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| 委員名稱 |
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好謝謝主席主席請一下何部長來有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
17.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
29.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
部長好,今天做業務報告我覺得勞動部現在可能最主要的業務就是我們要面對勞保的財務問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
34.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
53.271 |
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我今天大概就是簡要的跟部長來探討幾個問題第一個問題就是基於政府施政的連貫性跟一致性所以有幾個許前部長曾經講過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
56.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
77.353 |
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的政策宣誓我先來確認一下所以學員部長曾經講過就是說勞保年金重視掉了無紗帽他也要做部長你有沒有這種決心不過他有這個決心他也是到現在都沒有做你有沒有決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
80.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
97.063 |
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我就是說勞保年改的問題因為我們現在都已經用預算撥補然後再落實改革這其實就是改革的一環可是我要跟您強調這個所謂的勞保年改在我的 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
101.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
103.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個好像也是大家的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
117.449 |
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118.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我已經提案了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
146.892 |
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172.624 |
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是是是這當然我們尊重那部長你既然直接就跳到這裡我就直接問就是說你的概念裡面在不砍年金我是講說不砍年金可能是大家的最大共識那不砍年金你覺得你要怎麼推動改革對所有的改革就是撥補或者是我直接問好了就是說明年政府撥補多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
180.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
一千三百億後年呢後年一樣維持這樣的水準或是更多那到後年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
182.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
209.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在最大的問題就是說大家都覺得退休勞工領的年金其實已經以臺灣目前的生活物價指數已經算偏低了所以要再減少真的不可能可能馬上會變成社會救助的一部分要去找衛福部領錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
214.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
234.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以還是只有波普?波普是其中當然是波普就是最主要的啦不是波普應該這麼講我講白話波普是最簡單的可是問題是政府的財政有沒有辦法一直支應 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
236.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以目前的狀況來看還是樂觀的啦因為是這樣齁 鐵塔的衙門流水的關就是說許民村撐了6年離職了那都是撥補嘛提出唯一的改革方向就是撥補那你現在也說撥補那到底你們那最少你們要去精算說明年撥補多少後年撥補多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
266.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
284.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
對財政的對整個中央政府預算的衝擊多少我相信一個保險保險人口超過1000萬在台灣占比那麼高的情況下你們要撥補可能藍綠白沒有委員敢說不 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
291.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
316.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
可是問題是你們最少也必須要去算出來說到底到了哪一年變成我們搶救的不是勞保年金是中央政府總預算懂我的意思嗎其實你想想看我們才撥補一千兩百一千三百億我們現在的政府總預算是三兆一千億就是我們的政府的這個會逐年提高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
347.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我當然知道現在一千多億可是搞不好三年以後要變成三千億還不至於啦還不至於我們這個我們都有我們有去去精算過這些數字啦對所以以目前政府的財政來講還是相對樂觀的我們是絕對有能力撥補的所以就是就是除了撥補以外並沒有其他的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
366.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們希望另外一個如果勞基法54條這一個所謂的我們合意延退其實延退也是一個符合現在中高齡就業的趨勢這是一個在現在也許勉強 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
368.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
是社會可以接受的一個做法可是呢我們也是希望能夠先從這個雙方合意柔性的延退方式來下手這樣子總算是還講了一個延退不過延退呢對於整個老保基金的危機其實是杯水車薪就是說影響沒有很大還有沒有其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
398.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
今天就是你把你想得到的都講一講 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
400.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我能講的就是這樣了因為說真的當然你想想看我們還有包括政府的財政政府的經濟發展的好也是一個很重要的因素啦所以你看我們撥補1300億下去我們歷年我們累積撥補了3870億嘛那我們是下去再繼續進行投資的當然我們的經濟發展的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
427.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
454.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對,我們經濟發展得好每年收益率現在是14%、15%所以我們像去年我們去年到今年8月我們賺了1300億等於是我們撥補了兩次如果是一種我們都撥補每年1300億來算今年一到八月就有1300億基金的收益本來就是基金的來源了基金的投資收益本來就是基金來源我們的勞保的基金是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
479.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這是一個整體我們要整體來看待啦就是說你不要只從收入多少支出多少這樣去看我們有多元的收入欸我們有投資的收益不是現在就是現在就是賣一些不夠所以才要撥撥補嘛部長你懂我的意思嗎你現在不用再去再去講其他的基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
480.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
480.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
獲得獲得獲得獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
502.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我這一句話我倒不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我覺得怎麼讓怎麼讓讓勞保健全化然後讓勞工安心才是一個好的政府你說經濟的發展假如沒有辦法直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
551.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
576.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
直接導致勞保可以健全的改革發展然後讓退休的勞工我剛剛講過他的投保人數幾乎佔了台灣的半數一個影響面這麼大的東西那今天看起來就是就是部長目前的想法也就只有波普啦波普我剛剛講過我已經有幫你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
580.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
594.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
幫你們提案齁要把基金的來源包括政府的撥補那我們也希望執政黨可以支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
595.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
政府負擔最終支付責任這樣子的法律修正因為勞工辛苦了一輩子到最後現在領的錢已經夠少了我今天實驗的關係還沒有跟你討論到目前領的再搭配通貨膨脹 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
623.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不過我還是要提醒部長就是假如說勞動部就是對於勞保年改的政策方向就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
641.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
645.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
一直以來都是政府撥補,那我覺得這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決了。 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:56:59 - 13:07:51 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【10月16日及17日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
1324 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
楊委員曜：（12時57分）謝謝主席，請何部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請何部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
楊委員曜：部長好。部長今天做業務報告，我覺得勞動部現在可能最主要的業務就是我們要面對勞保的財務問題，我今天簡要的跟部長來探討幾個問題。第一個，基於政府施政的連貫性跟一致性，有幾個許前部長曾經講過的政策宣示，我先來確認一下。許前部長曾經講過，勞保年金縱使掉了烏紗帽他也要做，部長你有沒有這種決心？不過他有這個決心也是他到卸任都沒有做，你有沒有決心？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，是關於勞保年改的問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
楊委員曜：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
何部長佩珊：因為我們現在都已經用預算撥補，然後再落實改革，這其實就是改革的一環，可是我要跟委員強調，這個所謂的勞保年改，在我的內涵裡面是絕對不包括砍年金的啦，這個是我的前提啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
楊委員曜：絕對不包括砍年金？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，這是我的原則。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
楊委員曜：這個好像也是大家的原則。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，就在不砍年金的前提下，我們來進行勞保的改革，其中最能夠做的第一件事就是撥補，我們今年的預算也編進去了，再繼續1,300億。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
楊委員曜：你們就是一直撥補，然後也不修法，基金的來源其實法定並沒有政府撥補。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
何部長佩珊：就是您講的撥補入法。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
楊委員曜：對，我已經提案了。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，這當然我們尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
楊委員曜：部長，你既然直接就跳到這裡，我就直接問，你的概念裡面不砍年金，我講不砍年金可能是大家的最大共識，那不砍年金，你覺得你要怎麼推動改革？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
何部長佩珊：所以我的改革就是撥補。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
楊委員曜：或者我直接問好了，明年政府撥補多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
何部長佩珊：1,300億。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
楊委員曜：後年呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
何部長佩珊：後年一樣維持這樣的水準或是更多。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
楊委員曜：大後年呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，我們要持續性的撥補。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
楊委員曜：現在最大的問題是大家認為退休勞工領的年金就臺灣目前的生活物價指數而言已經算偏低了，如果要再減少…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
何部長佩珊：真的不可能。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
楊委員曜：可能馬上變成社會救助的一部分，要去找衛福部領錢。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
楊委員曜：所以還是只有撥補？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
何部長佩珊：撥補就是最主要的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
楊委員曜：不是，我講白話，撥補是最簡單的，問題是政府的財政有沒有辦法一直支應？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
何部長佩珊：以目前的狀況來看，還是樂觀的啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
楊委員曜：鐵打的衙門，流水的官啊！許銘春撐了6年，離職了，都是撥補嘛！提出的唯一改革方向就是撥補，現在你也是說撥補，至少你們要去精算明年撥補多少、後年撥補多少，對整個中央政府預算的衝擊是多少。我相信保險人口超過1,000萬，在臺灣占比那麼高的情況下，你們要撥補，可能藍綠白沒有委員敢說不，問題是你們最少也必須要算出，到底哪一年會變成我們搶救的不是勞保年金，而是中央政府總預算，懂我的意思嗎？懂我的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，其實你想想看，我們才撥補1,300億，而現在的政府總預算是3兆1,000億，就是我們政府的…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
楊委員曜：不是、不是，這個會逐年提高的。我當然知道現在是一千多億，但是搞不好三年之後要變成3,000億。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
何部長佩珊：還不至於啦！還不至於啦！委員，我們都精算過這些數字，以目前政府的財政來講，還是相對樂觀，我們是絕對有能力撥補的。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
楊委員曜：除了撥補之外，並沒有其他的想法，部長？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
何部長佩珊：另外一個是勞基法第五十四條所謂的合意延退，其實延退是一個符合現在中高齡就業的趨勢，這是在現在也許勉強，是社會可以接受的一個作法，但我們也是希望能夠先從雙方合意、柔性的延退方式來下手。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
楊委員曜：總算還講了一個延退，不過，延退對於整個勞保基金的危機其實是杯水車薪，影響並沒有很大，還有沒有其他的？今天就是你把你想得到的都講一講？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我能講的就是這樣了。說真的，你想想看，包括政府經濟發展得好也是一個很重要的因素。因此，你看我們撥補1,300億下去，歷年累積撥補了3,870億，其實我們私下也繼續進行投資。當然我們的經濟發展得好，每年收益率現在是14%、15%，像去年到今年的8月，我們就賺了1,300億，等於是我們撥補了2次耶！如果是以每年都撥補1,300億來算，今年的1到8月就有1,300億。不過，當然…… |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
楊委員曜：基金的投資收益本來就是基金的來源。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，委員，我們的勞保基金要整體來看待，也就是說，不要只從收入多少、支出多少去看，我們有多元的收入耶！我們有投資的收益。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
楊委員曜：不是，現在就是那些不夠才需要撥補嘛！部長，你懂我的意思嗎？你不用再去講其他的基金收入來源，現在就是因為這些來源不夠，所以政府才必須要撥補嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，當然就是因為收入不夠，政府才需要撥補。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
楊委員曜：現在你又回去講那些…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
何部長佩珊：不不不，我的意思是撥補就是一個收入的來源嘛！撥補下去，它還可以再創造收益，有收益就又是另外一個收入了，我的意思是這樣子。我是說撥補下去的效益，幾乎是等同於提高費率的效益，以目前總體經濟的成長狀況來看，因此，一個好的政府是很重要的，一個有能力發展經濟的政府，對於勞保是最大的保障，我要這麼講。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
楊委員曜：對這句話我倒不認同，我覺得如何讓勞保健全化、讓勞工安心，才是一個好的政府。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
何部長佩珊：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
楊委員曜：假如經濟發展無法直接導致勞保能夠健全的改革發展，剛剛我講過它的投保人數幾乎占了台灣的半數，一個影響面這麼大的東西，今天看起來部長目前的想法也就只有撥補了。剛剛我講過已經幫你們提案，針對基金的來源，包括政府的撥補，我們也希望執政黨可以支持政府負擔最終支付責任這樣子的法律修正。因為勞工辛苦了一輩子，到最後領的錢已經夠少了，今天礙於時間的關係，還未與你討論到目前領的錢再搭配通貨膨脹，過了十年之後，勞工的退休生活會多麼艱困。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我絕對支持撥補入法的修法，這是沒有問題的。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
楊委員曜：不過，我還是要提醒部長，假如勞動部對於勞保年改的政策方向一直以來就是政府撥補，我覺得這個問題會永遠無法解決。謝謝主席、謝謝部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
主席：好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][1] |
接下來請黃秀芳召委進行詢答。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
362 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-26-4 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
吳春城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
265 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-16 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138601 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138601_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138601_00005 |
| IVOD_ID |
155607 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155607 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-4 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-16T12:56:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-16T13:07:51+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |