| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408b45e1feab3b48b00cdd5a1250ef41c284ce663faeb1c4e2e3f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:50:50 - 12:58:57 |
| 影片長度 |
487 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。） |
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政務機關所長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們李主委。好,請李主委。主委好。主委好。對於我們今天內政委員審議的版本,包括羅智強版本,叫做公投綁大選,賴士寶的版本是對應處置。請問主委,你還記得我們上一次什麼時候辦過公投嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.685 |
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上次的公投應該就是2022年的修憲公投。你比我還記好,我都忘了修憲公投了。那你還記得2021年那個政策公投當中有哪些題目嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.081 |
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2021年有萊豬有藻礁有公投榜大學還有一個叫做什麼我們都寫在上面了啦還有一個合適的四個才不到三年的時間欸很多人都不記得我們2021年投過這四個票這四個案有通過嗎四個案子都沒有通過那通過的條件是不是要投票率超過四成 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
74.541 |
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80.969 |
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三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
95.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
118.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
新竹市喝好水污水處理的公投有過嗎?有嘛!他的投票也是4乘3嘛!因為中央公投4乘1但是他在4乘單當中同意的多於不同意的而且同意票多於怎樣?四分之一就是25%對不對?所以過了嘛!那過了有沒有做? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
148.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
155.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
170.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
189.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.561 |
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204.882 |
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為什麼我們人民的投票要把選舉罷免﹑對人的信任和對政策的選擇﹑對事的選擇的公投分開?我們避免這個議題的混淆希望選民能夠聚焦在他對事的一個看法﹑對人的一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
223.766 |
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246.474 |
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好,沒有錯,我們對人的選舉罷免是對這個行政首長的信任,要或不要,對不對?對於事情,我希望選擇哪一件事情,這是不太一樣的。就要比如說我們公司的餐廳,我請主廚來,大家來投票,決定一個主廚,四個月之後再來討論他做得好不好。但是呢,如果我要求主廚明天要出一道菜,叫做番茄炒蛋, |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
274.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那番茄炒蛋做出來好不好吃?有沒有做出番茄炒蛋?我是就這個事情來連結說這個主廚好不好,你覺得會不會有點過度的隱身過度了?我今天請你來當廚師,你廚藝好,我們員工吃得開心,但是宗家兵就說你沒能夠吃到番茄炒蛋,那你能不能做得出來?或者我吃得滿不滿意?來決定你這個廚師的去留,你覺得這樣會不會太過於牽強了? |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
299.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
沒有實際的案例。目前我們看到賴士葆嚴寬衡的案件他說權責機關這時候要提出辭職如果公投三個月準備提出必要之處置如果沒有做好就要辭職中選會能不能認定個別的個案他的權責機關我們考你一下往下看譬如說往下看公投榜大選請問這個權責機關是中選會行政院還是立法院這一題權責機關是誰能不能告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
306.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
333.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
法律的主管機關是中選會。法律的機關,所以如果這機關通過了沒有做就中選會下台。或者說2004強化國防,你認為他的選擇機關是國防部行政院還是總統?這個都牽涉到。都牽涉到。所以,如果我們要比照剛剛的案子,全職機關首長都搞不清楚了,再往下看。那怎麼樣我才滿意?我請你炒一個番茄炒蛋,沒有番茄沒有蛋你炒給我,你做得出來嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
346.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
365.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
387.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
415.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不只無法執行,還要逃避責任。如果國會多數對葛國瑜提出倒閣案、不信任案,過了,葛國瑜要不要下台?不信任通過了,可以倒閣嘛。那相對的,國會要不要解散?可能會被解散啊。這是憲法的機制嘛。又想要葛國瑜負責下台,又不想要國會被解散,這是什麼心態? |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
442.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
446.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
就是只要追究別人的責任逃避自己接受民意監督的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
447.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
448.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
逃避民意的監督。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
483.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
接下來請政天才委員政天才委員 |
| gazette.lineno |
1250 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：（12時50分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請李主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請李主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
李主任委員進勇：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：主委好。對於我們今天內政委員審議的版本，包括羅智強的版本叫做公投綁大選，賴士葆的版本是對應處置。請問主委，你還記得我們上一次什麼時候辦過公投嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
李主任委員進勇：上次的公投應該就是2022年的修憲公投。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：修憲公投，沒有過，你比我還記憶好，我都忘了修憲公投了。你還記得2021年那個政策公投當中有哪些題目嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
李主任委員進勇：2021年有萊豬，有藻礁，有公投綁大選，還有一個叫做什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：我都寫在簡報上面了。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
李主任委員進勇：還有一個核四，4個。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：你看看，才不到3年的時間耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
李主任委員進勇：4個案子。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：很多人都不記得我們在2021年投過這4個票。這4個案子有通過嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
李主任委員進勇：4個案子都沒有通過。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：通過的條件是不是要投票率超過四成，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
李主任委員進勇：就是要…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：投票率超過四成…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
李主任委員進勇：同意票要超過四分之一，而且同意的要多於…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：多於反對的，這次是因為反對多於同意，就沒有過嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：但是其中公投綁大選被否決了，表示2021年、3年前的民意是不同意公投綁大選嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
李主任委員進勇：結果是這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：是不同意嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以這是目前對於公投綁大選的最新民意嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：所以最新民意就是2021年人民反對公投綁大選。有人說公民投票很難通過，有沒有通過的案例？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
李主任委員進勇：也有通過。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：像什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
李主任委員進勇：在地方性的也有。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：好啦，2021年除了公投綁大選那4個中央提案之外，新竹市也有一個新竹市喝好水、污水處理的公投嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：有沒有過？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
李主任委員進勇：有過。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：有嘛，它的投票率是四成三（中央公投是四成一），但是在四成三當中，同意的多於不同意的，而且同意票多於四分之一，就是25%，對不對？所以過了嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：那過了，有沒有做？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
李主任委員進勇：這是新竹市政府…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：對，你有沒有聽過新竹市政府做了沒有？做了或沒有做？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我倒是沒有去追蹤。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：對嘛，一個公投案過了，結果多數人不知道到底市政府做了沒有。我們看一下，上次為什麼修法把公投綁大選脫鉤？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
李主任委員進勇：因為是在2018之後選務的改革。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：對，2018選務改革。如簡報上面寫了，當年選市長的人把競選文宣跟公投小抄並列，是不是這樣子？搞到後來競選文宣跟公投小抄並列的，有沒有當選？丁守中先生有沒有當選？沒有。他對外宣稱他是公投綁大選的受害者，有沒有聽過這樣的說法？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
李主任委員進勇：有聽過。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：有聽過嘛。當然，如果他是受害者，誰是受益者？當選的柯文哲市長，可以這樣推論嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我不予評論。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：不予評論。丁守中認為他是受害者，受益者是柯文哲。我們來看一下，為什麼我們人民的投票要把選舉罷免、對人的信任，和對政策的選擇、對事的選擇的公投分開來？為什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
李主任委員進勇：為了避免議題的混淆，希望選民能夠聚焦在他對事的看法、對人的選擇。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，我們對人的選舉罷免，是對這個行政首長的信任、要或不要，對不對？和對於事情、希望選擇哪一件事情不太一樣。就好比公司的餐廳請主廚來，大家來投票決定主廚，4個月之後再來討論他做得好不好，但是如果我要求主廚明天要出一道菜，叫做番茄炒蛋，番茄炒蛋做出來好不好吃、有沒有做出番茄炒蛋，我是就這個事情來連結這個主廚好不好，你覺得會不會有點引伸過度了？我今天請你來當廚師，你廚藝好，我們員工吃得開心，但是鍾佳濱要你明天給我出一道番茄炒蛋，用你能不能做得出來或是我吃得滿不滿意，來決定你這個廚師的去留，你覺得這樣會不會太過於牽強了？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
李主任委員進勇：沒有實際的案例。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：沒有實際的案例，好。目前我們看到賴士葆、顏寬恒的提案，規定權責機關之首長要提出辭職，如果公投3個月準備期後提出必要之處置沒有做好，就要辭職。中選會能不能認定個別個案的權責機關？我們考你一下，譬如公投綁大選的公投，請問這個權責機關是中選會、行政院，還是立法院？這一題權責機關是誰，能不能告訴我？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
李主任委員進勇：就法律的主管機關是中選會。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：法律的機關，所以如果這個提案通過了，沒有做，就中選會下臺？或者2004年強化國防公投，你認為它的權責機關是國防部、行政院，還是總統？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
李主任委員進勇：都有牽涉到。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：都牽涉到。所以如果我們要比照剛剛的案子，權責機關首長是誰，搞都搞不清楚。怎麼樣我才滿意？我請你炒一個番茄炒蛋，沒有番茄、沒有蛋，你炒給我，你做得出來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
李主任委員進勇：做不出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：做不出來呀，所以你沒有做出我要的番茄炒蛋，你就要辭職。我們來看一下，2008重返聯合國的公投，要申請重返聯合國、加入其他國際組織，如果在3個月內提出，做不到，是誰要下臺？按照他們的版本的話，你覺得是立法院要下臺，還是行政院長要下臺，還是總統要下臺？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
李主任委員進勇：會混淆。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：會混淆。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
李主任委員進勇：權責會混淆。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：但是我們有沒有機制來撤換閣揆？有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
李主任委員進勇：那是另外的…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：對，另外一個機制。有沒有機制撤換總統？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
李主任委員進勇：當然有。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：有，我們可以罷免或彈劾總統，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：我們也可以對行政院長提出不信任案、倒閣，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：如果認為行政院長該負責，可不可以發動不信任投票？可以嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
李主任委員進勇：嗯。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：如果你認為這個是該總統負責的，出來彈劾或罷免總統，可不可以？可以提嘛，會不會過是其次。所以如果對一個重要的政策不滿意，不管政府有沒有做，要究責的對象，針對行政院長有沒有機制？有嘛。針對總統有沒有機制？有嘛，那為什麼沒辦法跟公投綁在一起呢？你覺得為什麼在野黨提出這個說法呢？為什麼要用公投的決定來綁一個首長的去留，你覺得是什麼原因？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
李主任委員進勇：這個是無法執行的。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：不只無法執行，是要逃避責任。如果國會多數對閣揆提出倒閣案、不信任案過了，閣揆要不要下臺？不信任案通過了，可以倒閣嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：相對地，國會要不要解散？可能會被解散啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
李主任委員進勇：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：這是憲法的機制嘛。又想要閣揆負責下臺，又不想要國會被解散，這是什麼心態？就是只要追究別人的責任，卻逃避自己接受民意的監督嘛。所以說到後來，我們認為今天如果再提出新的公投法，要公投綁大選，這是明明白白違背了3年前全民的民意。如果公投的結果要作成對於總統或行政院長的去留決定，我覺得這樣的提案者是逃避自己的政治責任、迴避民意的監督，你可以接受嗎？你同意嗎？我這樣的說法，你可以接受嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
李主任委員進勇：我尊重委員的意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
主席：接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][1] |
請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][2] |
請陳俊宇委員，請陳俊宇委員，陳俊宇委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][3] |
請黃國昌委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
120 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-15-7 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張宏陸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
黃捷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
吳琪銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
丁學忠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-11-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1139301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1139301_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬
具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分
條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」
案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1139301_00001 |
| IVOD_ID |
156442 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156442 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-15-7 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-04T12:50:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-04T12:58:57+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |