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| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:48:31 - 10:09:44 |
| 影片長度 |
1273 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席是不是請我們這個勞動部部長部長昨天你們的行政調查結果報告出來那引起很多的這個迴響那其中有一個說法是這樣子就是說調查小組的召集人是誰 |
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許傳聖次長有人說許傳聖次長跟這個謝宜蓉這個分署長是在北市政府社會局的時候舊事然後他也曾經公開跟大家說我認識謝宜蓉很久了她只是個性級 |
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54.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
結果在調查的時候甚至曾經有傳出他對調查小組的委員說要還優秀的人才清白然後聽說我們的許次長經常下鄉的時候都說怡榮要賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
80.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
要陪、要跟著然後呢我們就看到了你們定調的這個行政調查結果你們大概的講的範圍是說謝玉榮他基本上是這個過度求好心切啦你們的基本上是這樣講這個跟他的管理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
115.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個並不是同仁離開的直接原因而他個人因為求好心切其他都是高工時、人力不足這一些問題所以看起來我們有傳出說這個次長跟他交情頗好結果調查小組都是跟他交情頗好的人在當召集人這樣的事情你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
129.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員首先第一點我要澄清許次長他是30年前跟他在臺北市沒有啦也不只是這樣子他也公開說我認識他很久了他只是個性急他就公開跟大家這樣講啊媒體報導的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
131.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
138.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我想那是她過去對她個性的理解所以有此可知她們很熟阿很理解阿然後她下降的時候都會說怡榮要賠阿委員您放心阿因為我們的調查那她跟調查小組的成員說我們要還優秀的人才清白這是什麼意思預設立場我不知道她講這句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
157.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我現在有點好奇就是說依照人事總署的這個機制、體制他要求你們要有這個那個叫什麼我看一下那個叫什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
175.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
178.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
機關首長如果涉及職場霸凌事件應由上級機關受理申訴事宜請各機關並同通盤檢視、修正內容相關處理作業流程並督導所屬機關落實辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
221.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
什麼時候定出你們機關首長如果涉案你們的標準作業流程還有督導這個要怎麼樣進行你們是什麼時候定出來的我請人事長來回答嗎那個人事處長你們是什麼時候定出來的112年9月發文給你們你們什麼時候定出來的人事處長什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
236.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
253.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
113年3月哦聽清楚哦3月哦今年3月才訂出來人家去年9月就叫勞動部你們訂出一個關於機關首長若涉及職場霸凌要怎麼處理的機制最近修訂是3月 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
254.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
276.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你們不是修訂啊,你們增訂機關所長涉案是今年3月才訂今年3月是什麼時候?好沒關係今年3月是什麼狀況?今年3月是今年2月我們的王前次長你剛才講的他有沒有私底下跟勞發署分署長謝一榮討論人家所謂的陳秦涵的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
280.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我真的不知道有沒有這件事我理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
304.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你那時候還沒有修訂機關首長涉及霸凌事件的標準處理程序那你們拿著員工的陳情函然後跟被申訴者進行私底下的談話 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
314.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我去陳情了你拿了我的陳情函去跟我陳情的對象去進行私底下的談話這是勞動部關於機關首長涉及職場霸凌的申訴處理標準制度的SOP嗎不是當然不是阿你們就是這樣做欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
338.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
市長就這樣做了你剛剛講說他們私底下談話我員工去陳情了裡面陳情內容包括這個謝玉榮在公共空間栽種個人植物運用公家的資源用電過量導致這個超過前期使用量然後還包括對下屬言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝然後還包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
360.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
382.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
宣導禮品濫發和花費高還包括2023年去年8月開始因個人私教學校運用同一名講師上各式各樣課程且成為多元方案顧問然後還包括強迫同仁要跑步然後你們都說這是求好心切欸這裏面不是設計霸凌人家檢舉的澄清函裏面很多還包括這個關針出問題欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
389.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
399.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後呢,你們拿了這張澄清函,然後去跟被檢舉的機關所長私底下談話,你理解的叫私底下談話。我先請教你,這一個澄清函有沒有具名? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
423.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我根本不知道有沒有調查你那時候我可以認知到你不是首長所以你不知道但這個事情鬧得沸沸揚揚了你現在還跟我講說你不知道你做完行政調查了你還說我不知情這樣會贏嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
425.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
454.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那我問你你現在不知情二月人家陳秦涵你們是私底下談話次長跟謝宜蓉私底下就戳掉了沒有立案僅你口頭告知叫謝宜蓉要注意言行然後就結案掉了沒有立案所以你理解成是私底下談話這個就是你們的SOP然後呢同這件事情私底下談話之後發生什麼事你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
456.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就是發聲你們勞發署的謝一榮的分署用北分署人字第1130700162號發文要求同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
470.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
496.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
發文的主題是避免發生洩漏公務機密的情勢正式發文給北分署裡面所有的單位你們不可以發生洩漏公務機密的情勢然後3月發生什麼事3月你們就增訂了有關機關首長涉及霸凌事件應由這個具管轄權的上級機關受理申訴事宜的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
498.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
啊 這個程序是這樣子人家跟你們陳情了陳情了有關爭可能有這個貪污的疑似貪污情結更有對屬下言語霸凌怒罵情緒暴衝你們的上級機關知情之下是私底下談話沒有立案用口頭告知注意言行結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後謝玉榮回去很生氣就發了一張公文給大家不可以發生洩露公務機密的公文然後你們就趕快訂了一個機關首長涉及霸凌事件的受理申訴的事宜的處理規定好 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
540.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我覺得這個行為是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
565.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
581.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以如果 因為委員 我現在也正在立案調查中欸 你們的標準程序也不是這樣處理啊好 結果你們就這樣 我現在要再講一件事喔因為我覺得很擔心上行下效啊 組織文化啊只有謝義榮這樣子嗎 沒有 沒有 沒有你們的署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
608.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
蔡孟良就一開始也是覺得他是很優秀只是管理嚴格了一點啊我想署長啊你啊你自己任內有沒有逼走逼退很多人啊你自己單位裡面你勞發署署長有沒有情緒失控的情勢發生過呢?你有沒有主管也是受不了你霸凌離職過呢?有沒有?報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
611.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我的行政管理上確實我比較嚴格那我的所有的主管我們都希望能夠一起共同打拼每一個要離開的我都希望能夠留下來所以跟委員報告我們還是希望我再問你有沒有咧你有沒有副署長你一個副署長寧願降調分數也不願再跟你一起共事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
644.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你有沒有曾經情緒控管人差標罵同仁啊?你有沒有像管理小學生一樣,你們署內有5S?要做衛生管理檢查,東西要放整齊,茶水間要怎麼放?你有沒有像小學生一樣也在管理你的同仁? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
656.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
675.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
跟委員報告 這個部分絕對沒有所謂的霸凌跟不當管理你霸凌的人都不會覺得自己霸凌別人 你有沒有情緒控管失控 標罵同仁 我講有沒有標罵同仁跟委員報告 我現在在所有的公務上 都是依照公務的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
676.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
695.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你有沒有賴副署長寧願降調分數也不要再繼續留著?跟委員報告,如果賴副署長是因為我霸凌,我可以請他共同,因為他是因為家庭的照顧因素。人家要走的人敢講真話嗎?霸凌就這樣子,就是這樣子。部長,你來講看看。我會擔心你是上行下效組織文化啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
702.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
709.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那我現在聽到說也有副署長寧可降調分數也一定要離開還有5S管理不要罵同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
716.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
729.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
而且署內很標準就是人一直人力不斷的流失不是只有分署分署2年流失了81個人這個裡面還包括正式編制主任編制11個離職9個科長編制6個離職5個這是謝玉榮的成就但我們其他的署內不是分署喔我們勞防署署內有沒有這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
743.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果有這個情況,我們就一律徹查,包含我本人我現在在請教這個部長,對你就是可能是也是需要一併調查的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
755.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
從這個許次長跟謝毓榮交情這麼好到你們的署長跟分署長也交情這麼好然後到你們調查出來你們的調查行政調查的報告說管理方式不是造成同仁離開的直接原因可是你們又講同仁的離開主要是因為單獨從事資訊工作量過於龐大以及壓力太大又缺乏足夠的資源協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
781.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這不是分署長的管理責任嗎?她工作量過大、壓力過大、沒有資源協助,這不是分署長的管理有問題嗎?的確,一定是。可是你第一點就是說,謝分署長管理方式不是同仁離開的直接原因。 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
804.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
822.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
抱歉委員可能我那一句話比較講得太過簡要沒有講到這麼的完整對啦因為這樣講讓我們都很擔心啦然後因為這樣講人家看不到啊你說不是他管理方式讓他選擇離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
824.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
824.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是啊 確實是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
847.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
867.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
整個單位都被他霸凌了所以你說沒有辦法證明他霸凌這個離開的員工但我現在再一個就是說你們認定的理由裡面第一個不公平對待或過度要求行為第一長工時超時工作早上5點多到下午7、8點 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
869.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
870.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
每一天他快要崩潰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
887.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
912.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們這位離開的同仁非常盡責這是我也很不捨的地方而且他寧願打假卡大家都不知道他為什麼要這麼做你知道嗎 你們第二個調查是說人力配置不合理但是這裡面我講的就是說北分署諮詢室是1加5個承攬人這裡面你們自己寫的報告承攬就是制度面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
915.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
928.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
職場霸凌的這個原因很難講得清楚但其中一個就是說業務量過大他有苦難言有苦難以申訴然後沒有人可以幫忙做可是他有6個人為什麼沒有人可以幫他做因為依規定承懷人 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
933.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
934.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
現在問題來了以前是派遣 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
959.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
963.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
派遣可不可以指揮監督?要派公司可不可以指揮監督? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
966.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
988.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那改成承攬,我們可不可以對他直接指揮監督,要求他協助做什麼?那派遣還能指揮?承攬不可以?所以有人在那裡,他也不能叫他分擔啊?所以這是不是問題?你們把所有的派遣都拿掉,改成承攬? |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
990.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1008.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這制度面出問題欸是是那你要怎麼解決對所以我要跟行政院反映這個問題是因為這是整個我們制度上的問題我知道啊所以大家給聲啊啊我們都不要用派遣啦派遣低薪啦派遣勞動條件差啦你應該要去改善他的低薪和勞動條件差結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1012.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1017.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
當初把派遣的人力通通都拿掉說我不用派遣了改成承攬比派遣還更糟糕對公務體系也很糟糕對承攬人員來講也沒有好到哪裡去 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1026.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1049.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以我今天在這裡要跟你談的制度面的問題其中最重要一個就是說這個派遣派遣至少在這方面派遣人員還能夠幫如果這個同仁是用的是派遣或許這五個承攬人力變成五個派遣人力他可以指揮監督他還可以請他們協助或許他的工作壓力沒這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1052.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1059.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這麼久以來本來以為沒有派遣、零派遣是得正結果現在發現零派遣出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1061.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1084.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
對所以委員這也是為什麼我對他的直接督導他的副分署長資訊長以及他的秘書室主任我也予以懲處那你的人事主管為什麼沒有他們最接近他他們最接近他對人事主管為什麼沒有因為員工職場霸凌防自然處理建議作為裡面其中事件通報除了單位主管還有一個是人事主管你們人事主管為什麼沒有處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1085.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1088.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為1111人力銀行調查發現,超過83%的上班族在職場遇過霸凌,言語嘲諷佔了57%,背後重傷上播謠言佔了將近50%, |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1113.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1119.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
然後孤立他大概刻意排擠大概也是將近50%工作出處刁難46.8%然後這裡面加害者最常見的是只屬主管44.1還沒完喔最重要是女性遇到職場霸凌的比例顯然比男性高出15%那還不是重點我要講的重點是在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1137.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1140.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
被霸凌所任職的公司的產業別最高18.9%是傳產和製造業接下來12%、13%差不了多少的就是媒體出版業、工商業服務以及教育政府機關12.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1161.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1182.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以霸凌在公部門在教育部門在政府機關團體部門霸凌的比例根據1111的調查是12.6%幾乎幾乎就是雖然是第四名但是跟第二名第三名差不了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1183.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1187.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以這是 我覺得這是我們國家的恥辱啊怎麼國家的公務體系、部門、公務機關被霸凌的狀況這麼嚴重比民間還要更嚴重呢是不是有一種官場文化使然啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1204.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1222.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
而這種官場文化大家都習以為常都不思改進然後都覺得理所當然就像剛才署長一直覺得說我管理我的部署都是競責在要求競責沒有錯但是態度很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1223.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1246.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
管理也很重要但是溝通的能力也很重要是要這樣子我們知道所以這裡面需要檢討的我想派遣承蘭你們公部門你們負責管理這個職場霸凌的目的事業主管機關結果公部門裡面最嚴重最嚴重那公部門是人事總處嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1249.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1257.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那該怎麼做回去檢討那民間部門也很嚴重那整個個案的行政調查我們認為昨天調查的文字內容很多不妥然後許次長自以身為調查小組的趙吉仁跟謝一榮交情那麼好也難以服眾謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
157105 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157105 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-9 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-20T09:48:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-20T10:09:44+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |