| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f340eb99b65c800f3f96e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e11aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:25:45 - 10:42:37 |
| 影片長度 |
1012 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.091 |
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0.255 |
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海委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
44.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
68.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備選常務委員好委員好一定保定好我們最近這三年已經漲了四次電價 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
70.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
97.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我相信以你們這麼接地氣應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音現在是連台積電剛剛在談因為台積電在法說會上面都埋怨了結果你們剛剛還在爭辯我們看一下台積電怎麼說來台積電是在法說會喔在這說台灣的電價三年漲了四次他們每度電的電費增加多少將近一倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
99.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
99.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
。（10月29日（。 三 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
128.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
129.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二、行政院院長提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
158.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
158.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
。（10月29日（。 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
189.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
200.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你們每次都拿南韓來比我跟你講南韓現在最新的你只看到人家漲電價人家為了要把電價降下來人家最近要重啟10個新的核能的反應爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
202.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
218.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
現在核電一度就是1.1、1.13啊,人家都在做努力啊,其實我們現在不是,我們現在看到什麼,你們把最便宜的核電停掉了,然後去買了很多的再生能,真的可以爭取啊,可以做啊,問題你們買的都很貴,現在產生弊案啊,現在電價會產生這個問題,包括台積電會埋怨,是這兩個大的問題,好來,現在更重要的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
224.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
251.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊你們要有國際觀啊去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做為了打造AI智慧島這是你們的理想嘛對不對信誓旦旦跟人民講結果你沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠所以台灣你一賣就沒辦法設這個AI了然後你看國際怎麼做來你這裡你看看Google啊說因為AI訓練太耗電了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
253.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
270.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
谷果去買了7座的核能反應爐買了7座的核能反應爐然後呢?微軟你看微軟要用哪邊的核電?院長,我們從小就...美國發生山梨島事件的災變嘛對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
273.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
299.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
微軟用的是山梨島要重啟的核電所以你們一直在讓人覺得很恐慌說核電多危險核電沒辦法處理全世界先進國家發生311核災的日本現在都重啟核電美國連山梨島這個地方都要重啟要供應給微軟好你剛說你對我們這個國際大廠要來台灣有信心最可能的就是灰島嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
301.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
324.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
黃澄清他講我願意回台灣阿可是第一個我要一百億度電的綠電阿我們可以給他阿博定你保險你當時要給他一百億度的綠電的那個綠電我們當然他只要他開出條件我們就可以做阿那台灣現在博定你知道阿你怎麼這樣亂贏弱勒你台灣現在的綠電有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
326.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
329.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
345.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
345.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
362.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
384.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
開關開起來就有了這個是要創電那綠電基本上它有幾個綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換然後稀有的燃燒可以去探捕捉的都可以形成零碳保定保定你怎麼說要提醒你要緊嚴慎行 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
386.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
403.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們通常 通常 你是很好 你很有創意 不過我跟你講你這個很不切合實際 到目前為止整個國家發展這麼久就是200億度的這個綠電 結果你一下說引漏人家100億 沒有沒有啦 保定 去努力啦 你回去 保定過去到現在齁 不是我做保定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
404.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
419.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以你不可以把過去的這個這個選擇 本人 本人現在正在直播 全民都在看你講話你下了清明狀 你開口了一百一度電的綠電給 只要他來 就看你什麼時候給了他 OK來來來 跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
422.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
444.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們現在的綠電的比例但16%左右百分之16左右我們預計到2030年我們綠電要生長到成長到百分之30%就是我們要加倍的增長我們來一個簡單的方式都是有應該是共同來促進這個事情而不是現在就認為說一定做不到我想回到各個你們縣市區委員也在爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
444.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
471.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
加以多設一些科技園區我們就需要更多的電還好我們有這麼多的綠電否則這個世界大廠要來這裡基本的條件都達不到聽了他們願意來那個院長我們來一個做一個最簡單的數學題大概國小程度啦過去的八年蔡政府政府增加了多少的再生能源5.1%嘛被你5.1%我問你數學題嘛那你說未來的兩未來的兩年你沒有達到20%增加10% |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
473.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
502.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這可不可能達得到,你們回去算一下,我不要答案,你們算,說全國民眾水準都很高,算一下就知道你在講天荒業。AI的進步也不是數學題,它是幾何題,我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成,現在我們極力在推。那共同努力嘛,來來,我們共同想辦法好不好,來來,我們想一個辦法。現在核市場一直丟在那裡,我們剛剛講,我們剛剛講了Google,講了微軟,一定,來一定你喜歡嗎這個事情,有沒有考慮,你剛剛講再生能源啊, |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
502.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
508.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
現在大家捨棄了RE100現在都在追求什麼CFE就是所謂的無碳電力 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
522.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
522.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
542.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
知道那裡面要強調的都是包括核能在裡面好啦沒關係來來我先做我的建議 兩個不同的組織嘛來議員你先聽一下 兩個不同的組織委員你的前提要對我們才能推論你把核電當作綠電那這個推論下去就會產生變差現在全世界包括E100的一些創辦這些大的企業現在都跑去CFE啦你們沒有跟上時代嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
549.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你寫出來是示意 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
566.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
新北市的居民問一下新北市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
593.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
621.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
總監你可以問問,你要促成,你是行政院長,你要讓我們的台積電,讓我們的能源,我們請努力啦,院長,我們至少有四個優點,來來,第一個我跟你講,第一個,你的核廢料,跟核二端的這個處理,如果台積電是認了之後,他可以幫忙處理這個問題,第二更重要的,台積電本來說電沒搞對不對,他就有足夠的電啊,第三個,你也不要再花錢去維護,這四個就省起來對不對,而且你會把副資產, |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
622.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
。（10月29日（。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
632.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
658.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你要匯掉核市要花3000億喔委員我第一個我同意我們如何來處理核市場的問題但是把核市場當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠我認為是一個不切實際的這個不切實際不僅來自於我們的現在的狀況對於新北市的市民對於新北市政府來看都是一個非常遙不可及的道路委員如果有這個創意委員有一個創意可以去問問看你看看Google看看微軟怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
659.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
683.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
微軟都可以去用美國森林島的核電啊為什麼核市場現在放在那邊為什麼不能處理啊來我跟你談更重要的一個問題健康的問題議長你這個報告的第三頁啊你今天報告的第三頁啊你說到10月22號你看一下台電的這個發電啊這個結構是燃煤 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
686.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
714.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
三十三點二趴（燃氣（四十九點五趴（再生能源（十六點零趴（十六零我給大家看一下（你看一下這個圖（看一下這個圖（這個圖的右上角的時間點（就是你剛提的（十月二十二號（凌晨（五點四十（你知道嗎（你報告裡面的十六趴（的再生能源（是零（ |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
714.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
723.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
724.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
748.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們有說過 太陽能供電雖然要做可是它是不穩定的我們也說過再生能源有間歇性所以要靠其他的橋接來補救所以你要儲能嘛儲能一度電要多少跟大家報告一度電要7塊錢成本是高的 院長我更重要提醒你大家聽我講這個牽扯到人民健康一定我們很多人那時候五六點都起來運動了嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
750.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
769.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你在你講的這個時間點10月22日的凌晨全台灣有多少人在運動準備去上班特別在運動的都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了這樣行政院對得起人民嗎但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低降到三分之一囉燃氣它是低碳的喔院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
770.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
770.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
799.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
803.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員長的講法嚴重的誤導嚴重這樣講話嚴重的誤導院長我們再講一個地緣關係不能說這樣代表大家就是人體空氣清淨區 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
817.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
833.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康?一定有責任講實話講實話,院長所以你怎麼樣?繼續讓人民當這個清淨的這個沒有,你這樣子指控你清淨的雞巴?沒有,沒有辦法這樣子指控他問你一個安全問題兩岸的關係,你等於畫抗中保台嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
834.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
835.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一年到一年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
865.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
865.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
888.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
890.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
指令法公約五十六條之一明定 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
917.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
919.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
全世界都要返回核能 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
933.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
948.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
只要民進黨政府現在行政法院還抱著,還意識形態,你還在反對核電,你就看看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的這個個案。我給你看一個圖,你看一下我們現在的圖,來,我們看下一個圖,時間有限,你看一下,這個圖裡面深藍色跟淺藍啊,都是正在用核電,而且還繼續增加的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
958.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
959.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
995.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1010.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝張旗桿委員,謝謝卓院長及各部會所長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第五號,邱毅英委員質詢。 |
| gazette.lineno |
278 |
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張委員啓楷：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請卓院長跟郭部長。 |
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主席：麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：張委員好。 |
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郭部長智輝：委員好。 |
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張委員啓楷：院長跟部長好。我們最近這三年已經漲了4次電價，我相信以你們這麼接地氣，應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音，現在是連台積電……剛剛在談，台積電在法說會上面都埋怨了，結果你們剛剛還在爭辯，我們看一下台積電怎麼說，來！台積電是在法說會喔！他說臺灣的電價三年漲了4次，他們每度電的電費增加多少？將近一倍，而且已經是他全球所有廠區裡面最高的。大家都知道，台積電在美國、在日本、在德國、在中國大陸都有，剛剛部長有解釋，不管別的國家用什麼水力發電那一些，就是臺灣現在的發電讓他負擔是最重的，這會出現兩個很大的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
第一個，我們的護國神山，現在每個縣市都說你來這邊建廠，要擴廠，結果你的電價這麼貴，他怎麼去？這是一個。第二個，你吃掉他多少利潤？毛利率的1%喔！他一年賺的錢雖然很多，可是因為你的電價，吃掉了人家100億。院長，我們的護國神山因為你們一直調電價，事實上已經發生2個副作用了，各個縣市每次都跟你爭取說幫忙啊！幫忙啊！請護國神山來這邊建廠、擴廠，對不對？這個你就沒辦法點頭了，所以這是一個大問題。第二個，你會不會擔心？因為我們的競爭力越來越低啊！你剛剛說不擔心我們的護國神山出走，對不對？可是投資會不會減少？不至於是嗎？這是不是很大的一個衝擊？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們以鄰近的、競爭力相同的國家韓國來看，我們的電的成本還是比他低的。另外，…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們真人不說假話啦！剛剛為什麼特別提到？你們每次都拿南韓來比，我跟你講南韓現在最新的，你只看到人家漲電價，人家為了要把電價降下來，人家最近要重啟10個新的核能反應爐，現在核電一度就是1.13啊！人家都在做努力，結果我們現在不是，我們現在看到什麼？你把最便宜的核電停掉了，然後去買了很多的再生能源，再生能源可以爭取、可以做，問題是你們買的都很貴，現在產生弊案啊！現在電價會產生這個問題，包括台積電會埋怨，是這兩個大的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][1] |
現在更重要的，院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊！你們要有國際觀啊！去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做，為了打造AI智慧島，這是你們的理想，對不對？信誓旦旦跟人民講，結果你有沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠，說桃園以北就沒辦法設AI了。然後你看國際怎麼做，院長，你看一下，Google說因為AI訓練太耗電了，Google去買了7座的核能反應爐，然後你看微軟，它要用哪邊的核電？院長，我們從小讀書的時候就有看到，美國發生過三哩島事件的災變對不對？微軟用的是三哩島要重啟的核電，所以你們一直在讓人民覺得很恐慌，覺得核電多危險、核廢料沒有辦法處理。全世界先進國家、發生過311核災的日本，現在都重啟核電；美國連三哩島這個地方都要重啟，要供電給微軟。你剛剛說，你對國際大廠來臺灣有信心，最可能的就是輝達，對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：不只喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
張委員啓楷：黃仁勳怎麼講的？我願意回臺灣啊！可是第一個，我要100億度的綠電。 |
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郭部長智輝：我們可以給它。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長可以保證？你什麼時候可以給它100億度的綠電？ |
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郭部長智輝：只要它開出條件，我們就可以做啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們臺灣現在……部長你怎麼這樣亂允諾呢？你知不知道臺灣現在的綠電有多少？200億度左右而已耶！他開口要你的二分之一，這些綠電幾乎都被台積電買走了， 你現在……部長、部長，你要把事情弄清楚，你不要亂允諾啊！什麼時候可以做到？ |
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郭部長智輝：報告委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
張委員啓楷：你下了軍令狀，但你什麼時候可以給輝達100億度的綠電？什麼時候？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
郭部長智輝：它不會現在就要100億度電。我跟委員報告，因為我們都有跟世界大廠在互動，我們都瞭解它什麼時候需要多少電，但是電不是開關開起來就有的，這個是要創電嘛！綠電基本上有幾個，綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換，然後是既有的這個燃燒可以去碳捕捉的，都可以形成零碳。 |
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張委員啓楷：部長，你曾經要我提醒你要謹言慎行…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
郭部長智輝：我們通常做一做…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是很有創意，不過我跟你講，你這樣很不切合實際。到目前為止，整個國家發展這麼久，就是200億度的綠電，結果你一下就允諾人家100億。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
郭部長智輝：報告委員，過去到現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，你回去努力啦！部長…… |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
郭部長智輝：過去到現在不是我在當部長，所以你不能把過去的成績，用來比照在我身上。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
張委員啓楷：部長，現在都在直播，全民都在看你講話。你下了軍令狀，你開口要把100億度的綠電給輝達…… |
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郭部長智輝：只要它來、它要求，我就可以給它。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，就看你什麼時候可以給它。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們現在綠電的比例占16%左右，預計到2030年綠電會成長到30%，也就是說我們會加倍地成長，相關的路徑及方式我們都有。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們算一下簡單的數學題。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
卓院長榮泰：應該是共同來促進這個事情，而不是現在就認為一定做不到。我想回到各個縣市去，委員也在為嘉義爭取多設一些科技園區，我們就需要更多的電，還好我們有這麼多的綠電，否則世界大廠要來這裡，基本的條例都達不到，現在他們願意來。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們來做一個最簡單的數學題，大概就是國小程度的啦！過去8年蔡政府增加了多少的再生能源？5.1%嘛！8年5.1%，我問你數學題，你說未來2年要達到20%，也就是增加10%，這可不可能達得到？你們回去算一下，我不要答案，全國民眾水準都很高，算一下就知道你在講天方夜談。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
卓院長榮泰：AI的進步也不是數學題，它是幾何題，我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成，現在我們極力在推。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
張委員啓楷：要共同努力嘛！我們共同想辦法好不好？來，我們來想一個辦法。現在核四廠一直丟在那裡，我們剛剛講了Google、講了微軟，院長，你想想看這件事情，有沒有考慮……你剛剛講了再生能源、綠電，但核電也是綠電啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
郭部長智輝：核電不是綠電，核電是潔淨能源。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
卓院長榮泰：核電不是綠電喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在我先跟大家講一下，現在大家捨棄了RE100，現在都在追求什麼？CFE，就是所謂的「無碳電力」，你知道嗎？ |
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郭部長智輝：知道。 |
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張委員啓楷：裡面強調的都有包括核能在其中。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
郭部長智輝：這是兩個不同的組織…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張委員啓楷：好啦，沒關係，我先說我的建議。院長你先聽一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
郭部長智輝：是兩個不同的組織…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張委員啓楷：核四廠丟在…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，你的前提、問題要對，我們才能推論，你把核電當作綠電，這個推論下去就會產生偏差。 |
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張委員啓楷：現在全世界，包括創辦RE100創辦的這些大企業…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
卓院長榮泰：它是一個低碳的潔淨能源。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張委員啓楷：現在都跑去CFE了，你們沒有跟上時代嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你覺得大廠買綠電還是買核電…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
張委員啓楷：他們願意用核電，好不好？來，院長，我先問你一下，現在核四廠你就把它擺在那邊，對不對？你知道一年要多少維護費？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你寫出來是4億。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
張委員啓楷：一年4億，要嘛你就廢掉，要嘛就用啊，你現在最不理想的是什麼？你就把它丟在那裡嘛！這是不是最不理想的狀況？每一年花4億。剛才講到台積電，它已經講它的電不夠用了，電費又太貴，有一個最便宜的電在那裡，有沒有考慮？可以考慮啊！很多民眾在建議，雙贏啊！至少有四個優點…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，你要不要問一下新北市的居民？問一下新北市政府？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
張委員啓楷：當然，你可以去問，你要促成，欸！你是行政院長，你要讓我們的台積電、讓我們的能源夠…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員的構想，委員先去問啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們一起努力啦，院長，至少有四個優點…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員的構想，委員先去問啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講，第一個，你的核廢料跟核後端的處理，如果台積電去認養之後，它可以幫忙處理這個問題。第二個，更重要的，台積電本來說電不夠，對不對？它就有足夠的電。第三個，你也不要再花錢去維護，這4億就省起來了，對不對？而且你會把負資產變成收入。另外一個考慮，如果你覺得台積電去認養不好，台電自己趕快啊，核四廠你丟在那邊，你要廢掉核四要花3,000億喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，第一個，我同意我們如何來處理核四廠的問題，但是把核四廠當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠，我認為是不切實際的，這個不切實際不僅來自於我們現在的狀況，對於新北市的市民、對於新北市政府來看，都是一個非常遙不可及的道路。委員，如果有這個創意…… |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，跟上世界潮流，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，有這個創意可以去問問看。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
張委員啓楷：你看看Google、看看微軟怎麼做，微軟都可以去用美國三哩島的核電，核四廠現在放在那邊，為什麼不能處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][1] |
來，我跟你談更重要的一個問題──健康的問題。院長，你今天報告的第3頁說到10月22號，你看一下，台電的發電結構是燃煤33.2%、燃氣49.5%、再生能源16.0%。我給大家看一下，你看一下這個圖，這個圖右上角的時間點就是你剛剛提的10月22號凌晨5點40分，你知道嗎？你報告裡面的16%的再生能源是零…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
卓院長榮泰：因為太陽還沒有出來啊，因為太陽還沒有出來啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，太陽沒出來，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，風也不見了，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
張委員啓楷：這顯示什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們有說過它有間歇性。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
張委員啓楷：太陽能光電雖然要做，可是它是不穩定的。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對，我們也說過再生能源有間歇性，所以要靠其他的橋接來補救。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以你要儲能，儲能一度要多少？跟大家報告，一度電要7塊錢，成本是高的。院長，更重要的要提醒你，大家聽我講，這個牽扯到人民健康，院長，我們很多人五、六點那時候都起來運動了，對不對？在你講的這個時間點，10月22號的凌晨，全臺灣有多少人在運動？準備去上班，特別在運動的，都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了，這樣行政院對得起人民嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
卓院長榮泰：但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低，降到三分之一囉，燃氣它是低碳的喔，有火力發電…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，這個時間點，台電的資料全部都是火力發電，就是燃煤跟燃氣98.15%…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這樣會誤解、這樣會誤導，火力發電當然有燃煤跟燃氣，火力發電是燃煤和燃氣。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，所以你的再生能源16%不見了。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
卓院長榮泰：超過一半以上是燃氣。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
張委員啓楷：都不見了，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以我們沒有用…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
張委員啓楷：再生能源16%全部都不見了嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
卓院長榮泰：就是在那個瞬間。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
張委員啓楷：這個時候，全臺灣人出去運動的全部變成人體空氣清淨機，怎麼對得起人民？ |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員這樣的講法嚴重誤導，這樣的講法嚴重誤導。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
郭部長智輝：這個要看空氣本身到底……發電有多少碳，不能說這樣就代表大家就是人體空氣清淨機。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們再講一個地緣關係。火力發電比起再生能源是污染嘛！你們為政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康？院長，我先問你另外一個問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們有責任講實話。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
張委員啓楷：講實話，院長，所以你要怎麼樣？繼續讓人民當清淨機嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有，你這樣子指控，你沒有辦法這樣子指控！ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
張委員啓楷：我再問你一個安全問題，兩岸的關係，你一直在喊抗中保臺，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我何時……誰天天喊抗中保臺？ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
張委員啓楷：你沒有要抗中保臺？你有沒有要保護臺灣？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們保護自己的主權跟自己的安全。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
張委員啓楷：你有沒有保臺？有嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你不保臺嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你連抗中保臺都否認喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你不保臺嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們一起啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對啊！那…… |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
張委員啓楷：我說你要怎麼落實？你不要只是喊，結果弄到後來是抗中不保臺！來，你來看一下，燃料棒一支可以使用多久？進去反應爐之後的燃料棒，一支是1年到1年半；天然氣的部分，我知道中油非常努力，我也問過幾次，是7到14天，有時候可以增加到15天，可是要怎麼再增加？這樣很容易就到極限，一個1年到1年半，一個7到14天，你選擇的竟然是7到14天。第二個，天然氣只能海運，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
卓院長榮泰：燃料棒使用之後要放多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
張委員啓楷：蛤？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
卓院長榮泰：燃料棒使用之後，拿出來要放多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
張委員啓楷：拿出來放多久…… |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
卓院長榮泰：要放在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
張委員啓楷：放到現在的儲存槽啊！我到核三廠去看過，現在我們的燃料棒都還可以放5年啊！院長，你一直有個盲點，全世界大家都在用核電，而且人家都不煩惱核廢料，為什麼你一直要恐嚇人民？ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是你在恐嚇人民，我沒有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有啊！你恐嚇人民啊！你說沒辦法處理，但全世界都在用啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你從剛剛一直在恐嚇人民喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，我再提醒你一點，日內瓦公約第五十六條之一明定，戰爭的時候，包括兩岸如果真的打起來，禁止攻擊民用核電廠跟水庫，對不對？所以核電廠也是安全的，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[104][1] |
好，我做一個簡單的總結，全世界都要返回核能，只有民進黨政府現在還抱著神主牌、還意識形態、還在反對核能，你看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的個案，我給你看一個圖…… |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
卓院長榮泰：非核家園是現在我們的法律規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你看一下這個圖、你看一下維基百科的圖。來，我們看下一個圖。 |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們現在的法律就是邁向非核家園。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
張委員啓楷：時間有限，你看一下，這個圖裡面的深藍跟淺藍色都是正在用核電的地區，而且還繼續增加，只有一個地方是紅色的，那就是臺灣，因為民進黨的意識形態。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][1] |
最後我再提一個點，你一直在講民意，對不對？天下雜誌剛剛做了一個最新民調，近7成民眾支持繼續用核電。你們不是最重視民意嗎？這個就是最新民意，請尊重民意，並注意世界的潮流，當大家都在用的時候，不要去恐嚇人民，全世界先進國家都在用，為什麼臺灣不能用？更重要的是，我們需要穩定且低廉的價格。好，一起努力，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們依法行政。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
主席：謝謝張啓楷委員、謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][1] |
接下來請登記第5號邱議瑩委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
159 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-6 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
徐欣瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
67 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-29 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138401_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1138401_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138401_00010 |
| IVOD_ID |
156216 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156216 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-6 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第6次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-29T10:25:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-29T10:42:37+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |