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| 委員名稱 |
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謝謝主席那個麻煩有請NCC的主秘NCC黃文哲主秘委員好主秘好請你上來是因為我認為王國中是一個違法任命的代理主委我立場表達的很清楚了好 |
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前兩天兩位民進黨政府提名任命的NCC委員說回首四年在NCC的任期看到的都是全力施展與追求非常了不起政府還買單逗留腐敗跟正媒空氣然後部分委員可以完成業者跟業界交班的任務 |
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你作為NCC的主密啊﹖贊不贊成兩位前NCC委員對NCC沉痛的控訴完全不贊成李立委員說現有的人嚴認沒有正當性政府的做法不僅無法對民意負責還有存在正當性的問題 贊不贊成 |
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我贊成你通通都不贊成沒有關係你捍衛既有體制的決心在全體國人面前展露如一非常的佩服來三立新聞台說我經營減掉這條線最少7年休息來源200%信賴我非常的篤定結果三立這個是新聞 |
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上帝新聞做完了以後北檢直接打臉說沒有他報導的來源根本不是來自檢調所謂200%的信心進行檢調7年從北檢的觀點是胡說八道那如果說從北檢的觀點是胡說八道的話NCC認不認同北檢所做的最後調查的結果 |
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143.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
跟委員報告,這個案件因為已經有民眾在檢舉這個事情了,所以我們已經啟動我們的這些程序,目前我們已經請三例,我們就這一件沒有善盡查證責任這個事實,請他陳述意見。所以你們要查多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
173.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們上次我就在記者會上面已經有議員、也有立委、也有記者問過那我們過去遇到過去的程序的話我們會在...請我...就回答我的問題嘛你上次記者會有記者問我多尊重啊是上次有記者問跟我在這邊請教你這件事情有什麼關係啊所以要多久?兩個月那效率怎麼這麼差? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
174.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
195.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
人家北檢9月9號立案欸9月16號結果就出來了欸人家花7天就處理完欸北檢7天就調查出來了說那個記者胡說八道啊哇 你們NCC要兩個月喔跟北檢比起來NCC效率是不是太差啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
217.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
報告委員我們NCC有他們既定的一個一定要遵守的程序所以你們遵守程序嘛對不對那北九有遵守程序嗎這個不是我能回答的OK好沒關係啦我們就繼續往下看嘛來檢驗一下我們NCC的效率2022年已經有人檢舉囉跟NCC檢舉喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
250.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
孫欣欣委員：那個時候的副主委翁伯忠洩密結果翁伯忠發了一個聲明說來文附件的刑事真正性都尚待審酌如果連刑事真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證什麼叫刑事真正性這個我相信那個主密你應該很清楚來這個來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
277.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個是NCC要調查的事項啊來文附件的刑事真正性確認了沒有所謂的刑事真正性就是說至少要知道說這個人到底是誰發的然後怎麼回事啊不然刑事真正性這個對所以我在問你嘛這個不是NCC該調查的事項嗎所以我問你啊調查到現在刑事真正性跟實質真正性我不需要在這邊解釋給你聽吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
307.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
刑事真正性就是那個LINE是不是真的嘛還是有人批圖偽造變造的嘛這個叫刑事真正性嘛至於那個LINE裡面如果是刑事真正的沒有批圖沒有偽造變造那個LINE的內容那個LINE的內容裡面是不是有人胡說八道那個是實質真正性的問題嘛所以我現在問你啊2022年到現在也兩年多了嘛刑事真正性確認了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
309.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
311.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
請你們政風調查的結果,刑事真正性確認了沒有?連這個都不敢回答喔?刑事真正性確認了沒有?來請 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
332.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
347.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個跟委員回報齁那這個全案就是移送到地檢署去那至於這個賴的真實行政行事真正性呢我們沒有特別去奇怪了連行事真正性都沒有調查喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
349.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
370.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你們政風是在打假球喔?做事做得這麼slappy喔?還是因為調查的去副主委?不敢查?自己包庇自己人?跟委員報告這個有移送到地檢署全部的內容都移送到地檢署去調查所以我問你嘛!刑事真正性確認了沒有?有確認還是沒有確認?有這麼難嗎?這個跟地檢署調查的內容沒有關係啊!刑事真正性確認了沒有?請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
380.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
392.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
確認了沒有?你政風就刑事的真正性有沒有確認?有這麼難回答喔?還是長官坐在這邊不敢答?所以確認了沒有?我在問A你答B喔請問你刑事真正性確認了沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
403.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
418.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
確認了沒有在當時候沒有特別去訪談這個奇怪了所以你們政風是現在處於一個過水的狀態所以你們政風發揮的功能就是過水嘛連形式真正性都沒有去確認喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
420.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
444.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我跟委員報告其實行政調查它有一定的局限所以我問你形式真正性你請當事人來手機拿出來那不就知道是真的還假的嗎你連形式真正性都沒有確認那請問你們政風到底在幹嘛其實這部分應該不會有什麼質疑那等一下喔等一下聽聽聽你說這部分沒有什麼質疑那不對喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
445.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
450.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因為有質疑的是歐伯仲啊!歐伯仲連巡視真相信他都否認啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
452.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
479.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他的聲明你沒看過他說他連刑事真正性都質疑啊那你怎麼會說沒有什麼問題所以我才說我們就全案移給地檢署去做更深論所以我就在問嘛你們政風的存在到底查了什麼東西嘛連刑事的真正性都沒有辦法去確認還是不敢確認還是我們現在政風扮演的角色就是有人投訴政風不查全案移到檢調那要政風幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
480.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那要政風幹嘛?連刑事的真正性都沒有去查喔?相關行政調查 政風是都有調查所以啊 你調查完了 請問刑事真正性有問題沒有問題?奇怪喔 你說行政調查 你們都有調查現在我還沒跟你扯實質真正性欸你連刑事真正性都沒辦法確認 然後你跟我說政風有調查請問查什麼啊?請問查什麼啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
507.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
533.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
可以跟大家說明一下因為我現在完全聽不懂啊政經有查但是形式真正性到現在還搞不清楚這不是很奇怪的事嗎這個LINE是真的還假的有人批圖嗎這個圖是批的嗎當事人找來手機看一下都知道啦這個都是朋友傳給陳建平的截圖啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
535.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
536.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這刑事真正性怎麼會有問題連當事人都沒有約訪連刑事真正性都沒有確認那請問政經在查什麼嗎跟委員報告其實這個賴的截圖的內容我個人認為他不會可能對沒有這 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
556.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
580.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我覺得他不好意思請他回答你要他代打我沒有阻止你這個截圖我們不認為可能是不認為是有這個說謊或是他們可能是在那時候你不認為說這個截圖有說謊代表是你確認這個刑事真正性是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
582.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
600.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為裴偉跟陳建平之間的對話我不認為他們之間有什麼作家那所以我們沒辦法釐清他們兩個講話的真實性我們一樣一樣來嘛那不對啊代理你們的副主委現在的代理主委是連形式的真正性都要爭執啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
601.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
624.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我有說錯嗎政政室的立場就是移送地檢署調查對嘛所以我就說嘛我們沒辦法去辨別那你們地檢署到底你們政風到底在做在做什麼嘛聯席室的真正性現在終於確認不認為有問題那奇怪囉NCC委員欸向業者通風報信欸這麼嚴重的事情欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
628.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
656.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
結果NCC搞了兩年喔搞了兩年啊搞到今天都還沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代而這個涉案的當事人啊正在違法的擔任啊代理主委這個就頗有傳給陳建平的截圖啊形式真正性我都去確認了啊我問了本人啊說人家質疑你那個是P圖是假的啊他手機拿來給我看啊是真的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
657.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
681.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是真的啊那問題就來了嘛那現在的NCC到底在幹嘛現在NCC到底在幹嘛2022年的事現在已經2024年了現在已經2024年了但2024年還是一團迷霧在NCC內部的政風查你們自己的長官查成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
683.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
701.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
跟委員報告這個行政調查他已經有侷限性那至於這裏培偉跟陳建民之間的對話內容的真實性必須再由司法做更深入的調查政風是已經進了行政調查的方式現在只有兩種可能嘛一個是培偉唬爛說謊啊對不對培偉唬爛說要給執照是蔡英文交付的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
713.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
738.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
培偉也唬爛所以我國中傳了很多訊息給他第一種可能是培偉從頭唬爛到尾第二種可能是他講的都是真的只是沒有人敢辦培偉到底是不是唬爛這件事情為什麼重要你們針對於媒體大股東不用審視格性來請祖密這個就不關政風了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
741.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
765.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在媒體大股東要不要審查資格性?要要嘛那國安建來了喔一個喔按照民進黨政府的說法在外面假傳總統指揮胡說八道的陪委適合當媒體的大股東嗎?這部分不在我們的審查方案等一下先停一下剛剛你不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
766.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
795.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
媒體股東的資格性是ACC要處理的怎麼又不在你們審查的範圍因為你在談的是我在談的是他的經營資格的問題而不是在談他個人人品的問題沒有沒有 這個跟人品沒有關係喔企業經營者你在媒體大股東的資格性他的誠信不是你們審查的標準喔真的不是嗎你要不要回想一下你自己2012年的時候的主張是什麼你要不要回想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
797.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
798.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
當了官換的位置就換了腦袋喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
800.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
822.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不是嗎你現在在談的是說我在問的是啦第一個媒體大股東的事格性是不是NCC要審查的標的是不是是嘛第二個這個媒體的大股東他的誠信有沒有問題是不是NCC在審查有關於媒體負責人事格性的時候要斟酌的事項是我們會斟酌但是所以我現在就要問嘛所以我現在就要問你們有斟酌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
827.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
846.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你在談的是一些傳言的問題我怎麼去處理那個傳言先停一下 這不是傳言剛剛在後面的那一位他已經證實了這個刑事的真正性這個是培瑋發出來的簡訊他說全案已經送地檢署調查單你奇怪了 你要把所有的東西要推給地檢署 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
847.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
865.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
媒體大股東的事格性是地檢要調查的事項嗎?不是對嘛 是你們NCC要處理的嘛那我現在就在質疑啊 有處理嗎?有處理嗎?這就是我的問題嘛我們會在審查的會去審酌這件事情現在我的質疑是 你們有審酌嗎?我們有審酌對 那你審酌的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
870.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
888.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
培偉發出來的簡訊只有兩個結果嘛一個他講的是真的他講的是真的翁柏宗就有問題嘛一個他講的是假的他講的是假的那培偉這種信口開河的人還可以當媒體負責人喔不過培偉現在他只是股東並不是經營人奇怪了剛剛我問你的是大股東的適格性嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
888.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
891.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
大股東是買股的問題大股東如果假設是經營人的話我們才會去依照我們的負責人的那個管理辦法去審查他的經營上的問題你剛才談的是誠信的問題誠信的問題跟股東這股東是沒有關聯的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
907.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
931.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
剛剛我在說媒體大股東的事格性不是在講媒體負責人的事格性所有的問題在這裡全程錄音錄影全部都有記錄時間的關係啦我只講最後一句話從今天整個詢答的內容大家就可以清楚的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
932.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
935.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
為什麼這兩位NCC的前委員提出這個沉痛的控訴? |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:08:12 - 13:23:54 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
1151 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
黃委員國昌：（13時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請NCC的主秘。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請NCC黃文哲主秘。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
黃委員國昌：主秘好。請你上來是因為我認為翁柏宗是一個違法任命的代理主委，我立場表達得很清楚了。前兩天兩位民進黨政府提名任命的NCC委員說：回首4年在NCC的任期，看到的都是權力施展與追求。非常了不起啊！又說政府還買單墮落腐敗跟政媒共棲，然後部分委員可以完成業者跟業界交辦的任務。你作為NCC的主秘，贊不贊成兩位前NCC委員對NCC沉痛地控訴？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：完全不贊成。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
黃委員國昌：完全不贊成，好。林麗雲委員說：現有的人延任沒有正當性，政府的作法不僅無法對民意負責，還存在正當性的問題。贊不贊成？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：不贊成。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
黃委員國昌：你通通都不贊成，好，沒有關係。你捍衛既有體制的決心，在全體國人面前展露無遺，非常地佩服。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][1] |
接下來，三立新聞台記者說：我經營檢調這條線最少7年，消息來源200%信賴，我非常地篤定。結果三立喔！這個是新聞喔！三立新聞做完了以後，北檢直接打臉說沒有，它報導的來源根本不是來自檢調，所謂200%的信心、經營檢調7年，從北檢的觀點是胡說八道。如果說從北檢的觀點是胡說八道的話，NCC認不認同北檢所做的最後調查的結果？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，這個案件因為已經有民眾在檢舉這個事情，所以我們已經啟動我們的這些程序…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
黃委員國昌：不會啊...... |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：目前我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
黃委員國昌：北檢不是幫你調查完了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：目前我們已經請三立，我們就這一件沒有善盡查證責任這個事實，請它陳述意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你們要查多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：上一次我在記者會上面已經有記者問過，依照過去的程序的話，我們會在…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
黃委員國昌：就回答我的問題嘛！你上次記者會有記者問，我都尊重，上次有記者問跟我在這邊請教你這件事情有什麼關係！所以要多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：2個月。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
黃委員國昌：效率怎麼這麼差？人家北檢9月9號立案，9月16號結果就出來了，人家花7天就處理完，北檢7天就調查出來了，說那個記者胡說八道，你們NCC要2個月喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
黃委員國昌：跟北檢比起來，NCC效率是不是太差？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：報告委員，我們NCC有既定的一定要遵守的程序。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你們遵守程序嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
黃委員國昌：那北檢有遵守程序嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：這個不是我能回答的。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
黃委員國昌：OK，好，沒關係。我們就繼續往下看，檢驗一下我們NCC的效率，2022年已經有人檢舉了，跟NCC檢舉喔！說NCC委員，那個時候的副主委翁柏宗洩密，結果翁柏宗發了一個聲明，說來文附件的形式真正性都尚待審酌，如果連形式真正性都無法確定，就沒有具體事證。什麼叫形式真正性？這個我相信主秘你應該很清楚，這個來文附件的形式真正性確認了沒有？這個是NCC要調查的事項，來文附件的形式真正性確認了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：所謂的形式真正性是指至少要知道這到底是誰發的，然後怎麼回事。不然形式真正性這個我不知道該怎麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
黃委員國昌：對，所以我在問你嘛！這個不是NCC該調查的事項嗎？所以我問你調查到現在，形式真正性跟實質真正性，我不需要在這邊解釋給你聽吧？形式真正性就是那個LINE是不是真的嘛！還是有人P圖、偽造、變造的嘛！這個叫形式真正性。至於那個LINE裡面，如果是形式真正的，沒有P圖、沒有偽造、變造那個LINE的內容，那個LINE的內容裡面是不是有人胡說八道，那個是實質真正性的問題嘛！所以我現在問你，2022年到現在也兩年多了，形式真正性確認了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：其實是這樣子，因為全案已經交由地檢在做調查當中了，那這個過程其實我們政風也調查過，同時也跟廉政署回報過…… |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以你們政風調查的結果，形式真正性確認了沒有？連這個都不敢回答喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是不是我請我們政風主任來回答？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
黃委員國昌：形式真正性確認了沒有？來，請。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
簡主任國興：跟委員回報，全案就是移送到地檢署去，至於這個LINE的形式真正性，我們沒有特別去…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪了！連形式真正性都沒有調查，你們政風是在打假球喔？做事做得這麼sloppy喔，還是因為調查的是副主委，不敢查，自己包庇自己人？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
簡主任國興：跟委員報告，這個有移送到地檢署，這全部的內容都移送到地檢署去調查，不是沒有查。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以我問你嘛！形式真正性確認了沒有？有確認還是沒有確認有這麼難嗎？這個跟地檢署調查的內容沒有關係！形式真正性確認了沒有？請回答！確認了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
簡主任國興：我們就是送地檢署去…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
黃委員國昌：你政風就形式的真正性有沒有確認有這麼難回答喔？還是長官坐在這邊不敢答？ |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
簡主任國興：不會。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以確認了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
簡主任國興：就跟委員報告，我們就是移送到地檢署。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
黃委員國昌：我在問A你答B喔？請問你形式真正性確認了沒有？確認了沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
簡主任國興：在當時候沒有特別去訪談這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪了，所以你們政風室現在是處於一個過水的狀態？所以你們政風發揮的功能就是過水嘛！連形式真正性都沒有去確認喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
簡主任國興：跟委員報告，其實行政調查有一定的侷限…… |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以我問你形式真正性，你請當事人來，手機拿出來，那不就知道是真的還假的嗎？你連形式真正性都沒有確認，那請問你們政風到底在幹嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
簡主任國興：其實這部分應該不會有什麼質疑…… |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
黃委員國昌：等一下，停停停，你說這部分沒有什麼質疑，那不對喔！因為有質疑的是翁柏宗，翁柏宗連形式真正性都否認啊！他的聲明你沒看過喔？他說他連形式真正性都質疑，那你怎麼會說沒有什麼問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
簡主任國興：所以我才說我們就全案移給地檢署去做更深入的…… |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以我就在問嘛，你們政風的存在到底查了什麼東西？連形式的真正性都沒有辦法去確認，還是不敢確認，還是我們現在政風扮演的角色就是有人投訴，政風不查，全案移到檢調？那要政風幹嘛？連形式的真正性都沒有去查喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
簡主任國興：相關行政調查政風室都有調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以啊，你調查完了，請問形式真正性有問題沒有問題？奇怪，你說行政調查你們都有調查，現在我還沒跟你扯實質真正性耶，你連形式真正性都沒辦法確認，然後你跟我說政風有調查，請問查什麼啊？可以跟大家說明一下，因為我現在完全聽不懂，政風有查，但是形式真正性到現在還搞不清楚，這個不是很奇怪的事嗎？這個LINE是真的還假的？有人P圖嗎？這個圖是P的嗎？當事人找來，手機看一下就知道啦！這個都是裴偉傳給陳建平的截圖，這形式真正性怎麼會有問題？連當事人都沒有約訪，連形式真正性都沒有確認，那請問政風在查什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
簡主任國興：跟委員報告，其實這個LINE的截圖的內容，我個人認為它不會可能……我覺得…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：因為這個，跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
黃委員國昌：不好意思，請他回答，你讓他代答，我沒有阻止你喔。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
簡主任國興：這個截圖我們不認為是有說謊或是他們可能是當時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
黃委員國昌：等一下喔！你不認為這個截圖有說謊，代表是你確認這個形式真正性嘛！是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
簡主任國興：因為裴偉跟陳建平之間的對話，我不認為他們之間有什麼作假，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪了…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
簡主任國興：所以我們沒辦法釐清他們兩個講話的真實性，所以…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
黃委員國昌：我們一樣一樣來嘛！那不對啊，到你們的副主委，現在的代理主委，是連形式的真正性都要爭執啊！我有說錯嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
簡主任國興：政風室的立場就是移送地檢署調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就說嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
簡主任國興：我們沒辦法去辨別…… |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
黃委員國昌：你們政風到底在做什麼？連形式的真正性現在終於確認、不認為有問題，那奇怪囉！NCC委員向業者通風報信，這麼嚴重的事情，結果NCC搞了2年，搞到今天都還沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代，而這個涉案的當事人正在違法地擔任代理主委！這個就是裴偉傳給陳建平的截圖，形式真正性我都去確認了啊，我問了本人，說人家質疑你那個是P圖、是假的，他手機拿來給我看，是真的啊！那問題就來了，現在的NCC到底在幹嘛？2022年的事，現在已經2024年了，到2024年還是一團迷霧，NCC內部的政風查你們自己的長官查成這個樣子喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
簡主任國興：跟委員報告，行政調查一定有侷限性，至於裴偉跟陳建平之間的對話內容的真實性，必須再由司法做更深入的調查，政風室已經盡了行政調查的…… |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
黃委員國昌：好，現在只有兩種可能，一個是裴偉唬爛、說謊，對不對？裴偉唬爛，說要給執照是蔡英文交付的任務，裴偉也唬爛說翁柏宗傳了很多訊息給他，第一種可能是裴偉從頭唬爛到尾。第二種可能是他講的都是真的，只是沒有人敢辦，那裴偉到底是不是唬爛，這件事情為什麼重要？你們針對媒體的大股東不用審適格性喔？來，請主秘，這個就不關政風了，媒體的大股東要不要審查適格性？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：要。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
黃委員國昌：要嘛，那國安案件來囉，一個按照民進黨政府的說法，在外面假傳總統旨意，胡說八道的裴偉，適合當媒體的大股東嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：這一部分不在我們的審查範圍。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
黃委員國昌：等一下，先停一下，剛剛你不是說媒體股東的適格性是NCC要處理的，怎麼又不在你們審查的範圍？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：因為我們在談的是他經營資格的問題，而不是在談他個人人品的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，這個跟人品沒有關係，企業經營者、媒體大股東的適格性，他的誠信不是你們審查的標準喔？真的不是嗎？你要不要回想一下，你自己在2012年時的主張是什麼？你要不要回想一下？當了官，換了位子就換了腦袋喔？不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：你現在在談的是說…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
黃委員國昌：我在問的是，第一個，媒體大股東的適格性是不是NCC要審查的標的？是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
黃委員國昌：第二個，這個媒體的大股東，他的誠信有沒有問題，是不是NCC在審查有關媒體負責人適格性的時候要斟酌的事項？ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是，我們會斟酌，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
黃委員國昌：對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：但是委員你剛才在談的是…… |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
黃委員國昌：所以我現在就在問嘛，你們有斟酌嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：你在談的是一些傳言的問題，我怎麼去處理那個傳言？ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下、等一下，先停一下，這不是傳言，剛剛站在後面的那一位已經證實了這個形式的真正性，這個是裴偉發出來的簡訊。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：他說全案已經送地檢署調查當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪了，你又把所有的東西推給地檢署。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：我…… |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
黃委員國昌：媒體大股東的適格性是地檢要調查的事項嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
黃委員國昌：對嘛，是你們NCC要處理的嘛。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
黃委員國昌：我現在就在質疑啊，有處理嗎？這就是我的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：我們會在審查的時候去審酌這些事情，但是委員你剛才在…… |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
黃委員國昌：對，現在我的質疑是你們有審酌嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：我們有審酌，但你剛才講的…… |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
黃委員國昌：對，你審酌的結果，裴偉發出來的簡訊只有兩個結果，一個是他講的是真的，他講的是真的，翁柏宗就有問題嘛；一個是他講的是假的，他講的是假的，那裴偉這種信口開河的人還可以當媒體負責人喔？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：裴偉現在只是股東，並不是經營的人。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
黃委員國昌：奇怪了，剛剛我問你的是大股東的適格性，剛剛你不是說大股東的適格性嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：大股東是買股的問題，大股東如果是經營人的話，我們才會依照負責人的管理辦法去審查他經營上的問題，你現在談的是誠信的問題，誠信的問題跟股東是沒有關聯的。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
黃委員國昌：先停一下啦，剛剛我在說媒體大股東的適格性，不是在講媒體負責人的適格性，所有的問題在這裡，全程錄音、錄影，全部都有紀錄。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
黃主任秘書文哲：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
黃委員國昌：時間的關係，我只講最後一句話，從今天整個詢答的內容，大家就可以清楚地了解，為什麼這兩位NCC的前委員會提出這麼沉痛的控訴。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
主席：好，謝謝黃委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][1] |
NCC的政風，抱歉，我在那邊聽，因為我們等你們的答案等了2年，是這種答案，「形式真正性」不是在回答司法的問題，司法有沒有人圖利，或者有沒有人幹什麼是另外一回事，你們要回答的是你們用行政權去對抗檢舉人，你們當時的副主委用你們的公權力、以機關的名義發一個新聞稿，新聞稿是說我迴避的理由是因為很高尚，因為這個東西沒有形式的真正性，不需要按照你們的要點第八點，有偏頗或者利益衝突，所以根本沒有這個問題，因為它形式的真正性都還沒有，所以副主委是高道德標準，自己迴避。現在你們要回應你們自己的、行政的新聞稿啊，問了半天，問你新聞稿到底發得對不對，你們要去檢討，這跟司法完全無關，如果查出來是有行式真正性，他就不是高道德標準回應啊。你要回應立法院，你要回應很多的民眾，你要回應當時去檢舉的人，你羞辱了別人，對不對？形式真正性到底是還不是嘛？是就是嘛，經過2年查出來，他傳的簡訊內容到底是不是涉及違法，那後面再去弄，我是覺得這個部分你們事後要說清楚。謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][2] |
接下來有請羅智強委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
88 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-23-4 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138001_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、
內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行
專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138001_00001 |
| IVOD_ID |
155218 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155218 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-23-4 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T13:08:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T13:23:54+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |