的權益因為你們如果不做當我們確定你們不做這件事情的時候立法者別無選擇下一個行動就是修法
transcript.whisperx[43].start 972.543
transcript.whisperx[43].end 992.91
transcript.whisperx[43].text 就是修法我在法條裡面把它明定不以直接被害為限否則的話絕大多數的見解全部都已經出來了還有法官做這樣的線索解釋導致被害人欲哭無淚這個不是我們制定這些法律在保障被害人權益的初衷
transcript.whisperx[44].start 994.962
transcript.whisperx[44].end 1022.186
transcript.whisperx[44].text 聽長可以嗎?是,謝謝委員指教你不用謝謝我指教我剛拜託你做的事情我幫被害者發聲啊是,謝謝幫他們說的話請您帶回去給司法院然後依照這些法官的建議建請最高法院趕快統一法令間接如果法令間接統一的話趕快讓地方法院的法官知道否則這樣的情況會不斷的發生啊這樣可以嗎?可以,沒問題好,謝謝好,謝謝
IVOD_ID 157259
IVOD_URL https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157259
日期 2024-11-21
會議資料.會議代碼 委員會-11-2-36-15
會議資料.屆 11
會議資料.會期 2
會議資料.會次 15
會議資料.種類 委員會
會議資料.委員會代碼[0] 36
會議資料.標題 第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議
影片種類 Clip
開始時間 2024-11-21T09:14:32+08:00
結束時間 2024-11-21T09:31:36+08:00
支援功能[0] ai-transcript