| IVOD_ID |
156313 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156313 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-19-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-30T11:50:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-30T11:59:52+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade5e50a3e4383e11d4b22eacfd31272a3df293381db574b3e9235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:50:44 - 11:59:52 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國對設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估，及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢。） |
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賴士葆委員質詢。謝謝主席一起更深近。有請經濟部的郭部長。請郭部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
23.264 |
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跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
73.63 |
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我會很快的回答就第一個我非常清楚這件事情如果是真的那麼他要進來會用這麼多的綠電他光是要成立這樣的一個機構相信一定要兩年以上這是第一個假設 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
75.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
101.877 |
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二、根據我們現在綠電目前在進行的這個創電的這些案子我們非常清楚的到2026年我們會有550億度的綠電根據這兩個基本的狀況我很快的就可以回應他我記得感覺是你是這個企業 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
105.244 |
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難道委員你認為這個會有問題嗎我這樣的假設會有問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
119.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
122.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
臺積電要多少的綠電?臺積電要多少的綠電?現在多少?現在大概佔我們的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
150.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
165.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
目前他是逐步在買啦報告委員他是逐步在買綠電啦那至於現在綠電幾乎全部給台積電了不是嗎台積電最大客戶啊大概七成啦現在啊不是你知道如委員所指教的是沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
167.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
190.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
大部分都是他。他大概用我們的綠電現在七成以上。七成以上啊!有人講到九成啊!七成是那個民間出去的部分,其實台電手上還有一些綠電,那個都還沒有出去啦。那個量還有...部長,你昨天來這裡你提到一個數字,我嚇一跳。你說現在再次民營佔了16%。這數字對不對啊?是十月。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
223.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們怎麼看你都是11%?16%是要在講哪一天或者是哪一段?不能講說這個16%是什麼?我們那一天在講的是10月22號那個我們的分母跟分子是不一樣的10月22號當天的分母是台電系統的供應量 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
228.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
但是當天的這個根據這個呢他的再生能源佔比是16% |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
230.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
256.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
如果大家在討論的9.5%那他的分母是全國供應量我想這個是分母跟分子之間的關係大家笑不要都說你現在正式免費的16%我是奇怪我從來沒有看過這個數字怎麼會變16%勒阿你也不澄清一下來請教委員部長那個命題不一樣我是不是請我能源署跟你報告一下不要不要這個我時間有限來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
261.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
報告委員對於這個美國現在還在選舉在選舉的過程裡面我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
282.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
286.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
川普在美國講的時候全美國上億的人口在看他這個數字你講的時候包括佐隆泰院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
報告委員我們跟美國之間的關係是非常好我想這個你也非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
356.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在選舉的時候選舉的人所講的話我們在這個時候選舉還沒有結束之前我們不應該針對這個問題去給予這個下一些定論這個是我們的看法不過你們在這裡講的是對啊你應該要強調向美國人強調我們沒有偷你的未來如果有人在講未來如果有人我們要看那個影響是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
賴士葆 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
382.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我馬上再給我一點點時間我馬上講完了來我們看到今天的另外一個題目SRFSRF他很清楚的看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
402.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
立方、可惠、可林惠、立江這三家公司他用發電廠的名利申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
437.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他沒有進到環保園區環保園區可以不做環評結果這三家要做環評他沒有做環評結果你們我看整個報告 喔喔你都偶遇到這樣喔SRF多少賺多少賺看其他國家其他國家你要燒木材你這個燒有會產生有耐耗性的這個塑膠什麼對環保產生很大的影響就這個情況結果我們再看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
438.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
459.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
結果,原來你都說不准,政府參議員說不准,後來呢,美國介入了,你們就推薦了。好了,我的重點在這裡,彰化縣,仰寶石業後製桃園的牧師,也做SRF,也不經過環評。所以我就是問你一件事情,特別是環境部的掌櫃在這裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
460.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
488.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這些廠不管做什麼的SRF要不要做環評?要不要?跟委員報告桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面他本身有個總量環評是要符合進廠的標準沒有沒有他沒有進環保園區進環保園區才不需要做環評桃科工本身是有環評跟委員報告桃科工本身有一個總的環評所以只要進這個廠符合入園的標準長襪為什麼可以不做環評就要不要做環評? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
489.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
507.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我跟委員報告,SRF廠要不要做環評,要依照它的區位規模來判定,都要符合。那需要環評的就一定要環評,免環評就不用環評,但是環保相關法規都必須要遵守。那郭副長,我就是再問你一次,有關於SRF這個的一個申請,你現在變成是鼓勵喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
514.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們這個SRF是這個國際的一個趨勢我們沒有什麼鼓勵國際趨勢人家燒木材我們燒塑膠所以一定要通過這個環境部的這個要求我們根據這個法令的這個規範來進行我就是跟你強調他們要做這些東西對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF要做環評OK就這個我的要求 |
| gazette.lineno |
902 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（11時50分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請經濟部郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
賴委員士葆：部長，你好。昨天在我們院會張委員的詢答中詢問NVIDIA如果跟你要100億度電的事，你很快（沒有花到1秒鐘）、反應非常快說沒有問題。請問你那時候憑什麼講這個？你到底心裡怎麼想？你有準備嗎？你知道情況怎麼樣嗎？你要不要講一下那時候的反應為什麼這麼快？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我會很快地回答，第一是因為我非常清楚這件事情如果是真的，它要進來、真的會用這麼多綠電，光是要成立這樣的機構，相信一定要兩年以上，這是第一個假設。第二，根據目前綠電在進行的這些創電案，我們非常清楚到2026年會有550億度綠電。根據這兩個基本的狀況，我很快地就可以回應他沒有問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
賴委員士葆：外界的感覺是你以企業老闆的心態表達，你要什麼？沒問題，你來就好。感覺是這個樣子，就是怎麼會這麼快、馬上說沒有問題？好吧！你既然說了…… |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
郭部長智輝：難道委員認為這個會有問題嗎？我這樣的假設會有問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
賴委員士葆：你要知道，那其他廠商怎麼辦呢？你只有給他，台積電也要；其他廠商也要，還有其他廠商啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
郭部長智輝：對於台積電要用多少電、所有要用綠電的廠商，我們都非常地清楚，也都有聯絡…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
賴委員士葆：請問你，台積電要多少綠電？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
郭部長智輝：什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
賴委員士葆：台積電要多少綠電？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
郭部長智輝：台積電要用多少綠電？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
賴委員士葆：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
郭部長智輝：台積電所用的電都要綠電。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：現在多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
郭部長智輝：現在大概占我們的…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
王總經理耀庭：報告委員，目前它是逐步在買綠電啦！至於…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
賴委員士葆：現在綠電幾乎全部給台積電了，不是嗎？台積電是最大客戶，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
王總經理耀庭：大概七成。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
賴委員士葆：難道不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
郭部長智輝：現在就如委員所指教的，沒有錯，大部分都是它。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
賴委員士葆：它是大客戶，對不對？占幾個百分點？占綠電幾個百分點？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
郭部長智輝：它現在用我們的綠電大概七成以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
賴委員士葆：七成以上？有人講到九成耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
王總經理耀庭：七成是指從民間電廠出去的部分，其實台電手上還有一些綠電，那個部分都還沒有出去啦！那個量還有…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
賴委員士葆：部長，你昨天在這裡提到一個數字，令我嚇一跳！你說現在再生能源占了16%，這個數字對不對啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
郭部長智輝：我不知道…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
賴委員士葆：我們怎麼看都是11%、12%，怎麼會有16%？怎麼跑來16%？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
郭部長智輝：委員，16%是要再講哪一天或哪一段，不能講16%是什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
賴委員士葆：你講現在啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們那天在講的…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
賴委員士葆：昨天講現在。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
郭部長智輝：是10月22日，分母跟分子是不一樣的，10月22日當天的分母是台電系統的供應量，根據這個，再生能源的占比是16%，如果是大家在討論的9.5%，那麼它的分母是全國供應量…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊！都不到10%，是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
郭部長智輝：這是分母跟分子之間的關係，也就是時間…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
賴委員士葆：大家下標都是你說現在再生能源占16%，所以我覺得奇怪，我從來沒有看過這個數字，怎麼會變成16%呢？你也不澄清一下。把它講清楚。部長，請教…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
郭部長智輝：因為命題不一樣，我是不是請能源署跟您報告一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
賴委員士葆：不要、不要，我時間有限。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][1] |
部長，針對川普，他現在民調節節上升，他講了一句話，說臺灣偷了他們的晶片產業。你昨天回答得很好，你講什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，美國現在還在選舉，在選舉過程裡面，我們不會評論這樣的…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有評論？你昨天在這裡已經講啦！你說不接受、不同意啊！你不是這樣講嗎？你當然要表態啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
郭部長智輝：你是說他說我們偷了…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
賴委員士葆：對啊！說我們偷了他們…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
郭部長智輝：對，我昨天講，我們當然不同意啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那我就告訴你，川普在美國講的時候，全美國有上億人口都在看他這個數字；但你講的、也包括卓榮泰院長講的，美國人不知道啊！美國人都接受那個概念，說我們偷了他們的晶片產業。請問，你有沒有想過透過外交的力量？或者應該去美國打廣告，把這件事跟美國人講清楚，美國是我們這麼重要的政經夥伴。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們跟美國之間的關係非常好，我想這點你也非常清楚。在選舉的時候，對於選舉的人所講的話，在這個時候、選舉還沒有結束之前，我們不應該針對這個問題下定論啦！這是我們的看法，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
賴委員士葆：不過你們在這裡講的對啊！你應該向美國人強調「我們沒有偷你們的啊！怎麼會偷你們的？要大聲講啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
郭部長智輝：未來如果有人再講，我們要看影響是什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
賴委員士葆：影響？對科技界的影響？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
郭部長智輝：如果影響到我們的市場運作，那我們當然會出來努力啦！但是如果只是說笑，我們也沒必要為了一個笑話…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
賴委員士葆：你認為他是說笑？他會變成政策，他如果當選，會變成政策喔！比如說對臺灣的晶片課稅。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
郭部長智輝：我想，你也非常清楚啦！要形成一個政策，中間要經過非常多討論，大家要做非常多的彼此了解。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
賴委員士葆：好。再給我一點點時間，我馬上講完。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][1] |
我們看今天的另一個題目SRF。關於SRF，我們很清楚地看得到立方、可寧衛、立疆這三家公司用發電廠的名義申請，他們沒有進到環保園區，進環保園區可以不做環評，這三家公司要做環評，卻沒有做環評，結果我看了整個報告，你們對SRF讚不絕口，還看其他國家，但其他國家是燒木材，這幾家是燒會產生戴奧辛的塑膠，對環保產生很大的影響。基於這個情況，原本你們都不准，鄭文燦原來說不准，後來美國介入，你們就推薦了！我的重點在這裡，彰化縣揚堡實業複製桃園的模式，也做SRF，也不經過環評，所以我就問你一件事情，特別是環境部的長官也在這裡，這些廠不管是做什麼的SRF，要不要作環評？要不要？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
沈次長志修：跟委員報告，桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面，該區本身有總量環評，只要符合進場標準，就可以…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有，他們沒有進環保園區，進環保園區才不須要做環評，在科技園區都要。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
沈次長志修：跟委員報告，桃科工本身有總的環評，所以只要進駐廠商符合入園標準…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
賴委員士葆：那彰化呢？彰化呢？彰化呢？彰化為什麼可以不做環評就…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
沈次長志修：要不要做環評…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
賴委員士葆：它不用做啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
沈次長志修：我跟委員報告，SRF廠要不要做環評要依照區位、規模判定，都要符合，須要環評的就一定要環評，免環評的就不用環評，但環保相關法規都必須遵守。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
賴委員士葆：郭部長，我再問你一次，關於SRF的申請，你們現在變成鼓勵喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
郭部長智輝：SRF是國際趨勢，我們沒有什麼鼓勵…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
賴委員士葆：國際趨勢？人家燒木材，我們燒塑膠，你還這樣講！ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
郭部長智輝：所以一定要通過…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
賴委員士葆：環評啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
郭部長智輝：環境部的要求嘛！我們是根據法令規範進行。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
賴委員士葆：我就是在跟你強調，他們要做這些東西，對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF，要做環評！OK，要這樣要求。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
主席：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][1] |
請蘇巧慧委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
314 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-19-9 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
233 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-30 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1139102 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1139102_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國
對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1139102_00004 |