| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685ba6b5c6c43a0f73b76b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b3cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:39:20 - 12:54:56 |
| 影片長度 |
936 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。
【如經復議則不予審查】） |
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好謝謝主席主席很厲害今天把八個部會都找來太棒了八個部會對台灣高齡者政策有具體的研擬的相關的項目的請上台 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.263 |
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對高齡者政策相關面向有具體政策的還有相關法律依據制定的請上台。那就全到了嘛,對不對?那對中高齡者有具體的政策全部的面向有具體政策的請留下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
56.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
韓中高齡者 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.362 |
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109.998 |
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你有沒有再確定一下應該都有啦應該都有所以部長就統一代大家答覆,統都有那各位就請回吧,請留下何部長就好你們先確定一下吧你們確定有我想這個人口快速的變動大家都非常清楚不是今年年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
110.851 |
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128.429 |
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就是明年年初那最早在10年前是評估起來是到2026的時候臺灣要進到超高齡社會嘛對不對好然後現在提早一年就是2025那我個人感覺是到2024就12月底應該就達標了那達標之後什麼叫超高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.691 |
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144.23 |
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當台灣的政府更多部會講說針對高齡跟中高齡都有相關這個面下的政策相關的法律在做這樣的應應那請問一下何部長你有針對超高齡者的部分來做處理嗎委員是指65歲以上嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.357 |
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157.945 |
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我這邊就是有中高齡就業促進法嘛。那裡面當然就涵蓋了高齡。65歲以上。這個是兩塊不一樣的嘛。中高齡跟高齡。45到65是中高齡。他們都有嘛。他們剛剛上來都是有喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
166.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
177.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
麻煩拜託各位剛才上來的把你們交代幕僚把你們的高齡跟中高齡相關的政策面向法律依據提供給本委員會做參考剛剛有上來的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
179.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
207.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
麻煩你一下你今天下午這個召委話喊休息前沒有提出來那我們大家就再請召委再排一次好好來檢討這個事情我為什麼會特別這麼問當台灣面臨到這個人口的結構快速轉變過程裡面在兩年前生不如死然後我們現在面對超高齡然後這兩塊坦白講就要讓台灣的所有的政府部門要很積極快速來做這個因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
214.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那我必須要講高齡者的一個全面的面向的政策我們有定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
委員,我們在行政院有因應超高齡社會對策方案。對策嘛,不是政策嘛。是,是,那是行政做事含法律。我們有針對高齡者的一個上位計畫嗎?有嗎?有啊。有。行政院這個就是啊。他叫名稱,麻煩你再請一下。而且從這個...名稱請再明確地跟委員...就因應超高齡社會對策方案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
240.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那在這裡面我們今年再加進了中壯世代參與促進方案可是壯世代是這個方案這是外加的應該就是因應超高點社會對策方案應該我們都在臺灣嘛然後你在公部門我們在民意機關嘛那想這個人口快速的這個改變最主要它可能會連動的面向是非常廣的嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
265.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有可能從教育嘛從文化嘛從產業嘛你想得到全部都會因為人口快速的改變他要跟著變嘛對不對啊跟著變有的變得很快有的就變得很慢就還有緩衝的機會但是有的真的是沒有緩衝的機會好那你現在講的就是說我們行政有一個針對超硬硬超高齡的相關的對策嗎是啊這個相關的對策是全能全面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
290.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
290.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
什麼時候訂的啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
336.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
委員這個在20...我們在111年蘇院長時期就已經有這樣子的機制了那麼到今年今年這個機制當然蘇院長上來之後蘇院長繼續擔任這個召集人那麼陳時中政委主持了這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
360.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因應超高齡對策方案的這樣子的一個規劃跟執行因為你當過副秘書長應該對這事情很清楚了但是我還是請何部長還有各部會今天的代表可能要再回去檢視一下吧因為你如果跟台灣的百姓講說我們中央政府有訂一個來因應超高齡相關的這個對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
381.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
的這樣的一個積極的作為基本上那簡單就再講一句話說你知道台灣的老人政策是什麼嗎?高齡者政策是什麼嗎?你知道台灣百姓你可以去做民意調查台灣的百姓會回你什麼?不會回你那個叫做超高齡的因應政策會回你什麼?你知道嗎?就會回一項而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
383.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
長照2.0長照2.0是一個很重要的區塊但是這樣就本末倒置了啦為什麼叫本末倒置長照服務法的定義是什麼長期生理心理自己沒辦法治理啦要人家跟他料理啦那就是長照照顧的對象嘛那如果台灣的老人的政策是用長照2.0來focus的話那就代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
409.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
434.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
台灣的這個超高齡未來都要進入到長照都是身體心理長期自己沒辦法治理要讓人家料理所以這個是錯誤的所以我是要特別跟你表達就是到目前為止就讓我的感覺還有普羅大眾的感覺台灣針對超高齡的政策因應政策對策基本上他有這個輪廓但是不是很清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
436.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
457.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我要跟你表達是這樣啦所以這個請各部會是不是可以特別去思考一下那當然也給貴院就行政院也要特別去思考一下這個你講蘇院長的時候我在總質詢也都問過了但坦白講可以現在馬上來檢測了是有問題的這第一點那第二點因為部長你就留著我就持續問勞動部了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
476.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個上個上禮拜就問這個臺灣居委通部長看一下這個是又是勞動力發展署嘛這個應該部長機由心上禮拜我們討論的是在職這次是職檢你們這個職檢宣言晚有一個叫做高齡者專區課程這應該是提供給高齡者在就業的一個培訓課程嘛對不對是好這是什麼狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
489.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
504.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你現在有電腦幕了,有電腦可以馬上按一下,它出現什麼?BUG是不是?BUG是什麼意思?BUGBUG是什麼意思? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
531.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
請署長回應一下我們這個台灣九月通這裡面我發現這裡面可能我們在那個系統的設計上是有產生問題所以我們一些課程現在裡面沒有辦法去呈現出來對阿為什麼會這樣跟委員報告這個確實是我們剛剛部長的開宗明譽我們針對高齡者跟中高齡者我們就是有這一個九月促進法對不對阿你的網站為什麼會出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
554.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好沒關係我們再看45歲到65歲叫中高齡嘛對不對好你的45歲到65歲的之前的這一個訓練碗是什麼你提供給我們這些中高齡者要來做什麼之前訓練拖車司機連結司機連結了連結了是35棟啊如果連結了又拖澳大都OK了不是35棟整棟你自己去請媽媽的夜間物流司機 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
561.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
571.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
水域活動教練我不曉得部長對老化屬每個這種中高齡者的這些工作的之前訓練你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我講一個例子我曾經要在我們母縣讓這個夜醫牙醫急診可以來落實然後當時有嘉義市提出來然後雲林縣也提出來結果嘉義市到現在還在做嘉義縣雲林縣到現在不到半年就撐不下去了因為平均的牙醫師差不多在55歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
599.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
601.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
委員 什麼報告一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
632.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我沒有說45歲不用做這些事情啦但是你是45到65歲就練舉嘛叫中高齡嘛我就講清楚嘛那你覺得來沒有這樣的職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
648.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
669.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
OK嗎?委員其實45到65歲其實對於一些資深的一些職業駕駛的司機可能他還是有這樣的一個能力那當然這個我們會做一些適性的一個我就會講說我們有說一定不行嘛那你們有做過相關的評估嗎?你們職安署有沒有其他的意見?職安署職安署在嗎?你們職安署跟老化署有TESTV有共同坐下來討論說沒和這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
678.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
685.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
報告委員,我們治安署有訂那個有關於中高齡就業的這個安全衛生的指引。那我們跟勞法署在這個促進就業包含植物再設計的部分也有一些合作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
702.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
708.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以你們現在才開始要密切,之前都沒有密切?你們之前有密切,密切你覺得這幾個項目對中高齡是來沒有治安署的角度是適合的?治安署,請治安署回答,是適合的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
729.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
758.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這些都是高耗能體力的可能有些是產業別那也要顧慮到這個就是求職人他的個別的個別的他的身心狀況你們做過相關的一些評估嗎?應該是我們的勞安所或是說國際上應該也會有一些業別的調查有關於這個風險的程度那你怎麼會去調查?你們職安署的立場呢?其實還是要看看業別的這個風險是不是適合中高齡還有還有有做風險嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
760.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有沒有給老花鼠意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
784.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
799.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
還是沒有?你回答我就好 有沒有?呃 有沒有給意見?那個委員 45到65這中間其實說真的 45你說到55基本上這個都算 現在都還是算年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
800.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
805.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是我剛剛跟部長就引譽夜間牙醫診所平均50歲的牙醫師坦白講就動不掉了啦對可是我要跟您強調他們這還不算危老行業啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
819.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
824.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你的職安署已經在委員會講說這些屬於高風險的啊職安署已經講了啊不是就是說我們職安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
839.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
848.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個部分這個行業他是不是高風險你要去看他在實際從事的時候他的那個狀態吧就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
851.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
875.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你還給我回來了,不好吧,我是提醒這事情就是說我們要訂定高齡者跟中高齡者的相關的因應政策的時候要非常的嚴謹,訂了之後要有辦法去執行然後你們兩署如果對這一個基本上沒有共識那最好就是不要放上去這對老東部絕對是正面的事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
905.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個我們回去檢討啦謝謝啦把那個指引再做一個更精細的行業別的檢討對啦你們應該是針對這個風險評估嘛對不對相關配套嘛還有這個就業的環境嘛這個可以給我們一個正式的研究報告再給我們委員會做參考好不好因為我坦白講這個台灣就業通110年度裡面編了1億嘛那明年好像是再多1000萬啦都不多啦但是就像上個禮拜我講那個事情到這個禮拜又是這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
906.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
906.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝建國兄 |
| gazette.lineno |
957 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
劉委員建國：（12時39分）謝謝主席。主席很厲害，今天把8個部會都找來，太棒了！8個部會對於臺灣高齡者政策有具體研擬相關項目的請上臺。對高齡者政策相關面向有具體政策的，還有相關法律依據制定的請上臺。那就全到了嘛，對不對？那對中高齡者全部的面向有具體的政策請留下。你們都有？ |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，您指的是法…… |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
劉委員建國：我第一個針對高齡者有訂定相關面向政策的，就留在這個臺上，第二個有含中高齡者有訂定相關面向政策的，就請留在臺上，沒有就請回去。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
何部長佩珊：含中高齡？我一定有。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉委員建國：你要不要再確定一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
何部長佩珊：應該都有啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉委員建國：應該都有？所以部長就統一代大家答復通通都有？那各位就請回吧，留下何部長就好。你們先確定一下吧，你們確定有？我想人口快速的變動，大家都非常清楚，不是今年年底就是明年年初，最早在十年前評估起來是到2026年的時候，臺灣要進入超高齡社會，對不對？好，現在提早一年，就是2025年，我個人感覺是到2024年12月底應該就達標了，那達標之後，什麼叫超高齡？當臺灣的政府這麼多部會說針對高齡跟中高齡都有相關面向的政策、相關的法律在做因應，那請問一下何部長，你有針對超高齡者的部分來做處理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員是指65歲以上嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉委員建國：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
何部長佩珊：我這邊就是有中高齡就業促進法，裡面當然就涵蓋了高齡，65歲以上。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉委員建國：這是兩塊不一樣的，中高齡跟高齡不一樣，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，45歲到65歲是中高齡，65歲以上是高齡。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉委員建國：他們都有嘛，他們剛上來都是有。拜託各位剛才上來的，交代幕僚把你們的高齡跟中高齡相關的政策、法律依據提供給本委員會做參考，剛剛有上來的部會，麻煩一下，今天下午召委宣告休息前沒有提出來，那我們大家就請召委再排一次，好好來檢討這個事情。我為什麼會特別這麼問？當臺灣面臨到人口結構快速轉變過程，兩年前「生不如死」，然後現在面對超高齡，這兩塊坦白講就讓臺灣的所有的政府部門要很積極、快速地來做因應。我必須要講高齡者的一個全人、全面向的政策，我們有訂嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我們在行政院有因應超高齡社會對策方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
劉委員建國：對策，不是政策嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，那是行政措施含法律。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
劉委員建國：我們有針對高齡者的一個上位計畫嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
何部長佩珊：有啊！行政院這個就是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
劉委員建國：名稱麻煩再請明確地跟委員會…… |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
何部長佩珊：因應超高齡社會對策方案，在這裡面，我們今年再加進了中壯世代參與促進方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
劉委員建國：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
何部長佩珊：可是壯世代這個方案是外加的，主要就是因應超高齡社會對策方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
劉委員建國：部長，我們應該都在臺灣嘛，你在公部門，我們在民意機關，人口結構的快速改變可能會連動的面向是非常廣的，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉委員建國：有可能從教育、從文化、從產業，你想得到的全部都會，因為人口結構快速地改變，它要跟著變嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉委員建國：跟著變，有的變得很快，有的就變得很慢，就還有緩衝的機會，可是有的真的是沒有緩衝的機會。你現在講的是我們行政院有一個針對因應超高齡的相關對策。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉委員建國：這個相關對策是全人、全面地來做處理嗎？沒有吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
何部長佩珊：是全面，含15個部會，每一個部會都有方案，然後421項措施，由院長擔任召集人，然後陳時中政委當主持實際執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉委員建國：什麼時候訂的？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，在111年蘇院長時期就已經有這樣的機制了，那麼到今年，當然卓院長上來之後，繼續擔任召集人，陳時中政委主持了這一個因應超高齡對策方案的規劃跟執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉委員建國：因為你當過副秘書長，應該對這事情很清楚。但是我還是請何部長還有各部會今天的代表，可能要再回去檢視一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉委員建國：因為你如果跟臺灣的百姓說，我們中央政府有訂因應超高齡的相關對策這樣一個積極的作為，基本上，簡單就再講一句話說，你知道臺灣的老人政策是什麼嗎？高齡者政策是什麼嗎？你可以去做民意調查，臺灣的百姓會回你什麼？不會回你那一個叫做超高齡的因應政策，會回你什麼？你知道嗎？只會回一項而已啦，長照2.0。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，當然，當然，長照2.0是一個很重要的區塊。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉委員建國：但是這樣就本末倒置了啦，為什麼叫本末倒置？長照服務法的定義是什麼？長期生理、心理沒辦法自理，要人家幫他料理，那就是長照照顧的對象。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉委員建國：那如果臺灣的老人的政策是用長照2.0來focus的話，那就代表臺灣的超高齡未來都要進入到長照，都是身體、心理長期沒辦法自理，要讓人家料理，這個是錯誤的。所以我是要特別跟你表達，就是到目前為止我的感覺還有普羅大眾的感覺，臺灣針對超高齡的因應政策、對策基本上有這個輪廓，但是不是很清楚啦，我要跟你表達的是這樣，所以請各部會是不是可以特別去思考一下，那當然也請貴院行政院特別去思考一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
何部長佩珊：好，我們來反映。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉委員建國：你講蘇院長的時候，我在總質詢也都問過了，但坦白講現在馬上來檢測是有問題的，這第一點。第二點，部長你就留著，我持續問勞動部，上禮拜就問臺灣就業通，部長看一下，這個又是勞動力發展署，部長應該記憶猶新，上個禮拜我們討論的是在職，這次是職前，你們這個職前訓練館有一個叫做高齡者專區課程，這應該是提供給高齡者再就業的一個培訓課程，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
劉委員建國：這是什麼狀況？你現在有電腦，幕僚可以馬上按一下，它出現什麼？bug，是不是？bug是什麼意思？請署長回應一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們這個臺灣就業通裡面，我發現可能在系統的設計上有產生問題，一些課程現在沒有辦法呈現出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
劉委員建國：對啊，為什麼會這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個確實是我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
劉委員建國：剛剛部長開宗明義，我們針對高齡者跟中高齡者就是有就業促進法，你的網站為什麼又出問題？好，沒關係，我們再看45歲到65歲叫中高齡，你的45歲到65歲的職前訓練是什麼？你提供給這些中高齡者要來做什麼？拖車司機、聯結車司機的職前訓練，聯結車是35噸，如果聯結車又拖「後擔」，加起來就不是35噸，幾噸你自己去秤秤看，夜間物流司機、水域活動教練，我不曉得部長對勞發署推出中高齡者這些工作的職前訓練有什麼看法？我講一個例子，我曾經要在母縣讓牙醫急診可以落實，當時有嘉義市提出來，後來還有雲林縣提出來，結果嘉義市到現在還在做，可是雲林縣不到半年就撐不下去了，因為平均的牙醫師差不多在55歲，經不起晚上工作到這麼晚啦！嘉義市的牙醫平均年齡差不多四十幾歲，他們到現在還有辦法做下去。那你讓中高齡就是45歲到65歲來從事夜間物流司機、水域活動人員還有拖車司機的職前訓練。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
蔡署長孟良：委員，是不是報告一下，這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
劉委員建國：媒合職業啦，講錯了，媒合職業啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是、是、是，這個是就業徵才的一個登記。其實因為45歲以上基本上都在我們這樣一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
劉委員建國：我沒有說45歲不能做這些事情，但是45歲到65歲這個range叫中高齡，我們就講清楚嘛，你覺得來媒合這樣的職業OK嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
蔡署長孟良：委員，其實45歲到65歲對於一些資深職業駕駛的司機來講，可能他還是有這樣的能力，當然這個我們會做一些適性的…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
劉委員建國：我沒有說一定不行，但是你們有做過相關的評估嗎？你們職安署有沒有其他的意見？職安署！職安署的代表在嗎？你們職安署跟勞發署有共同坐下來討論說，媒合這樣需要重體力、要熬夜，然後放在中高齡的領域裡面，可以嗎？這樣好嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
許組長莉瑩：報告委員，我們職安署有訂定一個有關中高齡就業的安全衛生指引，我們跟勞發署在促進就業，包含職務再設計的部分也有一些合作，就是要注意這些被推介者在職場上的安全與健康。委員講的這個，我們會再跟勞發署密切配合…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
劉委員建國：所以你們現在才開始要「密切」，之前都沒有「密切」？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
許組長莉瑩：再更密切一點。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
劉委員建國：你們之前有「密切」，那麼你覺得對中高齡者而言，媒合這幾個項目以職安署的角度來看是適合的？請職安署回答，是適合的嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
許組長莉瑩：我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
劉委員建國：這些都是高消耗體力的耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
許組長莉瑩：可能有些是產業別，也要顧慮到求職者個別的身心狀況，所以還是要評估。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
劉委員建國：你們有做過相關的評估嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
許組長莉瑩：我們的勞安所或是國際上應該也會有一些業別的調查，有關這個風險的程度。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
劉委員建國：勞安所當然會去調查，可是你們職安署的立場呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
許組長莉瑩：其實還是要看看業別的風險適不適合中高齡…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
劉委員建國：你們有做過風險調查嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
許組長莉瑩：有些的確是…… |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
劉委員建國：針對45歲到65歲的中高齡者擔任聯結車的司機、夜間送貨的司機或者是從事水域工作，你們職安署覺得這樣OK嗎？你回答我OK，我就不會再問下去了啦！好不好？因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
許組長莉瑩：對中高齡者有比較高的風險，這是沒有錯的。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
劉委員建國：有高風險嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
許組長莉瑩：是、是、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
劉委員建國：那你們有沒有給勞發署意見？還是沒有？你回答我就好！有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
許組長莉瑩：有沒有給意見哦？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，45歲到65歲，其實說真的，比如說到55歲，基本上現在都還是算年輕，他擔任這種工作…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
劉委員建國：你在說我，我可以認同。 |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
何部長佩珊：他擔任貨車司機…… |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
劉委員建國：你現在叫我去開聯結車，我還受得了，但是我剛剛跟部長比喻，以夜間牙醫診所而言，平均55歲的牙醫師坦白講就受不了了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
何部長佩珊：可是我要跟您強調，他們這還不算是危勞行業啦！因為你如果說45歲，真的現在還算相對體力是OK的。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
劉委員建國：你的職安署已經說這些屬於高風險，職安署已經講了啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
何部長佩珊：不是，就是說我們職安署…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][1] |
這個行業是不是高風險，你要去看他在實際從事時候的狀態吧！就是說…… |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
劉委員建國：部長，你再這樣答復就不好了吧！我是提醒這個事情，就是說我們要訂定高齡者跟中高齡者的相關因應政策要非常嚴謹…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
何部長佩珊：有、有、有，我很重視這個。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
劉委員建國：訂了之後要有辦法去執行。你們兩署如果對這個部分基本上沒有共識，最好就不要放上去，這對勞動部絕對是正面的事情嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
何部長佩珊：這個我們回去檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
劉委員建國：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
何部長佩珊：把那個指引再做一個更精細的行業別的檢討，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
劉委員建國：對啦！你們應該針對風險評估、相關配套還有就業環境好好地檢討，這個部分請提出一個正式的研究報告給我們委員會參考，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
何部長佩珊：好、好、好。 |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
劉委員建國：因為坦白講，這個「台灣就業通」110年度你們編了1億，明年好像多1,000萬，增加不多，但這就像上禮拜我講的那個事情，到這個禮拜又是這樣的狀況，可能部長要特別注意。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
何部長佩珊：是、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
劉委員建國：我一直是對事，我沒有在對人的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
劉委員建國：這點大家還有委員會應該都非常清楚，但是如果我一直針對這個部會，還是針對這個單位、這個機關，對事對久了之後就會變成對人，我不希望發生這種事情啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
何部長佩珊：當然、當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
劉委員建國：因為我們是在討論公共的議題，我不需要去對人。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
劉委員建國：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
何部長佩珊：我請他們檢討，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
主席：好，謝謝建國兄。接續我們請吳宗憲委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
160 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
吳春城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[34] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
63 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-24 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1139001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1139001_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1139001_00002 |
| IVOD_ID |
156158 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156158 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
19 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-24T12:39:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-24T12:54:56+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |