| IVOD_ID |
156270 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156270 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-19-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-30T10:12:51+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-30T10:27:39+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:48 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adee049b2dc8e6be666b22eacfd31272a3d03045fce0cf86b0f277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:12:51 - 10:27:39 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國對設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估，及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢。） |
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請阿保定請郭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.487 |
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31.736 |
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委員好 |
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34.844 |
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市長,早安。早安。市長,我問你防震室的事。是。問你說它要一百億的綠電。是。你秒答喔。是。秒答馬上就答了。保持很好。不是保持很好啦。是我們就有那個量在的嘛。喔,有那個量齁。現在問題是,我也很希望回答趕快到臺灣社長啦。不過今天媒體的反應很多,就是講說,你會不會畫大餅或者畫餅衝擊。 |
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62.36 |
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85.118 |
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所以我們今天 我知道你起碼在市外 你有把握嘛 對不對這個跟氣魄沒關係啦 我是就事論事啦 不知道的人 他要說這樣我也沒辦法 因為每個人的角度 跟每個人的認知 不會一樣所以我現在同情的就是 最重要就是我們說到做到嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.179 |
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103.301 |
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當然啦!當然啦!我們得說到做到嘛!所以我們今天很明確的來做!國務部長要給揮打的一百億度的綠電要從哪裡來?那要具體啊!是啊!對不對?我們今天就來討論要怎麼做嘛!我們把步驟先列一下好不好?有具體的計畫跟時程才不會被外面笑說你是 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
104.326 |
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104.946 |
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這是王陽明12歲所寫的詩 |
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129.721 |
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158.917 |
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就是這樣啊 大家各就各不一樣看一個事實 不能這樣說我是畫大餅所以你要認證說你做得到不是畫大餅嘛來 那我們就具體問你怎麼樣才不是畫大餅嘛幾個步驟至少要做啦 部長等一下我跟你講第一個你要達成這個事情 第一個步驟要做總要聯絡黃仁勳嘛因為委員你剛才在問說黃仁勳說的嘛但是就我們的資料黃仁勳沒有說要一百億度嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.987 |
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172.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
有啦有啦,這個是媒體見了好幾次報的嘛OK那沒關係,那你認為他要多少?沒有,那OK,那你沒有,做第一個動作嘛,不定,不定,做第一個動作那你不管他要多少度的電,他總是要回來嘛對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
173.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個我們知道的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
203.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
不,要一個時程表例如說一個禮拜趕快去跟他聯絡好不好你聯絡他,所以你是不是給他回應說我們跟世界大廠都有聯絡,要一個評語嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
215.099 |
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233.326 |
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這個報告委員,國際的大公司都有他的海外的這個時程,我想這點你應該是非常清楚啦,其實這個要牽扯到他的這個有些策略啦,策略你把時間都講夠了,我們當然是硬盲一盪啦,委員我跟他是朋友沒有錯啦,但是我們不能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
243.837 |
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245.659 |
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我們答應他就是投資的幾個要素 |
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263.715 |
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274.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
投資幾個要素但其中有一部分就是人力的問題人力的問題我們還在跟他溝通啦人力啦那當然電通重要啦來那我問你你昨天講了一個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
275.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
283.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你說你綠電是可以給他的嘛對不對綠電我昨天提醒你喔我講是綠電喔所以我今天跟委員重新報告一次2026年我們經濟部的綠電是可以發出550億度這個不要畫大餅這個馬上就看得到來來來柏丁我先問你這個這樣好我請台電來這裡你的目標2026你說500億我問你現在多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
305.331 |
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307.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們在講說500,那個是我們的計畫,2026年嘛,而且我跟委員報告,就是說時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
326.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
335.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就是even這個輝達他現在來臺灣投資也不會馬上要一百億度啦我想這個你應該很清楚嘛你現在手上有的現在的綠電多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
343.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
365.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你昨天講說兩百億嘛兩百多億度 兩百六十八億捏是啊他們要的電很多 第二個所以兩個問題嘛 第一個你現在才兩百六十八 你說你兩年後變五百五百五十你的你的撐竿跳是不是啦不是 委員 這是第一個 第二個 第二個委員 你這樣講說 我昨天有特別跟你報告過了齁這一個電的多少增量 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
366.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
390.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
沒有線性關係,沒有線性關係,每個時間走,要看多少,這是時間走所產生的總量,所以沒有線性關係,這個我昨天也跟你報告過了。你兩年後達到這個目標,而且老實講現在是困難的,不然你我提醒一下,各地現在那個光電,太陽能光電,現在抗爭不斷,像我自己人,一個大山的大坡, |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
392.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
392.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
來來來,還有一個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
441.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我相信你很關心我啦,所以你會煩惱說我會跳票,我真的謝謝啦,這是你好朋友齁,我知道你關心我我再問一件很重要的事,就是黃誠心趕快回來,回答趕快回來,這個你要趕快去解決問題第二個昨天也有一個很嚴重的問題,來,我給你看一下我們沒有整個綠電啊,像我在質詢,你看我笑成這樣你知道我在笑什麼?像卓榮泰卓院長竟然說我們的綠電現在佔比所有發電的16% |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
445.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
458.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在嗎?我到2030年...2030年的時候我們會到30%嗎?你現在說現在16%?他說不白了嗎?是不是口誤?現在多少?現在我們第一電你知道現在268一度嘛對不對?知道嘛對不對?才12%那現在是佔我們的總電量的多少?我可以回答嗎?我可以請台電...那等一下我要求時間要久一點喔來來來,我回聲你答 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
475.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
492.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那個委員昨天的院長報告裡面寫的是這樣因為要我們回答說河山二號機在大修大修的時候我們這幾天來再生能源的比例是怎樣所以我們就照著題目的規格答說這幾天再生能源的比例大概16% |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
500.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他有兩種統計方式因為你問了一個這樣子的問題如果你要問整年整年的話去年大概10%還沒到那我們接下來的話狀況是這樣今年開始併網的離岸風電會越來越多現在併了超過2.7個GIGA |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
518.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
陸續會併一直到二五二六其實最大的增量會是在這一個地方所以現在第一個有抗爭我跟你講你那個併不併而成或者是這是第一個問題昨天到底昨天是不是院長信口開河我不要說他八十七喔你昨天是在旁邊的喔你昨天站在旁邊你沒有幫他拿錢對不對我們現在的綠電沒有占我們的發電的總量的16%答案應該是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
546.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
559.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有幾種可能嗎?昨天是首長口誤第二個是你們提供舊的資料、臭的資料阿第三個重點是?報告委員這個可能是我們是針對你所問的那個問題來回答啦阿現在就沒有16%我們台灣當時綠電已經到了電量來來來我給大家看答案來來來你要跟我爭辯這個來我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
575.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
576.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
在去年啦我們的總發電量是2823億度對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
581.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
603.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
綠電佔多少?再生能源佔多少?9.5%嘛!這是古年的,文生力道說的嘛!對不對?去年不到10%、9.5%好,我用最新的喔!用最新的!看右邊這個圖今年到目前為止,1到8月用1月到8月的這個最新資料1922億度我們再生能源多少?10.5欸!阿10.5張在國會殿堂對著我們講說我們已經不是10.5公16% |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
614.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我跟你講我還特別去看了你們最近這幾天的啦到16的也非常少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
638.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以這個有問題,我告訴你沒有問題,第一個我記得我們對全民是要交代清楚,第一,國務院長在立法院在國務院長有沒有講錯話,不要說他白白的,可是他如果資料有問題你們要很清楚跟他,第一,你要跟議員長講,第一,去年只有綠電在深圳只有9.5%,今年到8月只有10.5%,到目前為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
663.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
665.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
報告委員您講的都是對的但是我們所引述的資料跟有一些不一樣所以這個是在大家論述的點不太一樣您也是對的我們院長也是對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
687.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
705.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你那天你回去查一下我再問他那天是16號你如果說用這個圖來那個月裡面只有颱風來那幾天有超過16大部分都沒有16欸沒有不要爭辯讓證據講話分母不一樣啦分母不一樣大家引述的資料的分母不一樣那現在最重要保定我剛剛這個質詢很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
707.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
730.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是你的綠電老蔣是不過的那你要去那邊找綠電這個第一個你趕快去跟黃仁堅談趕快叫他你剛剛講嘛人力嘛電我們幫忙趕快讓他回來全台灣都希望嘛對不對阿第二個你要弄清楚他的綠電到底有多少你能夠給他多少第三個你的電力你這個綠電不過你要從哪邊來現在有人在笑你阿你弄到後來怎麼樣真的要嘛你有新的技術嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
731.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
732.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
其實黃澄清說的是三部曲 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
德雷他說先說要100億度的電第二個一公尺就這句話他說核能是最理想的能源他還講了一句話他說核能也是綠電你去查這個都是有資料可循的所以你現在還有一條活路啊你不用到菲律賓去買電回來啊你用核能就可以啦我跟你講昨天為什麼會出現院長這個錯我現在可以另外一個可能性回到上個圖我給大家看一下你有沒有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
784.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
801.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
一到八月份再生能源綠電十點五對不對如果加上左邊那個核能五點四趴剛好就是十六了你不是心裡認為把核能也認為綠電可以用嗎你把這個加起來就是十六現在不管是不是故意或者是無意我跟你講好好用核能黃誠心都這樣講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
803.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
807.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
謝謝委員最後我問一件事情張你跟院長要爭執一個東西你說啊大家都用RE100你知道嗎現在大家更流行的是什麼已經到了全時無碳電力了就是CFE |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
833.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
861.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
當初RE100連那個創始的會員國會員的最大企業亞馬遜現在都退出了他都已經加入CFE了CFE現在有多少?微軟、三菱、電機、Google都是亞馬遜現在都進來了更重要的他是官方的他是聯合國能源組織攜手25家以上的大的企業跟組織共同倡議的他都認為核能要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
863.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
863.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好,謝謝。 |
| gazette.lineno |
374 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（10時13分）請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請郭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
郭部長智輝：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長早。昨天我們問你黃仁勳的事情，問你說他要100億度綠電，你秒答喔！馬上就答了，氣魄很好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
郭部長智輝：不是氣魄很好啦！是我們就有那個量在嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在問題是我也很希望輝達趕快到臺灣設廠，不過今天媒體的反應很多，就是說你會不會畫大餅或者畫餅充飢？我知道你氣魄好之外，你有把握嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
郭部長智輝：這個跟氣魄沒關係，我是就事論事啦！不知道的人，他要講這樣，我也沒辦法，因為每個人的角度跟每個人的認知不會一樣，所以我是這樣講…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啦，現在最重要的就是我們說到做到嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
郭部長智輝：當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
張委員啓楷：對，我們就是說到做到嘛！所以我們今天很明確的來說，郭部長要給輝達的100億度綠電要從哪裡來？那要具體啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
郭部長智輝：是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
張委員啓楷：對不對？我們今天就來討論要怎麼做，我們把步驟先列一下，好不好？有具體的計畫跟時程，才不會被外面笑說你是畫大餅、畫餅充飢啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
郭部長智輝：委員，我可不可以跟你討論這個問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
郭部長智輝：可以跟你討論畫大餅這個問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，來，你請說。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
郭部長智輝：「山近月遠覺月小，便道此山大於月。若人有眼大如天，當見山高月更闊。」這是王陽明12歲所寫的詩，就是這樣，大家看一個事實的角度不一樣，不能這樣就說我是畫大餅。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
張委員啓楷：對，所以你要印證你做得到，而不是畫大餅。來，我就具體問你怎麼樣才不是畫大餅。部長，幾個步驟至少要做，第一個，你要達成這個事情，總要聯絡黃仁勳嘛…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
郭部長智輝：因為委員剛才說是黃仁勳說的，但就我們的資料，黃仁勳沒有說要100億度。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
張委員啓楷：有啦！有啦！這個在媒體見了好幾次報。OK，沒有關係，那你認為他要多少？部長，不管他要多少度電，他總是要回來，對不對？但電不夠，怎麼回來？所以第一個動作、具體動作，你總要聯絡他，對不對？第一個，他開口要回來。第二個，你一定是歡迎他回來，對不對？你昨天不是跟我講，經濟部跟世界每個大廠都有聯絡，而且你們本來就是朋友，應該很容易聯絡上，對不對？因為全臺灣都希望他回來，所以第一個動作是趕快聯絡，弄清楚需要多少電，然後趕快幫他，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
郭部長智輝：這個我們知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
張委員啓楷：請給我時程表，例如一個禮拜內會趕快跟他聯絡，好不好？你昨天不是拍胸脯跟我說跟世界大廠都有聯絡，而且他跟你還是朋友？好啦！聯絡這個事情我不定時間…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，國際大公司都有他們的海外時程，我想這點你應該也非常清楚，而且這會牽扯到他們公司的一些策略，在策略上，如果你把他們的時間都公告…… |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
張委員啓楷：到底你有沒有希望他回來？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們當然是希望他回來啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
張委員啓楷：希望，那麼就要努力啊！你是經濟部長，又跟他是好朋友，臺灣這麼需要，你當然要去爭取。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
郭部長智輝：委員，我跟他是朋友沒有錯，但是我們不能夠公開他太多的前瞻策略，坦白講，經營你也很清楚，經營上面有很多的…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
張委員啓楷：不是，部長，你的意思是他不回來，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
郭部長智輝：他不會不回來啦！但是回來…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊！而且更重要的是人民跟你都希望他回來，對臺灣的經濟是好的…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們答應他就是投資的幾個要素，但其中有一部分是人力問題，人力的問題我們還在跟他溝通。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
張委員啓楷：人力啦！當然電最重要啦！來，我問你，你昨天講了一個很重要的點，你說綠電可以給他，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
郭部長智輝：啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
張委員啓楷：綠電，我昨天提醒你…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
郭部長智輝：是啊！是綠電，我講的是綠電喔！我今天跟委員重新報告一次，2026年經濟部的綠電可以發出550億度…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
張委員啓楷：這個不要畫大餅，馬上就看得到。來！部長，我先問你…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
郭部長智輝：這樣好了，我請台電來跟你…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張委員啓楷：等一下、等一下，部長，我先問你，你的目標2026年是500億，請問現在多少？你現在手上……總經理，你現在不要教他啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
郭部長智輝：260、260…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張委員啓楷：文生，你先不要講。部長，你不知道我們現在的綠電多少？你不知道，昨天卻跟我說足夠？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們現在講的500，那是我們2026年的計畫，而且我跟委員報告，在時間點上，even輝達現在來臺灣投資，也不會馬上要100億度，我想這個你應該也很清楚，他還要蓋廠房…… |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
張委員啓楷：我同意啦！是陸陸續續給，可是部長，你現在要先弄清楚你手上有多少綠電？請問你現在手上有的綠電是多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
郭部長智輝：你昨天講200億…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張委員啓楷：268億…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
郭部長智輝：是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
張委員啓楷：但他要的電很多，所以兩個問題，第一個，現在才268，你說兩年後變500…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
郭部長智輝：550。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是會撑竿跳嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
郭部長智輝：不是，委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
張委員啓楷：這是第一個，第二個…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
郭部長智輝：委員，我昨天有特別跟你報告過，電的多少增量是沒有線性關係，沒有線性關係…… |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
張委員啓楷：很快就見真章。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
郭部長智輝：每個時間點做的可以發電多少，這是時間軸所產生的總量，所以沒有線性關係，這個我昨天跟你報告過了…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
張委員啓楷：你連目前有多少都不清楚，而且兩年後要達到這個目標，老實講是有困難的，部長，我提醒你，現在各地太陽能光電抗爭不斷，我是嘉義人，嘉義山裡的大埔、海邊的布袋都在抗議，連雲林縣長張麗善都跟你講了，她說如果你們的標準不定清楚，她也不敢批，因為批了可能就要被抓去關起來！第一個，現在是268，兩年要跳到500，這是很離譜的事。第二個，現在各地抗爭不斷，你說達得到，好，沒關係，反正很快見真章…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我知道你非常關心我啦…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
張委員啓楷：還有一個很重要的問題，來！還有一個很重要…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
郭部長智輝：我相信你很關心我，所以擔心我會跳票，我知道啦！謝謝啦！你是好朋友，我知道你關心我。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，第一個就是黃仁勳趕快回來、輝達趕快回來，這個你要趕快去解決。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
郭部長智輝：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，昨天有一個很嚴重的問題，你看一下，昨天我在質詢綠電時，你看我笑成這樣，你知道我笑什麼嗎？昨天卓榮泰院長竟然說我們的綠電現在占比是所有發電的16%！ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
郭部長智輝：現在嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
張委員啓楷：對，我們昨天質詢…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們到2030…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
張委員啓楷：你看這邊，昨天質詢時，你站在院長旁邊喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
郭部長智輝：到2030年的時候，會到30%。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
張委員啓楷：不用2030，他是說現在，現在是16%，他說錯了嗎？是不是口誤？現在是多少？部長，你知道我們現在綠電…… |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
郭部長智輝：12%嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
張委員啓楷：你知道現在是268億度，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
郭部長智輝：差不多是12%啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
張委員啓楷：知道嘛，對不對？那現在是占我們總電量多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
曾董事長文生：我可以回答嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
郭部長智輝：我可以請台電…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
張委員啓楷：那等一下我會要求時間要久一點。來！文生你答。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
曾董事長文生：委員，昨天院長的報告裡寫的是這樣，因為是要我們回答核三2號機大修時的這幾天，再生能源的比率多少，所以我們就照著題目規格回答這幾天再生能源的比率大概是16%。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
張委員啓楷：這幾天？他說現在16%，但其實我們現在多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
曾董事長文生：這有兩種統計方式，因為你問了一個這樣的問題，但如果是問整年，去年大概10%不到，接下來的狀況是從今年開始，併網的離岸風電會越來越多，現在併了超過2.7GW，會陸續併網，一直到25、26，其實最大的增量會是在這個地方。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講，現在第一個問題是有抗爭，那個併不併得成，或者是……這是第一個問題。第二個，部長，這件事情很重要，昨天院長是不是信口開河？我不要說他是「白賊七」，但你昨天就站在旁邊，你沒有馬上提醒他，對不對？我們現在的綠電並沒有占發電總量的16%，答案應該是多少？有幾種可能，第一個是卓院長口誤。第二個是你們提供舊的資料、錯的資料。第三個最重要，部長你昨天在旁邊，你應該…… |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個可能是針對你所問的那個問題來回答…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在就沒有16%，什麼時候我們臺灣的綠電已經到了……文生，你先不要說，我給大家看答案。來！你要跟我爭辯這個，我們看一下，去年我們的總發電量是2,823億度，對不對？綠電占多少？再生能源占多少？9.5%嘛！這是去年的資料，就是文生你剛才說的，對不對？去年不到10%，是9.5%。好，我用最新的資料，你看右邊這個圖，今年到目前為止，用1到8月這個最新資料，是1,922億度，再生能源多少？部長，10.5%，10.5%欸！但昨天院長在國會殿堂對我們講的不是10.5%，而是16%，灌水灌得太多了吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，這是分子分母的問題，您這邊講的是以一年365天的總發電量跟再生能源比，但昨天的報告是以10月20號當天24小時的發電量跟再生能源比，分子分母不一樣，所以結果也會不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講，我還特別去看最近這幾天的資料，到16%的也非常少，所以這個有問題，第一個，我覺得我們對全民要交代清楚…… |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
郭部長智輝：時間不一樣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
張委員啓楷：第一，卓院長在立法院、在國會殿堂有沒有講錯話？不要說他是「白賊七」，可是如果他的資料有問題，你們要很清楚告訴他，第一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
郭部長智輝：不是，我們大家所爭議的…… |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，你要跟院長講，去年綠電、再生能源只有9.5%，今年1到8月只有10.5%，到目前為止，也不可能是16%，這個灌水太嚴重，要趕快更正，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，您講的都是對的，但我們所引述的資料跟你有一些不一樣，我們說的是那天嘛！就是你問的那天的比率，而你說的是整年度，大家論述的點不太一樣，所以你是對的，我們院長也是對的。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
張委員啓楷：你回去查一下，我問他的那天是16%…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
郭部長智輝：如果你用這個圖來…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
張委員啓楷：我看那個月，只有颱風來那幾天有超過16…… |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
郭部長智輝：不是啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
張委員啓楷：大部分都沒有，不要爭辯，讓證據講話，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
郭部長智輝：分母不一樣啦！大家引述的資料分母不一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
張委員啓楷：好啦！現在最重要的是，我剛剛的質詢很重要，就是你們的綠電是不夠的，你要去哪裡找綠電？第一個，你要趕快去跟黃仁勳談，就是你剛剛講的人力、電力，我們要幫忙，趕快讓他回來，全臺灣都希望嘛！對不對？第二個，你要弄清楚綠電到底有多少，你能夠給他多少？第三個，綠電不夠，你要從哪邊來？現在有人在笑你啊！你弄到後來變成怎麼樣？要嘛你要有新的技術，但是就像我講的，現在國內抗爭這麼多，一下增加太多也不可能。現在有人在笑你啊！你真的要去菲律賓買電回來給他用嗎？這些你都要回答喔！你先弄清楚有多少電，要不然人家都笑你說弄到後來是真的只能去買電了。我跟你講，還有解決方案，除了去菲律賓買電之外。昨天你們一直在推翻核能，其實黃仁勳說的是三部曲，第一個他先說要100億度的電。第二個他說什麼？就是這句話，他說核能是最理想的能源；他還講了一句話，他說核能也是綠電。你去查，這個都是有資料可循的，所以你現在還有一條活路，你不用到菲律賓去買電回來，你用核能就可以了啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[92][1] |
我跟你講，昨天為什麼會出現院長這個錯誤，我覺得還有另外一個可能性，回到上一個圖，我給大家看一下，你有沒有發現1到8月份再生能源綠電占10.5%對不對？如果加上左邊那個核能5.4%，剛好就是16%了，你們是心裡把核能也認為綠電可以用！你把這個加起來就是16%。現在不管是故意或者是無意，我跟你講好好用核能，黃仁勳都這樣講了，他可以接受用核能嘛！所以你說要他回來，他跟你講電不夠，你跟他講我們的核電廠核三可以延役，或者我們的核四趕快去看看能不能檢修一下，如果安全，我們可以啟用啊！這樣我們的電就夠了，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
張委員啓楷：最後我問一件事情，昨天你跟院長一直在和我爭執一個東西，你說大家就用RE100，你知道現在大家更流行的是什麼嗎？已經到了全時無碳電力了，也就是CFE，RE100連當初那個創始會員國的最大企業亞馬遜現在都退出了，他都已經去加入CFE了，CFE現在有多少？微軟、三菱電機、Google都是啊！亞馬遜現在都進來了，更重要的，那是官方的，它是聯合國能源組織攜手25家以上的大企業和組織共同倡議的，它都認為核能要用啊！現在全世界的潮流是什麼？就是全時無碳電力，包括核能嘛！所以你們不要再避免核能了。我今天這個質詢是很重要的，我們趕快達成，不要讓人家講說你是畫大餅，你剛剛吟詩作對很好，可是說到一定要做到。第二個，你現在的活路並不是到菲律賓去買電，考慮一下核能好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
主席：待陳亭妃委員質詢完畢，我們休息5分鐘。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][1] |
現在請鄭正鈐委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
314 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-19-9 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
高金素梅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
233 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-30 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1139102 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1139102_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國
對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1139102_00004 |