| IVOD_ID |
155178 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155178 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T11:59:07+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T12:12:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| video_url |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好,謝謝主席。有請部長。不當心。劉委員,好。部長好。先請教部長,這個垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策,這一本。這報告你有特別的double check過嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
29.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
目前全台裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
79.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
累計80萬公噸分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市那環境部目前這個應急措施就是未來3年內中央會投入12億補助地方政府將裸露垃圾複土來做掩埋及分選打包然後並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場分園完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標沒有錯吧?沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
99.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
同時還寄望在今年年底新竹縣的焚化廠會完工以及116年台南市誠心焚化廠更新這個焚化爐要完工來運轉然後藉此在這個全國有29場的總處理量能可以達到700萬噸的這樣的一個目標有沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
107.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
129.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
但是你這個規劃上顯然是有問題的部長你看一下台灣現在在垃圾處理上還是以文化為主對不對沒錯我這邊有個資料部長你可以詳細閱讀一下111年這個是你們不提供給我的家屋垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物全國共產出在111年度的時候是469萬噸然後對於國內 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
134.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
142.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個公有的焚化爐每年可以處理650萬噸這數字應該都沒有錯嘛然後上面應該還有181萬的這個餘裕181萬噸的餘裕嘛同樣這個焚化爐你的事業會期物的處理量是97萬噸也應該沒有錯嘛因為這個數字是你們提供給我除了你們提供有錯誤嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
158.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
161.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
問題來了在114年燒完當年這個家屋垃圾及私有廢棄物後應該還有80萬噸的空間這空間跑去哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
172.697 |
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198.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
上面講的你的報告中指出累計裸露戰刺53場累計已經80萬公噸如果對照110英年你們剛好又是有一個處理到一般交惡社事業費期物等等等而且你們事業費期物還有在持續的要求要減量嘛吼那你們還有一個80萬噸的空間這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
200.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我沒有寫出來啦,你們自己算嘛。650扣469扣97啊。就84萬噸啊。報告委員,這個97萬噸的這個數字,因為我們是統計是180萬噸。事業費契物。事業費契物的部分是180萬噸。文化的事業費契物。這是你們網路的數字餒? |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
235.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那為什麼你們網路顯示出來是97萬噸那我到底要參考那個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
259.158 |
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270.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我現在沒有問你們有沒有180嗎?你們知道網路是97嗎?你現在可以馬上上網就可以看了啊。你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊。所以我才會這麼跟你算出來說你還有84萬噸的這個餘量啊。跑去哪裡啊?我們請我們負責的。你們先把數據釐清啦齁。就再跟部長講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
285.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
300.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
110年度的數據,台灣每年加護垃圾量平均就是在450萬噸左右嘛,對不對?然後事業會幾乎是在你們環境部的努力之下喔每年的這個聲報的數據也都在減少那如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的是在增加喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
307.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
328.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
跟委員報告這個公告在上面的是屬於列管事業有97萬噸那有一些事業他沒有列管的他也會進文化場這兩個加起來是180萬噸有列管的97沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸是這樣那你為什麼你們網路不把這個東西標示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
333.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
360.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我回去會跟循環署這邊講還是你這83有什麼網路的部分我們把它你們知道這有問題啊你83萬吨是怎麼處理一樣是你列管你列管你願意標示出來你沒有列管的你就不把它標示出來可以上下其手原本齁原本環境部以前環保署在補助部長應該很清楚嘛當時我們在補助這些魂化爐的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
361.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
391.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
416.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我就覺得這問題又更大了啦其實魂化爐部長應該要應該有徹底去了解吧有有他的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦哪一個地方政府執政這個魂化爐是整個他在控管反而不是你環境部不是對但是法律給你們之後應該甚至於你所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
417.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
440.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
116年度的台南市的城西混化廠的更新胡鬧爐這個錢的補助也是來自中央啊?難道是地方政府自酬嗎?沒有沒有沒有,不是,是來來來,促餐啦他們走促餐的時候走促餐,但是之前的胡鬧爐更新的費用百分之一百是來自環境部啊沒有走促餐的,除此之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
442.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
465.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
應該都是來自環境部啊?以前環保署啊?也沒有,它原先更新的部分也都是會走促餐促餐去更新,譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做不走促餐不走OT,那更新葫蘆的費用來自哪裡?那就是廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談,這樣子環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算補助過更新葫蘆爐 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
467.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
489.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有一些規劃或者是前期的作業我們會補助一些錢但是規劃完畢之後那個部分就是規劃及前期的作業有其他的更新混同化土的費用環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧如果還沒有在這個位置可能就小心這樣亂打會出問題我們可以調出來看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
493.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
510.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
現在是剛好預算在躺著整個審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論環保署一年編了多少個預算來更新這些葷臘爐環保署是大頭捏你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情哪有規劃費用而已哪有做促餐而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
513.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
528.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我要跟部長講說你看啦齁今天這個環境部的報告是說我們是希望在116年度的時候混化量要達700萬噸嘛對不對好我覺得我覺得如果今天我們到現在還垃圾燒不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
529.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
548.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們國家變了這麼多的預算不管成了你所講的秋餐啦不管還是怎樣的情況之下環保署扮演的多重要的一個堅強的角色但是垃圾到現在還處理不完燒不完啦齁甚至於你看你還累計80萬公噸然後不是打包啊就是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
549.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
576.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
繼續做這個SRF對不對那SRF在前部長宣布的時候我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整嘛我知道我知道裡面有洞起來啦不合格規定的就打掉這個我肯定啦齁但是到現在全國應該只有18場不合格規定打掉幾場我們製造的有48場使用的有18場然後製造的部分的話大概有十幾場已經有轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
577.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
598.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有轉型?轉什麼樣型?有的就沒有做了,有的就是它不是SRF了。對啦,是沒有做了還是轉型?有的沒有做了,有的就是不是SRF了,就不是認定SRF了。你在這邊我們SRF就主要是轉匯為冷嘛對不對?那你看喔,省進部給你一個報告是說環境部在2017年到2023年花費6億 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
601.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
629.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
9千多萬將近7億也是用補助這幾個縣市臺中臺南宜蘭雲林南投屏東花園臺東澎湖九縣市跟剛剛我講的這幾個全台裸露佔這個垃圾場重疊最起碼一半以上然後設置15套垃圾的分選打包這樣的一個設施報告中還指出打包後的垃圾下一步應該就是製成SRF轉匯為能但是9成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
630.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
638.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那你如果打包之後還是要拿到胡鬧裡去燒那等於你就是把漆就是拿到胡鬧裡去把它燒掉啊這事情部長知道吧知道知道對啊怎麼會這樣我剛剛還肯定你們啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
654.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
671.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對SRF長的這樣的一個嚴厲的一個報告委員現在SRF的量能大概只有一年多只有30萬噸啦跟這個實際上的這麼的大量還是有很大的落差啦那所以其實我們體檢完之後我希望年底有一個白皮書能夠有一個比較好清楚的政策因為SRF在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
671.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
691.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
其實我必須說我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的我們希望有好的合格重新再整軍再往前走啦不然的話當時這樣的制度我沒有參與在裡面但是我覺得當時急推SRF的確是對台灣而言管理不善是一個災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
693.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
710.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
在你還未就任之前我就有跟前部長講說SRF全國SRF要盤整一次我們盤整完了這個資料我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料我們這兩天我提供好不好給委員會我們來參考這第一啦那第二省進部提出這樣的問題這確實是問題存在嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
712.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
723.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第3個SIF陳副部長所講的一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能現在嘛對不對你現在堆置的喔全台53場你們的累計是80萬噸喔阿你有九成沒有打包喔九成沒有處理喔九成打包之後沒有製成SIF喔這一來一往我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情我覺得這倒有問題阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
741.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
765.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫時裸露然後你自我在邊綠山區去補助然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SF那如果這樣84萬噸增加我們先不談嘛你等於是兩年半你就可以全部都處理掉了啊當然沒有這麼講得這麼容易啦齁沒有兩年半即便三年也可以打掉啊你也不是說回過頭來來寄望116年這兩個胡鬧魯的啟用啊照你講的數據嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
771.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
784.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這是顯然有問題啊不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF,SRF有它的定義我當然知道啊,怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF我不知道當時這個定義是說要九成來做SRF的理由是什麼,這個我再瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
786.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
786.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 謝謝劉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
816.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
816.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
謝謝部長 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:59:07 - 12:12:45 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【10月7日及9日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
907 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
劉委員建國：（11時59分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：部長，請。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
彭部長啓明：劉委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
劉委員建國：部長好。先請教部長這個垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策，這一本，這個報告你有特別double check過嗎？這你們做的，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
彭部長啓明：對，我做的。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
劉委員建國：一般是幕僚做好之後就直接跟你回報說沒問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
彭部長啓明：我有看過，而且我有改。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
劉委員建國：你有看過，也有改？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
劉委員建國：那就更危險了。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
陳委員瑩：同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
劉委員建國：其他委員也說同意，你看。你報告中指出目前全臺裸露暫置垃圾掩埋場共53場，累計80萬公噸，分別集中在新竹、屏東、南投、雲林、桃園等縣市。環境部目前這個應急措施，就是未來3年內，中央會投入12億，補助地方政府將裸露垃圾覆土來做掩埋及分選打包，並訂定裸露垃圾掩埋場，分年完成84萬噸的妥善處理目標，沒有錯吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
彭部長啓明：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
劉委員建國：好，沒有錯。然後，同時你還寄望喔！在今年年底，新竹縣的焚化廠會完工，以及116年臺南市城西焚化廠更新焚化爐要完工來運轉？ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
劉委員建國：然後屆時在全國有29廠的總處理量能，可以達到700噸的這樣的一個目標，有沒有錯？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
劉委員建國：好，但是你這個規劃上顯然是有問題，不然你看一下，臺灣現在在垃圾處理上，還是以焚化為主對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
彭部長啓明：沒錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
劉委員建國：我這邊有一個資料，部長可以詳細閱讀一下。這也是你們部提供給我的，家用垃圾也就是一般的廢棄物，在111年的時候全國共產出469萬噸，然後國內公有的焚化爐，每年可以處理650萬噸，這數字應該都沒有錯嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
彭部長啓明：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
劉委員建國：好，然後應該還有181萬噸的餘裕嘛！同年這個焚化爐，你們事業廢棄物的處理量是97萬噸，也應該沒有錯嘛！因為這個數字是你們提供給我，除非你們提供有錯誤。好，那問題來了，在111年燒完當年家戶垃圾及事業廢棄物後，應該還有80萬噸的空間，這空間跑去哪裡？上面講的，你的報告中指出，累計裸露暫置53場，累計已經80萬公噸，如果對照111年的資料，你們剛好又有一個處理到一般家戶垃圾、事業廢棄物等等的數字，而且你們事業廢棄物還有在持續要求要減量，那你們還有80萬噸的空間，這80萬噸的空間跑去哪裡？我沒有寫出來，你們自己算嘛！650扣469扣97就84萬噸啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
顏署長旭明：報告委員，這個97萬噸的數字，因為我們的統計是180萬噸事業廢棄物，事業廢棄物的部分是180萬噸。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
彭部長啓明：焚化的事業廢棄物。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉委員建國：這是你們網路的數字，焚化的事業廢棄物的總total。你給部長是180，你在網路上是84。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
彭部長啓明：他說可燃性的事業廢棄物是180萬噸。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉委員建國：可燃性？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
彭部長啓明：進到焚化爐。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉委員建國：進了嗎？全部都進嗎？180萬噸都進嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉委員建國：都全部焚化完成，那為什麼你們網路顯示出來是97萬噸，那我到底要參考哪個數據？我現在沒有問你們有沒有180，你們在網路上的數字是97嘛！你現在馬上上網就可以看，你們自己的資料是97萬噸啊！所以我才會這麼算出來，說你還有84萬噸的餘量啊！跑去哪裡啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
彭部長啓明：來，我請我們負責的來…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉委員建國：你們需要釐清數據。再跟部長講，111年度的數據，臺灣每年家戶垃圾量平均就是在465萬噸左右，對不對？而事業廢棄物在你們環境部的努力之下，每年的申報數據也都在減少，如果說180萬噸是沒有減少的，是在增加喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，公告在上面的是屬於列管事業，有97萬噸，有一些事業是沒有列管的，它的廢棄物也會進焚化廠，這兩個加起來是180萬噸。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉委員建國：有列管的是97？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
顏署長旭明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉委員建國：沒有列管的又有將近快83萬噸？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
顏署長旭明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉委員建國：是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
顏署長旭明：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉委員建國：那為什麼你們網路不把這個東西標示出來？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
顏署長旭明：這個我回去會跟循環署講…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
劉委員建國：還是你這83萬噸，有什麼…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
顏署長旭明：網路的部分，我們把它…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
劉委員建國：你們這樣就有問題啊！你83萬噸是怎麼處理？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
顏署長旭明：一樣是…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
劉委員建國：你列管的，你願意標示出來，你沒有列管的，你就不把它標示出來，可以上下其手。原本環境部以前環保署在補助，部長應該很清楚嘛！當時我們在補助這些焚化爐的時候，補助完之後有蘿蔔，但是我們沒有棒子，因為我們沒有調度權。後來我們在廢清法裡面修了法律，將垃圾優先，再來就是事業廢棄物嘛！對不對？所以才不會造就你們要整個調度，整個焚化爐的處理過程裡面經常在講，說你們沒有調度權。我們法律也給你們了，依據都給你們了，然後現在你們反而有這樣的空間，你不把它顯示出來，我就覺得這個問題又更大了。其實焚化爐部長應該有澈底去了解吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
彭部長啓明：有。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
劉委員建國：它的問題真的實在是非常非常的多啦！一個地方政府執政，這個焚化爐是整個他在控管，反而不是環境部。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
彭部長啓明：不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
劉委員建國：對，但是法律給你們之後，甚至116年度臺南市城西焚化廠的更新，這個錢的補助也是來自中央，難道是地方政府自籌嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
彭部長啓明：沒有，不是，是促參啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
顏署長旭明：他們走促參的時候，我們沒有…… |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
劉委員建國：喔，走促參，但是之前焚化爐更新的費用，百分之一百是來自環境部啊！沒有走促參的，除此之外，應該都是來自環境部，以前的環保署啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
顏署長旭明：也沒有，他原先更新的部分，大部分也都會走促參，促參去更新，譬如說OT或者是其他的方式去做。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
劉委員建國：不走促參，不走OT，那更新焚化爐的費用來自哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
顏署長旭明：廠商會有商業條件跟縣政府去談。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
劉委員建國：環保署從頭到尾沒有編列預算，補助過更新焚化爐？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
顏署長旭明：有，有一些規劃或者是前期的作業，我們會補助一些錢，但是規劃完畢之後，那個部分就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
劉委員建國：規劃及前期的作業有，其他更新焚化爐的費用，環保署完全沒有編列過任何一筆預算？你那時候應該還沒有在這個位置吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
顏署長旭明：是，那時候沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
劉委員建國：如果沒有在這個位置，可能就要小心，這樣亂答會出問題。我們可以調出來看嘛！現在是剛好預算還躺著，等審預算的時候我們就可以好好來討論，環保署一年編了多少預算來更新這些焚化爐。環保署是大頭耶，你們怎麼會不清楚這個事情？哪有規劃費用而已，哪有走促參而已。我要跟部長講，你看今天這個環境部的報告是說，我們是寄望在116年度的時候，焚化量要達700萬噸，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
彭部長啓明：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
劉委員建國：好，我覺得如果我們到現在垃圾還燒不完，我們國家編了這麼多的預算，不管是你所講的促參，還是怎樣的情況之下，環保署扮演了多重要的、堅強的角色，但是垃圾到現在還處理不完，燒不完啦！甚至你看，你還累計80萬公噸，不是打包就是怎樣，就繼續做SRF，對不對？SRF在薛前部長的時候，我特別在委員會要求要整個盤整。我知道你們有動起來啦！不符合規定的就打掉。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
彭部長啓明：有。 |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
劉委員建國：這個我肯定啦！但是到現在全國應該只有18場，不符合規定打掉幾場？ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
彭部長啓明：我們製造的有48場，使用的有18場，然後製造的部分大概有十幾場已經有轉型。 |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
劉委員建國：有轉型，要轉什麼樣的型？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
彭部長啓明：就是有的就沒有做了，有的它不是SRF了。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
劉委員建國：是沒有做了，還是轉型？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
彭部長啓明：有的沒有做了，有的就不是SRF了，就不是認定SRF了。 |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
劉委員建國：你知不知道我們SRF最主要是轉廢為能，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
劉委員建國：你看，審計部給你一個報告，說環境部在2017年到2023年花費六億九千多萬，將近七億，也是用於補助這幾個縣市，臺中、臺南、宜蘭、雲林、南投、屏東、花蓮、臺東、澎湖九縣市，跟剛剛我講的這幾個全臺裸露暫置的垃圾場，重疊最起碼一半以上，然後設置十五套垃圾的分選打包這樣的設施。報告中還指出打包後的垃圾，下一步應該就是製成SRF轉廢為能，但是九成的打包垃圾沒有製成SRF。地方政府喊冤啊！意思是說，環境部只是補助打包，也沒有要求製成SRF。怎麼會有這樣大的認知落差？你如果打包之後，還是要拿到焚化爐去燒，等於你就是把七億拿到焚化爐裡燒掉啊！這事情部長知道吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
彭部長啓明：知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
劉委員建國：對啊！怎麼會這樣？我剛剛還肯定你們，對SRF廠嚴厲的一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在SRF的量能，大概就一年只有30萬噸，跟實際上這麼的大量還是有很大的落差啦！其實我們體檢完之後，我希望年底有一個白皮書，能夠有一個比較清楚的政策。因為SRF在臺灣，我必須說，我們大概有兩成多的企業已經退出了，所以其實它本身反而是沒有那麼合格的，我們希望有好的、合格的重新再整軍、再往前走。不然的話，當時這樣的制度，我沒有參與在裡面，但是我覺得當時急推SRF，的確對臺灣而言，管理不善是一個災難。 |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
劉委員建國：部長，在你來之前我就有跟前部長講，全國的SRF要盤整一次。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
彭部長啓明：有，我們盤整完了。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
劉委員建國：我們委員會還是本席也都沒有相關的資料。 |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
彭部長啓明：我們這兩天會提供好不好，因為我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
劉委員建國：好，給委員會參考，這是第一。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
彭部長啓明：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
劉委員建國：第二，審計部提出這樣的問題，這顯示問題確實是存在。第三，SRF誠如部長所講的，現在一年可以處理到30萬噸的量能，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
劉委員建國：你現在堆置的全臺有53場，你們累計是80萬噸，你有九成沒有處理，九成打包之後沒有製成SRF。這一來一往，我不曉得你們怎麼處理這個事情，我覺得這大有問題啊！你寧願84萬噸在那邊暫置裸露，政府再編列預算去補助，然後你一年可以處理30萬噸的SRF，如果這樣84萬噸，增加的我們先不談，你等於兩年半就可以全部都處理掉了。當然沒有講的這麼容易啦！沒有兩年半，即便三年也可以打掉啊！你也不是說回過頭來寄望116年這兩個焚化爐啟用啊！照你講的數據顯然有問題啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
彭部長啓明：不過這個垃圾不是直接來做SRF，SRF有它的定義…… |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
劉委員建國：我當然知道啊！怎麼有可能垃圾直接做SRF？ |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
彭部長啓明：我不知道當時的定義，要九成拿來做SRF的理由是什麼，這個我再了解一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
劉委員建國：九成打包沒有做成SRF，當然不是說九成全部都要去做SRF，但是比例多少，這個你們要精算嘛！你們補助地方政府打包，希望他們去做SRF。你們也都補助了，他們為什麼量能低到這種程度？這是問題所在啊！時間到了，部長，一個星期好不好，我們把這事情釐清，給委員會一個報告好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
劉委員建國：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
主席：好，謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。接續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
256 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-26-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
173 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138201_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138201_00004 |