| IVOD_ID |
155179 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155179 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T12:05:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T12:16:39+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:17 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| video_url |
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顧部長立雄 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
4.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
主席有請顧部長請顧部長先轉一個題目你上台以後強調說不講第一集你叫智慧群 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
此外權有共軍如果攻擊國軍在航機建設設等攻擊台灣的本島外離島未經許可進入12里領空領海現在有一個大家外界有關心的一個題目美國的國會議員特別有提到這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
71.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
就是中國大陸如果發動對美國的網路的這個攻擊攻擊他的基礎設施等同宣戰我請教顧部長我們中華民國這個地方我們對於老共的網路攻擊我們要不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
82.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
也是用這樣的一個概念要不要apply到上面的時候如果他攻擊我們的基礎設施特別很多專家都在講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
83.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
其實老公要打台灣不需要真的軍力打他是要癱瘓我們的基礎設施、電廠、水庫等等的這些重要的一個基礎設施就等同就癱瘓了你沒有電怎麼去維生系統呢?沒有電怎麼辦法去運作整個的社會呢?所以網工如果攻擊到基礎設施請問部長你要不要把他視同為學長? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
133.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
各位委員報告,這個罔工我們的基礎設施,而且癱瘓我們的基礎設施,特別是關鍵的基礎設施,那比如說我們的電,我們的水,讓它整個癱瘓掉的話,那就這個部分我們認為它是一個重要的預警的徵喉。 |
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134.242 |
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155.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就如同俄羅斯在對烏克蘭之前他在進行這一個進入到政治作戰的階段之前他也大量的去進行罔工來試圖癱瘓這個關鍵基礎設施所以我想這一個部分各國都把這個東西視為一個非常重大的一個爭吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
174.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我記得應該是那個美國吧拜登他對於破壞這個由從西岸到東岸的那個油管的那個整個的設施拜登也講了重話說對於這樣子的一種癱瘓這樣的一個基礎設施他沒有辦法能夠容忍 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
177.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我想我們這邊的話對於這個癱瘓我們這些很非常關鍵因素是我們會作為重大的一個預警徵口的一個項目來視為它是不是有後續的這一個相關的行動你還沒有回答問題啊算不算宣戰能不能等於宣戰還是說宣戰潛重可不可以這樣講我現在只能夠說我們會把它作為一個非常重大的一個預警徵口來做研判不等於宣戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
220.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
他這樣某程度宣戰喔就等於打了嘛直接來講的話打的話世界法輪大用這個幫你癱瘓就等於等於打了那不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
221.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
239.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我現在還是回答這個委員的問題就是說我們會把攻擊我們的關鍵基礎視同一個重大的預警徵喉因為他如果對我們做這樣的一個攻擊他一定會有下一步的一個行動的可能性那我們的反制是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
240.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們的反制當然我們就...我們要往路攻擊!反過來!要抗爭、attack!是不是?不要!你好,我是中天憶的常某長。是。向委員報告有關於這個網關部分我們有我們自己的這個國防的治安的一個協防的團隊那針對這樣子...你講這些聽不到啦!我時間快到了!你不要跟我講一些五四三我就問你你怎麼回應啊!我剛剛就舉例!有沒有! |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
275.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我沒有辦法在這裏回答這樣的一個請問你中國大陸網軍有沒有能力談話我們的關鍵設施有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我想我們也有足夠的應對他癱瘓我們這個相關的關鍵基礎設施的一個協防措施跟治安的防護系統存在他要癱瘓我們也不是那麼容易的所以他做不到是不是我只能夠說我們一直持續的強化我們的治安防護能力在這樣情況之下請問你我已經很關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
349.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們國防部特別你在任內有沒有可能要成立資通電軍就是第四軍組或者俗稱的網軍正式編制有沒有這樣的規劃也不能講到是網軍吧不是那個網軍這個網軍不是那種網軍我們已經有資通電軍了有嗎?有啊有編制嗎?有啊有多少人?我就是常務長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
352.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
353.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
五、六千多人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
358.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
363.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我問的是入海空往這個是不是這個意思?還是通? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
387.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
391.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
最後一個問題我想大家今天關心的這個題目這是這一次雷神的事情美國司法部已經判雷神要賠2億5美金了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們大概可以獲得多少對不對我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是我們軍售然後呢我們都是跟美國政府好像你沒有辦法任何作為他賣你貴的你就吃了怎麼樣大家都知道台灣買的都是幾乎全世界最貴的然後你就是一句話國防部長就一句話因為對的是美國政府所以言下之意就是我們毫無談判籌碼是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
441.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我想跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器所以美國有相當嚴謹的這個價格分析的制度也有相當嚴謹的集合制度所以如果說雷神把我們當盤子那如果你用同樣的道理那美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當盤子我想這是第一點第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
465.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
466.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
美國還沒有告訴我們最後的這個可以結案的時間點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
519.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
另外一個在這裡面的就是他高報的這裡面有個案子就是愛國者飛彈1792億後來結一款182億美國人不給我們然後後來就叫我們再追加買他的愛國者飛彈這個事情你剛才已經講了這是違反相關的程序你們的防空飛彈指揮部 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
543.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
547.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為．並備質詢。二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
572.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
597.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好,這個最後還是一句話了齁你剛才就一推奧巴伊胡說因為是軍售不是商售面對的是美國政府美國政府就相信他所以我們就沒有任何的智慧的餘地大家都覺得說買貴了買貴了因為軍售政府對政府你一點批量都沒有變這個樣子我沒有感覺國防部可以做一點事情嗎可以買便宜一點的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
599.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
620.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我想美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業在做這個……是啊,你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部嘛,就變這樣而已啊。你就沒有角色啦。我們面對的是國防部、美國的政府。美國政府要對我們負完全的責任。包括會計、集合的責任。阿你跟美國政府有沒有討價、討價還價的空間嗎?我就問你這一點吧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
624.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
635.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們剛剛已經講過了如果說就國內外的這個歷史採購的這個價格那如果說有偏離的一個部分的話我們跟美國會進行交涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
636.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
637.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們希望能夠在今年的第4季能夠到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
662.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
662.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2024-10-07T12:05:22.429000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.090000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席，有請顧部長。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.090000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
請顧部長。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2024-10-07T12:05:24.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
賴委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.610000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.870000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
部長好，先轉一個題目。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2024-10-07T12:05:23.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2024-10-07T12:06:24.311000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
你上臺以後強調不講第一擊，你叫自衛權……共軍如果攻擊國軍在航機艦、設施等；攻擊臺灣本島、外離島；未經許可進入12浬領空、領海……現在有一個外界關心的題目，美國國會議員特別有提到這樣的概念，就是中國大陸如果發動對美國的網路攻擊，攻擊它的基礎設施，等同宣戰。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.936 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2024-10-07T12:06:24.311000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2024-10-07T12:06:36.739000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
我請教顧部長，我們中華民國這個地方對於老共的網路攻擊，我們要不要也是用這樣的概念？ |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2024-10-07T12:06:37.220000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2024-10-07T12:06:58.239000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
要不要apply到上面說如果它攻擊我們的基礎設施，特別很多專家都在講，其實老共要打臺灣，不需要真的軍力打，它只要癱瘓我們的基礎設施、電廠、水庫等等的這些重要的基礎設施，等同就癱瘓了。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.94 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2024-10-07T12:06:59.019000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2024-10-07T12:07:04.903000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
你沒有電，維生系統沒有電，怎麼有辦法去運作整個社會呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2024-10-07T12:07:05.563000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2024-10-07T12:07:12.928000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
所以網攻如果攻擊到基礎設施，請問部長你要不要把它視同為宣戰？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2024-10-07T12:07:15.115000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2024-10-07T12:07:35.342000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
跟委員報告，網攻我們的基礎設施，而且癱瘓我們的基礎設施，特別是關鍵的基礎設施，比如說我們的電、我們的水，讓它整個癱瘓掉的話，就這個部分我們認為它是一個重要預警的徵候。 |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2024-10-07T12:07:36.242000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2024-10-07T12:07:56.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
就如同俄羅斯在對烏克蘭，它在進入到政治作戰的階段之前，它也大量地進行網攻來試圖癱瘓關鍵基礎設施，所以我想各國都把這個部分視為一個非常重大的徵候。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.868 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2024-10-07T12:07:59.266000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:16.117000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
我記得應該是美國對於破壞從西岸到東岸整個油管的設施，拜登也講了重話，說對於癱瘓這樣的基礎設施，他沒有辦法容忍。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.98 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:19.899000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:33.342000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
我想我們這邊的話，對於癱瘓我們這些非常關鍵的基礎設施，我們會視為一個重大預警徵候的項目，來視為它是不是有後續的相關行動。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.839 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:33.342000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:35.143000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
你還沒有回答問題，算不算宣戰？ |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:36.703000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:38.203000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
是不是等於宣戰？ |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:38.203000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:39.604000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
還是說宣戰前奏？ |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:40.544000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:41.724000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
可不可以這樣講？ |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:41.724000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:46.465000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
我現在只能夠說我們會把它作為一個非常重大的預警徵候來做研判。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.966 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:47.706000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:48.166000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
不等於宣戰？ |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:52.302000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:53.183000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
這樣某種程度就是宣戰了哦！ |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.583 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:54.165000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2024-10-07T12:08:55.487000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
就等於打了嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2024-10-07T12:08:56.109000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:02.119000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
直接來講的話，打的話，世界反應大，用這個把你癱瘓，就等於打了，不是嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.897 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:03.565000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:19.921000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
我現在還是回答委員的問題，就是說我們會把攻擊我們的關鍵基礎設施視同一個重大的預警徵候，因為它如果對我們做這樣的攻擊，它一定會有下一步行動的可能性。 |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.928 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:20.041000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:21.443000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
那我們的反制是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:22.455000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:23.116000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
我們的反制？ |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:23.756000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:24.737000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
當然我們就要…… |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:24.837000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:27.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
我們也網路攻擊？ |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:27.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:31.942000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
反過來，要counterattack，是不是？ |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.65 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:32.143000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:32.643000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
要不要？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:32.643000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:33.643000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
好，你要不要…… |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.2 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
陳參謀長俊良 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:33.003000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:34.905000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
委員好，我是資通電軍參謀長。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.333 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
陳參謀長俊良 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:35.085000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:43.972000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
向委員報告，有關於網攻部分，我們有自己國防資安協防的團隊，那針對這樣的部分…… |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.853 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:44.092000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:44.873000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
你講這個聽不懂啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:45.013000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:47.214000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
我的時間快到了，你不要跟我講一些五四三！ |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.944 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:48.195000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:49.376000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
我就問你怎麼回應啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:49.896000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:50.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
我剛剛就舉例，它網攻我們，我們網攻他們，可以嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
0.3 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:50.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:51.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
我就問你，我們有沒有這個能力？ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0.231 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
陳參謀長俊良 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:51.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:52.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
報告委員，我們有我們的機制在…… |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:52.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:53.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
我們有沒有這個能力啦？ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:53.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:54.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
癱瘓他們的基礎設施，有沒有這個能力？ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:54.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:55.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
請問你。部長？ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:52.519000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:54.020000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
委員，我想我沒有辦法在這裡回答這樣的一個…… |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.737 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:54.020000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:56.802000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
好，那請問你，中國他們的網軍有沒有能力癱瘓我們的關鍵設施？ |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.731 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2024-10-07T12:09:56.842000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2024-10-07T12:09:57.182000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
有沒有？ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:21.834000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2024-10-07T12:10:33.878000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
我想我們也有足夠的應對，如果它癱瘓我們相關的關鍵基礎設施，有協防措施跟資安的防護系統存在，它要癱瘓我們也不是那麼容易啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:35.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2024-10-07T12:10:35.999000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
所以它做不到，是不是？ |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:37.879000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2024-10-07T12:10:41.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
我只能夠說我們一直持續地強化我們的資安防護能力。好。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:42.081000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2024-10-07T12:10:56.551000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
在這樣的情況之下，請問你外界很關心的，在你的任內，我們國防部有沒有可能成立資通電軍，就是第四軍種，或者是俗稱的網軍正式編制？ |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.821 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:57.271000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2024-10-07T12:10:58.852000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
有沒有這樣的規劃？ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2024-10-07T12:10:58.852000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:00.333000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
也不能講那是網軍吧？ |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:01.013000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:03.834000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
不是那個網軍啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:03.834000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:05.295000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
這個網軍不是那種網軍。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:05.295000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:08.157000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
我們已經有資通電軍了。有嗎？有啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:08.717000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:09.937000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
有編制嗎？有啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:10.177000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:10.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
有多少人？ |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:10.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:11.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
你就是？ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
陳參謀長俊良 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:10.698000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:11.058000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
我就是參謀長。 |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:11.058000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:12.898500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
你們有多少人？ |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
陳參謀長俊良 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:12.898500+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:14.739000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
我們現在整個的編制大概六千餘人。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:14.739000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:15.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
六千多人？是。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:15.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:16.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
那很多哦！ |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:16.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:17.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
大陸多少人？ |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:17.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:18.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
它是一個兵種，還沒有成為軍種，但是有相當程度的…… |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:18.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:19.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
不太一樣啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:19.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:20.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
不等於第四軍吧？ |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:20.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:21.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
按照國軍的術語來講的話，它不是軍種，它是一個兵種，直屬國防部。 |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:21.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:22.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
對，那是底下的嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:20.922000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:24.863000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
我要問你的是，陸、海、空、網，是不是這個意思？ |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
0.765 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:24.943000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:25.023000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
還是通？ |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:25.023000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:29.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
陸、海、空是三大軍種…… |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[70].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[70].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:29.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[70].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:34.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].text |
對，軍種。 |
| transcript.gazette[70].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[71].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[71].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:34.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[71].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:39.450000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].text |
資通電軍是一個直屬國防部的單位。 |
| transcript.gazette[71].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[72].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[72].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:39.450000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[72].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:44.259000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].text |
它是任務編組嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[72].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[73].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[73].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:44.259000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[73].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:49.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].text |
沒有，正式的編制。 |
| transcript.gazette[73].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[74].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[74].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:49.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[74].end |
2024-10-07T12:11:49.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].text |
好，最後一個問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[74].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[75].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[75].start |
2024-10-07T12:11:49.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[75].end |
2024-10-07T12:12:15.631000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].text |
我想大家今天關心的這個題目，就是這一次雷神的事情，美國司法部已經判雷神要賠2.5億美金了，我們大概可以獲得多少理賠？ |
| transcript.gazette[75].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[76].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[76].start |
2024-10-07T12:12:16.391000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[76].end |
2024-10-07T12:12:29.195000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].text |
我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是，我們軍售，然後我們都是跟美國政府，好像你沒有辦法有任何作為，它賣你貴的你就吃了。 |
| transcript.gazette[76].quality |
0.961 |
| transcript.gazette[77].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[77].start |
2024-10-07T12:12:29.696000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[77].end |
2024-10-07T12:12:40.820000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].text |
大家都知道，臺灣買的幾乎都是全世界最貴的，然後國防部長就一句話，因為對的是美國政府，所以言下之意，就是我們毫無談判籌碼，是這樣子嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[77].quality |
0.966 |
| transcript.gazette[78].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[78].start |
2024-10-07T12:12:43.245000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[78].end |
2024-10-07T12:12:55.818000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].text |
我跟委員報告兩點，第一點，美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器，所以美國有相當嚴謹的價格分析制度，也有相當嚴謹的稽核制度。 |
| transcript.gazette[78].quality |
0.963 |
| transcript.gazette[79].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[79].start |
2024-10-07T12:12:56.418000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[79].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:04.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].text |
所以如果雷神把我們當「盤仔」，如果你用同樣的道理，美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當「盤仔」。 |
| transcript.gazette[79].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[80].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[80].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:04.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[80].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:05.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].text |
第二點，您這裡面提到司法部要判雷神賠多少錢，有關這個部分的內容不盡詳實，我剛剛在機密專報裡面已經報告了，我想這些部分我們沒有辦法在這裡做公開的透露，要請委員能夠理解。 |
| transcript.gazette[80].quality |
0.039 |
| transcript.gazette[81].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[81].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:05.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[81].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:06.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].text |
告訴我們時間表，這些事情大概什麼時候可以告一段落？ |
| transcript.gazette[81].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[82].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[82].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:06.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[82].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:07.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].text |
這個是美國的醜聞，也是我們的醜聞。 |
| transcript.gazette[82].quality |
0.067 |
| transcript.gazette[83].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[83].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:07.209000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[83].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:08.590000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].text |
美國還沒有告知我們最後可以結案的時間點。 |
| transcript.gazette[83].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[84].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[84].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:37.037000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[84].end |
2024-10-07T12:13:55.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].text |
另外，在它高報的這裡面有一個案子，就是愛國者飛彈1,792億元，後來結餘款182億元美國人不給我們，後來又叫我們再追加買它的愛國者飛彈。 |
| transcript.gazette[84].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[85].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[85].start |
2024-10-07T12:13:55.749000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[85].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:01.373000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].text |
這個事情你剛才已經講了，這是違反相關的程序，你們的防空飛彈指揮部……違反程序啊！沒有！ |
| transcript.gazette[85].quality |
0.811 |
| transcript.gazette[86].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[86].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:01.373000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[86].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:06.269364+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].text |
愛國者飛彈的剩餘結餘款我們要增購…… |
| transcript.gazette[86].quality |
0.062 |
| transcript.gazette[87].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[87].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:06.269364+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[87].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:11.165727+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].text |
182億元啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[87].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[88].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[88].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:11.165727+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[88].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:16.062091+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].text |
不是嗎？不是！ |
| transcript.gazette[88].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[89].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[89].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:16.062091+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[89].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:20.958455+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].text |
您把兩個案子……一個是重鑑測案，這個部分是新增案，這個部分也編列預算報立法院同意。 |
| transcript.gazette[89].quality |
0.056 |
| transcript.gazette[90].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[90].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:20.958455+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[90].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:25.854818+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].text |
愛國者飛彈的結餘款項我們要進行增購，就這個增購案，我們正在增購…… |
| transcript.gazette[90].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[91].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[91].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:25.854818+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[91].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:30.751182+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].text |
你講的是182億元的部分，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[91].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[92].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[92].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:30.751182+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[92].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:35.647545+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].text |
不是，182億元是重鑑測案，那個是新編的預算。 |
| transcript.gazette[92].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[93].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[93].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:35.647545+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[93].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:40.543909+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].text |
至於愛國者飛彈剩餘的結餘款，我們…… |
| transcript.gazette[93].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[94].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[94].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:40.543909+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[94].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:45.440273+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].text |
剩多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[94].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[95].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[95].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:45.440273+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[95].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:50.336636+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].text |
269億元，我們增購愛國者飛彈，這個部分也報立法院同意，同意我們就這個案子來續行增購。 |
| transcript.gazette[95].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[96].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[96].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:50.336636+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[96].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:55.233000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].text |
這是兩件事情，請委員瞭解。 |
| transcript.gazette[96].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[97].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[97].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:55.233000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[97].end |
2024-10-07T12:14:56.173000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].text |
好，最後還是一句話。 |
| transcript.gazette[97].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[98].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[98].start |
2024-10-07T12:14:57.174000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[98].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:08.522000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].text |
你剛才就「一推二百五」，說因為是軍售，不是商售，面對的是美國政府，美國政府就相信它，所以我們就沒有任何置喙的餘地。 |
| transcript.gazette[98].quality |
0.878 |
| transcript.gazette[99].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[99].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:08.762000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[99].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:14.867000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].text |
大家都覺得買貴了，因為是軍售，政府對政府，你一點皮條都沒有，變這個樣子！ |
| transcript.gazette[99].quality |
0.903 |
| transcript.gazette[100].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[100].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:16.028000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[100].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:19.970000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].text |
外面感覺國防部可以做一點事情，可以買便宜一點的嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[100].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[101].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[101].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:21.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[101].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:28.216000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].text |
美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業做購買……是啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[101].quality |
0.913 |
| transcript.gazette[102].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[102].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:28.396000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[102].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:33.380000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].text |
你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部，就變這樣而已，你就沒有角色啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[102].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[103].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[103].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:33.380000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[103].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:34.561000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].text |
對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[103].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[104].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[104].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:34.561000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[104].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:41.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].text |
我們面對的是美國的政府，美國政府要對我們負完全的責任，包括會計、稽核的責任。 |
| transcript.gazette[104].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[105].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[105].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:41.266000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[105].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[105].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:42.166000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[105].text |
那你跟美國政府有沒有討價討價還價的空間？ |
| transcript.gazette[105].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[106].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[106].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:42.166000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[106].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[106].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:42.967000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[106].text |
我就問你這一點嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[106].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[107].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[107].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:47.069000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[107].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[107].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:57.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[107].text |
剛剛已經講過了，就國內、外歷史採購的價格，如果有偏離的部分的話，我們跟美國會進行交涉。 |
| transcript.gazette[107].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[108].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[108].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:57.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[108].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[108].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:58.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[108].text |
我的時間到了，不願意再占太多時間。 |
| transcript.gazette[108].quality |
0.067 |
| transcript.gazette[109].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[109].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:58.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[109].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[109].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:59.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[109].text |
不過我們買的東西很多太貴，隨便講，無人機就貴很多，F-16V也貴很多。 |
| transcript.gazette[109].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[110].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[110].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:59.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[110].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[110].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:00.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[110].text |
跟委員報告，這個不是實情，我想雷神的這一個案子裡面牽扯到的不是只有我們，也包括美國政府本身，也包括很多其他的國家，這不是實情。 |
| transcript.gazette[110].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[111].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[111].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:00.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[111].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[111].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:01.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[111].text |
最後一個小問題，F-16V第一架什麼時候可以交貨？ |
| transcript.gazette[111].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[112].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[112].start |
2024-10-07T12:15:58.747000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[112].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[112].end |
2024-10-07T12:15:59.908000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[112].text |
我們希望在今年的第四季能夠到。 |
| transcript.gazette[112].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[113].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[113].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:00.408000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[113].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[113].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:03.265143+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[113].text |
第四季現在已經開始了。 |
| transcript.gazette[113].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[114].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[114].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:03.565143+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[114].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[114].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:06.708000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[114].text |
對，我們希望……我們當然還是…… |
| transcript.gazette[114].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[115].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[115].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:07.008000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[115].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[115].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:08.150857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[115].text |
有希望嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[115].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[116].speaker |
賴委員士葆 |
| transcript.gazette[116].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:08.450857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[116].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[116].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:11.022286+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[116].text |
我看起來沒什麼希望。 |
| transcript.gazette[116].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[117].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[117].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:11.322286+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[117].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[117].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:16.179429+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[117].text |
我們一直在督促美國政府能夠做到，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[117].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[118].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[118].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:16.479429+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[118].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[118].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:19.622286+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[118].text |
謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回。 |
| transcript.gazette[118].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[119].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[119].start |
2024-10-07T12:16:19.922286+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[119].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[119].end |
2024-10-07T12:16:24.208000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[119].text |
接下來我們請林國成委員上臺質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[119].quality |
0 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:05:22 - 12:16:39 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】） |
| gazette.lineno |
610 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（12時5分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請顧部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
顧部長立雄：賴委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
賴委員士葆：部長好，先轉一個題目。你上臺以後強調不講第一擊，你叫自衛權……共軍如果攻擊國軍在航機艦、設施等；攻擊臺灣本島、外離島；未經許可進入12浬領空、領海……現在有一個外界關心的題目，美國國會議員特別有提到這樣的概念，就是中國大陸如果發動對美國的網路攻擊，攻擊它的基礎設施，等同宣戰。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
我請教顧部長，我們中華民國這個地方對於老共的網路攻擊，我們要不要也是用這樣的概念？要不要apply到上面說如果它攻擊我們的基礎設施，特別很多專家都在講，其實老共要打臺灣，不需要真的軍力打，它只要癱瘓我們的基礎設施、電廠、水庫等等的這些重要的基礎設施，等同就癱瘓了。你沒有電，維生系統沒有電，怎麼有辦法去運作整個社會呢？所以網攻如果攻擊到基礎設施，請問部長你要不要把它視同為宣戰？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，網攻我們的基礎設施，而且癱瘓我們的基礎設施，特別是關鍵的基礎設施，比如說我們的電、我們的水，讓它整個癱瘓掉的話，就這個部分我們認為它是一個重要預警的徵候。就如同俄羅斯在對烏克蘭，它在進入到政治作戰的階段之前，它也大量地進行網攻來試圖癱瘓關鍵基礎設施，所以我想各國都把這個部分視為一個非常重大的徵候。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
我記得應該是美國對於破壞從西岸到東岸整個油管的設施，拜登也講了重話，說對於癱瘓這樣的基礎設施，他沒有辦法容忍。我想我們這邊的話，對於癱瘓我們這些非常關鍵的基礎設施，我們會視為一個重大預警徵候的項目，來視為它是不是有後續的相關行動。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
賴委員士葆：你還沒有回答問題，算不算宣戰？是不是等於宣戰？還是說宣戰前奏？可不可以這樣講？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
顧部長立雄：我現在只能夠說我們會把它作為一個非常重大的預警徵候來做研判。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
賴委員士葆：不等於宣戰？這樣某種程度就是宣戰了哦！就等於打了嘛！直接來講的話，打的話，世界反應大，用這個把你癱瘓，就等於打了，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
顧部長立雄：我現在還是回答委員的問題，就是說我們會把攻擊我們的關鍵基礎設施視同一個重大的預警徵候，因為它如果對我們做這樣的攻擊，它一定會有下一步行動的可能性。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
賴委員士葆：那我們的反制是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們的反制？當然我們就要…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
賴委員士葆：我們也網路攻擊？反過來，要counterattack，是不是？要不要？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
顧部長立雄：好，你要不要…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳參謀長俊良：委員好，我是資通電軍參謀長。向委員報告，有關於網攻部分，我們有自己國防資安協防的團隊，那針對這樣的部分…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：你講這個聽不懂啦！我的時間快到了，你不要跟我講一些五四三！我就問你怎麼回應啦！我剛剛就舉例，它網攻我們，我們網攻他們，可以嗎？我就問你，我們有沒有這個能力？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳參謀長俊良：報告委員，我們有我們的機制在…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
賴委員士葆：我們有沒有這個能力啦？癱瘓他們的基礎設施，有沒有這個能力？請問你。部長？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
顧部長立雄：委員，我想我沒有辦法在這裡回答這樣的一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，那請問你，中國他們的網軍有沒有能力癱瘓我們的關鍵設施？有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
顧部長立雄：我想我們也有足夠的應對，如果它癱瘓我們相關的關鍵基礎設施，有協防措施跟資安的防護系統存在，它要癱瘓我們也不是那麼容易啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以它做不到，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
顧部長立雄：我只能夠說我們一直持續地強化我們的資安防護能力。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
賴委員士葆：好。在這樣的情況之下，請問你外界很關心的，在你的任內，我們國防部有沒有可能成立資通電軍，就是第四軍種，或者是俗稱的網軍正式編制？有沒有這樣的規劃？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
顧部長立雄：也不能講那是網軍吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
賴委員士葆：不是那個網軍啦！這個網軍不是那種網軍。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們已經有資通電軍了。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
賴委員士葆：有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
顧部長立雄：有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
賴委員士葆：有編制嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
顧部長立雄：有啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
賴委員士葆：有多少人？你就是？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
陳參謀長俊良：我就是參謀長。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
賴委員士葆：你們有多少人？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
陳參謀長俊良：我們現在整個的編制大概六千餘人。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
賴委員士葆：六千多人？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
陳參謀長俊良：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：那很多哦！大陸多少人？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
顧部長立雄：它是一個兵種，還沒有成為軍種，但是有相當程度的…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
賴委員士葆：不太一樣啦！不等於第四軍吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
顧部長立雄：按照國軍的術語來講的話，它不是軍種，它是一個兵種，直屬國防部。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，那是底下的嘛！我要問你的是，陸、海、空、網，是不是這個意思？還是通？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
顧部長立雄：陸、海、空是三大軍種…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，軍種。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
顧部長立雄：資通電軍是一個直屬國防部的單位。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
賴委員士葆：它是任務編組嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
顧部長立雄：沒有，正式的編制。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，最後一個問題。我想大家今天關心的這個題目，就是這一次雷神的事情，美國司法部已經判雷神要賠2.5億美金了，我們大概可以獲得多少理賠？我剛才聽你在回答其他委員講的是，我們軍售，然後我們都是跟美國政府，好像你沒有辦法有任何作為，它賣你貴的你就吃了。大家都知道，臺灣買的幾乎都是全世界最貴的，然後國防部長就一句話，因為對的是美國政府，所以言下之意，就是我們毫無談判籌碼，是這樣子嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
顧部長立雄：我跟委員報告兩點，第一點，美國政府本身也向這些公司購買武器，所以美國有相當嚴謹的價格分析制度，也有相當嚴謹的稽核制度。所以如果雷神把我們當「盤仔」，如果你用同樣的道理，美國政府也不可能容許雷神把它當「盤仔」。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][1] |
第二點，您這裡面提到司法部要判雷神賠多少錢，有關這個部分的內容不盡詳實，我剛剛在機密專報裡面已經報告了，我想這些部分我們沒有辦法在這裡做公開的透露，要請委員能夠理解。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
賴委員士葆：告訴我們時間表，這些事情大概什麼時候可以告一段落？這個是美國的醜聞，也是我們的醜聞。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
顧部長立雄：美國還沒有告知我們最後可以結案的時間點。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
賴委員士葆：另外，在它高報的這裡面有一個案子，就是愛國者飛彈1,792億元，後來結餘款182億元美國人不給我們，後來又叫我們再追加買它的愛國者飛彈。這個事情你剛才已經講了，這是違反相關的程序，你們的防空飛彈指揮部……違反程序啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
顧部長立雄：沒有！愛國者飛彈的剩餘結餘款我們要增購…… |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
賴委員士葆：182億元啊！不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
顧部長立雄：不是！您把兩個案子……一個是重鑑測案，這個部分是新增案，這個部分也編列預算報立法院同意。愛國者飛彈的結餘款項我們要進行增購，就這個增購案，我們正在增購…… |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
賴委員士葆：你講的是182億元的部分，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
顧部長立雄：不是，182億元是重鑑測案，那個是新編的預算。至於愛國者飛彈剩餘的結餘款，我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
賴委員士葆：剩多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
顧部長立雄：269億元，我們增購愛國者飛彈，這個部分也報立法院同意，同意我們就這個案子來續行增購。這是兩件事情，請委員瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，最後還是一句話。你剛才就「一推二百五」，說因為是軍售，不是商售，面對的是美國政府，美國政府就相信它，所以我們就沒有任何置喙的餘地。大家都覺得買貴了，因為是軍售，政府對政府，你一點皮條都沒有，變這個樣子！外面感覺國防部可以做一點事情，可以買便宜一點的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
顧部長立雄：美國國防部本身也都是在跟這些軍工產業做購買…… |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
賴委員士葆：是啊！你的言下之意就是相信美國國防部，就變這樣而已，你就沒有角色啦！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們面對的是美國的政府，美國政府要對我們負完全的責任，包括會計、稽核的責任。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
賴委員士葆：那你跟美國政府有沒有討價討價還價的空間？我就問你這一點嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
顧部長立雄：剛剛已經講過了，就國內、外歷史採購的價格，如果有偏離的部分的話，我們跟美國會進行交涉。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，不願意再占太多時間。不過我們買的東西很多太貴，隨便講，無人機就貴很多，F-16V也貴很多。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個不是實情，我想雷神的這一個案子裡面牽扯到的不是只有我們，也包括美國政府本身，也包括很多其他的國家，這不是實情。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，F-16V第一架什麼時候可以交貨？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們希望在今年的第四季能夠到。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
賴委員士葆：第四季現在已經開始了。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
顧部長立雄：對，我們希望……我們當然還是…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
賴委員士葆：有希望嗎？我看起來沒什麼希望。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們一直在督促美國政府能夠做到，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回。 |
| gazette.blocks[72][1] |
接下來我們請林國成委員上臺質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
236 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-35-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
165 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137901 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137901_00006 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、
「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機
密】 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137901_00005 |