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| 委員名稱 |
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謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長部長請姚委員好部長好部長我看你們的簡報就是我臺灣因為從大概106年開始有24座焚化廠進入整改的過渡期每年大概有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
33.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
61.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
有十幾萬噸的垃圾必須要進入垃圾掩埋場。到了去年底呢,裸露堆置量是84萬噸。我先問一個前提,是在掩埋場裡面的量還是掩埋場以外的地面的量?在掩埋場裡面的量。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
62.279 |
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在野埋場裡面的量所以這84萬噸就不包括像澎湖那一種紅蘿那一種直接在地面上的就是澎湖的也算進去澎湖的大概是可是那個在我在概念上我不覺得那個是在野埋場裡面對他是在野埋場的地面對那個紅蘿就是野埋場所以他那個就是算我知道可是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
87.335 |
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98.77 |
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我們一般掩埋場是在地面下的才叫掩埋場嘛他是直接堆置在地面上的部長懂我的意思嗎 有有有 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.743 |
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126.355 |
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其實我看過很多的掩埋場其實很多也是這樣也有在平面的也有在山裡面的也都有各式各樣的都有那在概念上是不是應該這樣子區分就是假如在掩埋場裡面我不是說在場區裡面喔我是在真的掩埋場我們掩埋場的概念是在地底下的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.755 |
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155.607 |
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對不對,地面的不叫掩埋啊,叫堆置啊。署長說明沒關係?是是,謝謝委員,澎湖的紅蘿掩埋場、掩埋區它比較特殊,它...我現在不是只針對紅蘿來問啦,紅蘿那個就是我的概念是絕對不算是在掩埋場裡面啦。我現在是說台灣其他的垃圾堆置是多數是... |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
156.647 |
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180.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
你們現在所謂的因為我覺得裸露堆置的量是84萬噸這個到底多少是在地面下地面下的其實我的概念上也算是垃圾處理的一部分所以我們概念上這個是垃圾處理的一部分那假如說是在地面上的才叫裸露的堆置 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
181.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
211.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以這84萬噸是裸露堆置的就是裸露就是外界媒體說的垃圾山啦對啦就是沒有處理好的啦對啦啊處理好如果把它復土掩埋或是打包的那個就不叫垃圾山對啦對啦就是那表示情況還蠻嚴重的啦其實我們從立法院的預算中心的報告看得出來就臺灣其實現在垃圾掩埋場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
212.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
222.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
目前目前目前這一些垃圾山以外我們到底還有多少垃圾掩埋場有多少有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
241.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為你不保留一定的量 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
270.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
299.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
以後萬一緊急使用怎麼辦?部長你懂我的意思嗎?我知道我知道我其實今天這一段這一段跟部長討論的就是我們希望希望目前的垃圾山的處理盡可能的朝分選打包來做政策方向對不對?對對目前是這樣還有一個就是把它復土先復土 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
299.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
315.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是地面復土那個還是必須要做第二次的處理不可能說地面下就是垃圾掩埋 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
315.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
316.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
目前呢目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
347.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
370.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
欸好像就我們分析打包的最終目的是製成製成固體再生燃料對不對不一定不一定有的是這樣做啊有的是做像太空包這樣先放好就是就是暫時打包的的不算就是說我們我們欸有一個政策是是要把它做成 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
371.684 |
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371.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那這個的進度 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
386.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
405.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個的進度跟成果好嗎目前有的縣市很積極在做有些縣市他覺得他的焚化爐就做魚魚用就可以了那有些縣市做什麼用就可以了燃燒就可以了燃燒就可以可是問題是現在不夠焚化廠的量能不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
406.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
429.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
其實我們報告委員因為我們前幾個禮拜有公布SRF的體檢報告啦那其實我們也都跟各縣市環保局有溝通其實他們大概都有這個需求也大概都體認SRF是一個必須要進行的方式但是他的管理不夠嚴格我們這個也都知道我們會加嚴的來處理對這個就是就是就是就我這邊看審計部的報告齁就是欸風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
434.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
439.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
分選打包以後的量有9成 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
441.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
466.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有超過9層喔,超過9層並沒有製成SRF目前SRF大概佔所有的裡面大概一年大概30萬噸產量30萬噸,產量多少我不知道,我這邊的資料是審計報告裡面差不多,因為我們垃圾量大概一年大概900多就是說能夠處理的其實大概不到一層啦就等於有,對對,不到一層 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
467.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
470.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以可能部裡面這邊對於SRF的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
505.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
對環境衛生及公安的風險這個要做很仔細的評估然後要做政策的宣導因為我們有先做體檢然後年底會有一個管理辦法還有一些整個白皮書會出來因為SRF不應該說直接說它是燒垃圾它是一個支援的有效的再利用所以這個部分我們的確是往那個方向走但是我必須強調我並不是要鼓勵SRF但是這個是一個必要的手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
508.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
532.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個我可能要部長說明一下為什麼我們的政策是要補助SRF可是你現在說SRF其實是說它是可以把轉廢為能的一種方法是一種方法然後因為它可以取代燃煤所以基本上如果它好的話是可以取代燃煤可以來做這樣的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
533.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以其實這個是可以做的但是我必須跟委員報告因為過去可能管理辦法很不好所以很出了一些狀況那我們也體認到體檢完了我們會走向正面的角度來看這個事情會更嚴格所以部長我就是讓你把話說清楚啦要不然會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
556.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
579.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對． |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
580.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
592.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那必須要這樣子講,要不然部長假如只是單純的說不是很支持,那我們政策又這樣子走,這個會有很大的衝突好不好?好謝謝部長,謝謝主席 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:07:24 - 11:17:19 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【10月7日及9日二天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
653 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
楊委員曜：（11時7分）謝謝主席。主席，請彭部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
彭部長啓明：楊委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
楊委員曜：部長好。部長，本席看了你們的簡報，因為臺灣大概從106年開始，有24座焚化廠進入整改過渡期，每年大概有十幾萬噸垃圾必須進入垃圾掩埋場，到去年底，裸露堆置量是84萬噸。本席先問一個前提，這是掩埋場裡面的量？還是掩埋場以外，在地面上堆置的量？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
彭部長啓明：在掩埋場裡面的量。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
楊委員曜：所以這84萬噸，不包括澎湖紅羅那種直接堆置在地面上的？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
彭部長啓明：澎湖的也有算進去。澎湖的大概是…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
楊委員曜：可是在本席的概念中，那不是在掩埋場裡面，它是堆置在掩埋場的地面上。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
彭部長啓明：對，紅羅就是掩埋場，所以那個就算。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
楊委員曜：本席知道，可是一般地面下的才叫掩埋場，但它是直接堆置在地面上。部長懂本席的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
彭部長啓明：有的。委員，我看過很多掩埋場，其實很多都是這樣，有在平面的，也有在山裡面的，各式各樣的都有。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
楊委員曜：但是概念上是不是應該這樣區分？假如在掩埋場裡面，本席不是說在場區裡面，而是指真的掩埋，所謂的掩埋場概念就是掩埋在地底下嘛！對不對？堆置在地面的不叫掩埋啊！那是叫堆置。可以請署長說明，沒關係。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
顏署長旭明：是，謝謝委員。澎湖的紅羅掩埋場，它的掩埋區比較特殊，凹下去的地方…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
楊委員曜：本席現在不是只針對紅羅的部分詢問，就本席的概念，紅羅的部分絕對不算放在掩埋場裡面。本席現在是說臺灣其他地方的垃圾堆置，現在裸露堆置的量是84萬噸，這裡面到底有多少是在地面下？就本席的概念，這也算是垃圾處理的一種方法，地面上的才叫裸露堆置嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
楊委員曜：所以這84萬噸是裸露堆置？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
彭部長啓明：就是裸露在外的，也就是外界、媒體說的垃圾山啦！就是沒有處理好的。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
楊委員曜：對啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
彭部長啓明：處理好的，就是覆土掩埋或是打包，那個就不叫垃圾山。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
楊委員曜：對啦！那表示情況還滿嚴重的。其實我們從立法院預算中心的報告看得出來，臺灣現在的垃圾掩埋場，就是埋在地面下的，容量已經快到上限，其中有17處完全飽和。至於掩埋覆土措施，目前除了這些垃圾山以外，我們到底還有多少垃圾掩埋場？有多少量？你們知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
彭部長啓明：現在大概有107座掩埋場，我們算了一下，大概有354萬立方公尺，我們是用立方公尺計算，不是用垃圾的實際重量「噸」來看，所以還有空間，但是我們不希望再增加啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
楊委員曜：對，雖然還有空間，但是現在這84萬噸也不能直接讓它進入掩埋場，因為如果不保留一定的量，萬一以後需要緊急使用該怎麼辦。部長，你懂本席的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
彭部長啓明：對，我知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
楊委員曜：其實本席今天這一段質詢要和部長討論的，就是我們希望目前的垃圾山處理方式，儘可能以分選打包做為政策方向，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
彭部長啓明：對，目前是這樣。還有一個就是先覆土，這是針對在地面上的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
楊委員曜：就是地面覆土，可是地面覆土還是必須做第二次處理。地面下的就是垃圾掩埋，它是垃圾處理的終極方式，但地面上的覆土絕對不是終極處理，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
彭部長啓明：不是。未來如果量能足夠的話，它還是可以處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
楊委員曜：這只是暫時處理啦！所以現在環境部也有補助一些縣市做垃圾分選打包，目前分選打包的最終目的是製成固體再生燃料，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
彭部長啓明：不一定。有的是這樣做，有的是做成像太空包的樣子，先放置在那邊。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
楊委員曜：暫時打包的不算，我們有一個政策是要把它做成SRF，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
彭部長啓明：對。如果裡面的分類做得好，而且有熱質的話，的確可以做為固體再生燃料使用。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
楊委員曜：這部分的進度和成果好嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
彭部長啓明：目前有的縣市很積極在做，但有些縣市覺得直接運用他們的焚化爐就可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
楊委員曜：做什麼運用？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
彭部長啓明：直接燃燒就好。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
楊委員曜：問題是現在的焚化廠量能不夠。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
彭部長啓明：我們前幾個禮拜有公布SRF的體檢報告，也有和各縣市環保局做過溝通，其實他們大概都有這個需求，也大概都體認SRF是必須進行的方式，但是它的管理不夠嚴格，這些我們都知道，我們會加嚴處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
楊委員曜：對。本席看了審計部的報告，分選打包以後，超過九成並沒有製成SRF。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
彭部長啓明：目前SRF一年大概有30萬噸的產量。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
楊委員曜：本席不知道產量多少，本席的資料是審計報告的內容。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
彭部長啓明：因為我們一年的垃圾量大概是九百多萬噸，能夠處理的大概不到一成。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
楊委員曜：所以環境部對SRF的環境衛生和工安風險要做很仔細的評估，也要做政策宣導。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
彭部長啓明：有。我們有先做體檢，年底會提出一個管理辦法，也會提出白皮書。因為SRF，不應該直接說它是燒垃圾，它是一個資源的有效再利用，我們的確是往那個方向走，我必須強調，我並不是要鼓勵做SRF，但這是一個必要的手段。 |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
楊委員曜：這部分可能需要部長說明一下，為什麼我們的政策是補助SRF，可是現在你卻說並不鼓勵。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
彭部長啓明：其實SRF是轉廢為能的一種方法，因為它可以取代燃煤，基本上如果運用的好，是可以取代燃煤使用，所以這是可以做的。但是我必須向委員報告，因為過去的管理辦法可能很不好，所以出了一些狀況，我們也有體認到，現在體檢完了，我們會用正面的角度來看這個事情，也會更嚴格。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
楊委員曜：對。所以部長，本席就是要讓你把話說清楚，要不然會誤導，因為我們明明就是補助地方政府去做SRF。現在部長的意思是說，我們要精進SRF的各項…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
彭部長啓明：各種程序、生產製程，甚至是使用，全部用最嚴格的標準看待。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
楊委員曜：對，你必須說明清楚，假如部長只單純的說不是很支持，但我們的政策又這樣走，這會有很大的衝突，好不好？謝謝部長，謝謝主席。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
主席：好，謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。先宣告：黃秀芳委員發言完畢後，我們處理臨時提案。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][1] |
接下來請洪申翰委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
256 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-26-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
蘇巧慧 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
173 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1138201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1138201_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1138201_00004 |
| IVOD_ID |
155140 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155140 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-2 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-07T11:07:24+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-07T11:17:19+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |