| IVOD_ID |
155065 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155065 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-04T16:15:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-04T16:45:34+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:05 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
陳永康 |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/045a6e837d73a06a4db3550334ccc1e77a8a9d3d5bde67040964f48edfcc165c76222d38e455be045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
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委員長：各位立院的同仁：各位政府的首長大家好：各位媒體的朋友好：有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.377 |
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51.826 |
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陳委員好 總理長你好今天的問政是聚焦在動態的國際情勢變化以及我們國安情勢如何這一個適度的反應那麼實際上我們是提供政府比較精進的一些做法與建言我想可以從這個圖像看出來我們要看的實際上是一個大格局的視野而不是聚焦在一個純粹島嶼的台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.208 |
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75.012 |
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國際情勢的變化萬千面對這個動態的局勢變化對任何一個國家的國安問題都是一個挑戰如果沒有一個完整的架構各位可以從這個圖上看出來因為鬼局難測的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.266 |
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107.547 |
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國際情勢,比如說俄國戰爭,到今天已經打了950天,以哈戰爭也打了一年多,馬上可能爆發規模升高的伊朗跟以色列的軍事衝突,都不是我們能夠完全掌握的,因為訊息甚多, |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
109.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
136.857 |
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來源不同展示的報告方式不同媒體不同所以我這邊強烈建議就是先建立一個共同圖像的平台那麼我們可以用比較進步的高科技比方講用GIS ARCGIS然後把國際的圖把它經過校正涵蓋國際圖區域圖亞太圖台灣周遭圖因此台海問題它連結到 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
東海南海他並不是單一的現象同樣在亞洲的問題包括了朝鮮半島日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
148.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
150.4 |
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我們想到了社會的堅韌 民心安定 經濟繁榮 軍事堅強 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
179.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
208.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
台海的和平這裡面包括了國安的幾個重要的環節政治面 外交面 經濟面 軍事面其實這都跟兩岸相關另外 有關能源社會醫療產業它都是基建相關因此在這個條件下有一個完整的國家安全戰略透過跨部會的橫向協調它可以在比較短的時間做出一個正確 比較正確性高的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
209.485 |
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209.625 |
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陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
230.001 |
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李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
245.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
246.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
健康臺灣推動委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
272.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
301.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有五個主軸但是這個主軸上面的交集支撐以及下面的基礎設施哪些還要強化這個我們還要看到政府持續把細節告知國際情勢變化萬千風險是常存在的但是如果因為國際的關係或是政策面這兩者加上模糊不確定我們就會遇到有一個危機的展示 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
303.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
304.075 |
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李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
326.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
349.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
法制性的國家安全戰略因此在某些狀況下各位可以看到資源的分配不均策略不容易同調跨部會的協調如果不是陳峰或者是院長出來召集就會產生一些困難我們也希望在這個裡面政務委員跨部會協調要扮演更積極的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
350.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
350.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
369.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
397.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
397.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
425.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
454 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
區域的威脅 有謀的變質 國際組織 國際法律資訊安全 氣候變遷 能源膽缺 重大的國際性的傳染病這都影響這兩個不同的輸入 產生了綜合評估國家安全戰略的重要項目 比方講兩岸的情勢 社會的韌性這中間包含了國防 外交 經濟 能源 治安 人口政策最後國家安全戰略是什麼 促進繁榮 確保民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
455.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
456.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
委員長陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
479.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
479.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
陳永康議員：陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
504.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
530.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在兩年前的國慶政府團隊表示我們要建立強韌型的國家四大韌性已經講了經濟產業社會安全網國防戰力民主自由體制這是一個很好的目標但是怎麼樣去努力達成在今年總統就職滿月的時候也強調了社會防韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
531.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
537.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
強化國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性同時面對不對稱作戰應具備的戰略思維諸多牽動 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
542.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
569.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主動權的變數很多是受國外國際情勢的影響我們要建立營造國安環境建設性的關係民生與國防的合一這個就是國家韌性的關鍵因素所以國防跟民生這兩個不要切割在國家安全戰略裡面可以相互包容可以做協調而不是單獨聚焦在國防上 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
569.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
593.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你要如何軍購如何建立你的防衛能力而這邊呢如何維持不斷水不斷電不斷網能源能進這個要相互支持作為一個海洋國家海洋戰略其實是國防戰略的一環那麼海上交通線的維護海欄的維持衛星的通訊這個都是息息相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
595.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
595.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
611.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
611.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
635.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
636.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
652.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
680.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
另外就是說我們在原則核心戰術戰局下未來都是趨勢就是所謂的無人化可是無人化的系統並不是載台本身而是你的通訊指管那麼以及所謂的接戰規定交戰規則ROE這些是分層負責每個層級都不一樣的那後面我再向大家做一個敘述的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
682.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
708.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個是參考美軍啊這個從白宮啊這個National Command Authority就是說美國總統國安會跟國防部以及國務院他們如何把他的政策指導下售管理到印太司令部再管理到在駐日美軍駐海美軍甚至海上的艦隊分層負責全責下肉但是他們有一個共同的基礎就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
709.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
710.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
陳永康議員：陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
733.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
734.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以這個圖像可以看出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
749.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
755.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
COP共同圖像CTP他跟目前我們所謂的聯合情監偵是一貫性的從上到下從下到上 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
765.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
765.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
793.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
794.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
818.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
818.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
846.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
869.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
二無戰爭打到今天是953天可是一般人都講這個烏克蘭的經驗或者是加薩的經驗我們該學習學英我們同意這種看法但狀況不同的是這個領土面積烏克蘭是台灣的16.7倍人口只有2.3倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
871.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
871.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
898.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
898.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
920.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
920.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
946.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
975.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他必須全責下授因此烏克蘭是說去中心化但是在以色列跟加薩走廊以色列是完全掌握各位看這個是以色列的加薩走廊這種情況下以色列就沒有所謂的去中心化所以我們在這兩個不同的戰場環境下我們學習人家成功的經驗但是不是完全複製但他犯的錯誤我們不要付第二次的學費 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
980.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
995.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們可以用校正過的圖像 各位可以很清楚的看到台灣在這 烏克蘭在這可是現在伊朗打以色列在這個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
996.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
997.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
中共打導彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1024.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1025.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這張圖是有坐標經緯度跟落點當然這是根據工情 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1052.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1079.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以這是他的彈道高度把這種圖像跨部會分享對我們國際事務的反應上可以提供一個比較客觀的看法而不必對部分就是說名嘴媒體帶風向說我們掌握不住或是他主導多少這個是可以分享的一個資料那同樣這個右邊圖這是昨天的就是我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1083.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1105.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們現在關心的圖並不是只有臺灣周遭,東海、台海、南海整體的現象我們都關心。比方講談到中共穿越東邊出來走宮古水道,可是宮古島的位置,這個石垣島的位置與那國島的位置大家都聽到名字,並不知道在哪裡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1106.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1131.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
中共跟菲律賓最近在南海潛在的衝突但並沒有發生軍事衝突而是執法行為的衝突所謂的黃岩島這個先兵礁或者是仁愛礁大家都知道可是位置在哪裡其實在這個圖像上我們都可以把它做出來也就是說透過圖像的整合把所有的現象讓國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1133.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1133.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
陳永康議員：陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1163.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1163.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1183.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1184.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1202.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1226.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們的行政院內的國土安全辦公室目前是協調我們建議建立起這套其實不難的工具平台它可以顯示了所有的超高壓配電廠變電所那像在右邊這個資料圖上都可以顯示套上衛星圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1228.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1228.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1251.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1251.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1270.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1270.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1284.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1284.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
盧森堡 中軌衛星 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1308.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1308.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1330.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1330.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1345.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1345.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1373.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1398.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
他國的演習周遭的環境包括重大的新聞及時顯示充分運用共同圖像融合略過表層現象交叉比對信息圖像避免錯判勿帶風向強迫掌握情勢真相平站狀況要全程掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1400.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1400.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
陳永康議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1418.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1418.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
政務委員：陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1440.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1450.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
作戰中心跟指揮中心我們用的資料庫與戰線顯示圖必須要整合而不是各單位使用各單位的 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1451.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1479.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我今天主要的問政是強化這個韌性包括微波包括衛星包括海嵐那這個部分是不是請速發部的部長給我們做一點說明報告委員那個衛星的部分就地軌衛星我們今年預計會建置大概773個地面站那到今天為止已經有一半差不多370幾個站已經ready可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1480.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1503.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
在過去這些戰已經發生一些效用比如說在0403的地震已經發揮一些效果這個東西我們現在也是分布到全省各地包括這次颱風我們有部件在屏東跟高雄跟台南都有一些還不錯的結果所以這個目前是有在運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1504.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1519.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
微星本來就是我們一直在佈建的包括跟離島都有微星站的通信也都有安全的使用跟開通報告委員我在英國我自己試過OneWeb 微星 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1520.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1520.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1535.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1535.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
國防部長陳永康 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1562.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1562.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
谷部長谷部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1585.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1599.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
跟委員報告,委員的指導這個有關通訊指管的韌性的重要性這是國際一向是非常重視的那我們跟數碼部也一直維持一個密切的一個溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1604.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1622.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
在通訊的這個韌性的加強上面一直想要設防努力那當然我們自己也有我們國安部本身通訊執管的韌性那跟有盟國家之間所建構那這個部分比較機敏所以就可能不適宜在這裡做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1623.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1639.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但是呢就可以說明的部分當然就是我們要跟數碼部那麼來全力的來配合來達成我們整個全政府的到時候維持這個政府持續運作的一個通訊的一個韌性的維護這個也是必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1641.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1670.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
另外那個共同圖像部分希望部長再指導共同圖像的部分委員指導的非常正確就是說我們應該要有一個全政府的共同圖像但是我在這邊跟委員分享就是說這個全政府的共同圖像還是要區分出機敏跟非機敏的部分你不可能將我們這個部分的共同圖像跟所有跨部會都做分享那這樣的話我們就沒有這個機敏的可能性 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1671.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1686.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
所以在要建構一個全政府的共同圖像而且這個全政府共同圖像是具有韌性的那這個是非常重要的但是哪些是屬於全跨部會之間應該要可以共同分享的然後讓決策者來 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1688.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1690.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
這件事情我們應該要來努力的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1702.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1729.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 謝謝那我們請院長最後給我們一點指導謝謝委員上一次 上個會期到現在兩次的總質詢都聆聽到委員非常精闢專業的而且是圖文非常精緻那麼我相信也給國防部很大的一個衝擊我們的設備我們的準備也應該要超越這個才是國家的水準那剛剛委員談到內容相當的豐富至少對我來講有兩個觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1730.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1744.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
是在委員提出的這個論點當中我感覺到就是第一個我們必須承擔風險但是選擇一個較佳的結果我想這個政治上也是一樣軍事上也是一樣另外一個我們在講去中心化 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1745.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1765.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
但更重要的是這個責任全責下送之後有沒有能力來承擔得起這個去中心化之後是不是所有的單位可以再承擔得起以應各種緊急或是需要之所需我想這個都是我們在訓練過程當中甚至在演練過程當中必須去加強的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1766.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1779.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以我想這一套非常精緻的這個圖文跟上一次我也請國務部長在會後再跟委員請教上次一樣我想我們都會受教很多那麼能夠聽到這樣的事情我也認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1781.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1781.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
陳永康委員 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:15:29 - 16:45:34 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢） |
| gazette.lineno |
456 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
陳委員永康：（16時15分）院長、各位立院同仁、各位政府首長，大家好，各位媒體朋友好。有請卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
陳委員永康：卓院長，你好。本席今天的問政是聚焦在動態的國際情勢變化，以及我們國安情勢如何做一個適度的反應，實際上是提供政府比較精進的一些做法與建言。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][1] |
從本席出示的這個圖，可以看出來我們要看的實際上是一個大格局的視野，而不是聚焦在一個純粹島嶼的臺灣。現在國際情勢變化萬千，面對這個動態的局勢變化，對任何一個國家的國安問題都是一個挑戰。如果沒有一個完整的構想、架構，各位可以從這個圖上看出來，因為詭譎難測的國際情勢，比如說俄烏戰爭到今天已經打了950天，以哈戰爭也打了一年多，馬上可能爆發規模升高的伊朗和以色列的軍事衝突，都不是我們能夠完全掌握的。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][2] |
因為訊息甚多，來源不同，展示的報告方式不同，媒體也不同，所以我這邊強烈建議先建立一個共同圖像的平台。我們可以用比較進步的高科技，比方講，用GIS、UPGIS，然後把國際的圖經過校正，涵蓋國際圖、區域圖、亞太圖、臺灣周遭圖。因為臺海問題連結到東海、南海，它並不是單一的現象，同樣，在亞洲的問題包括朝鮮半島、日本、南海周邊，統統是一環扣一環，所以我們要有一個宏觀的看法，但是也要有微觀、細緻的掌握，從上到下有明確的政策指導，從下往上有力道的支撐、能量的展示，這要同步作為。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][3] |
因此這張圖就是告訴我們，為什麼基於國家安全，我們想到了社會堅韌、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強、臺海和平。這裡面包括了國安的幾個重要環節：政治面、外交面、經濟面、軍事面，這都跟兩岸相關；另外，有關能源、社會、醫療、產業，它都是基建相關。因此在這個條件下，有一個完整的國家安全戰略，透過跨部會的橫向協調，可以在比較短的時間做出一個正確性比較高的判斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][4] |
在這個環境下，我們不只是做風險控管、情勢控管、衝突的控管，也要做到災害的管制、災損的管制，在這個底下，我們看到由層峰指導，有國安會、有行政院的各位同仁，尤其是兩岸跟國防、外交，這是總統直接督導，即便在這個下面我們成立了三個委員會：國家氣候變遷對策委員會、全社會防衛韌性委員會、健康台灣推動委員會，它跟各個部會是有關聯性的，但是因為它不是編制內的，而是任務納編的，所以因為人事的調動或是因為選舉的結果，難免會產生變化，而就是造成了一個不是延續性的成果，即便最近報紙上登出來了，有關全社會防衛韌性有五個主軸，但是這個主軸上面的交集支撐以及下面的基礎設施哪些還要強化，我們還要看到政府持續把細節告知。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][5] |
國際形勢變化萬千，風險是常存在，但是如果因為國際的關係或是政策面，這兩者加上模糊、不確定，我們就會遇到危機的展示，所以萬國咸寧，惟變所適，心繫臺灣，行穩致遠，這個惟變所適就是要預應，基於國家安全戰略，我們做一個積極性的預防措施。那麼我們的國家領導人目前有這三個委員會，可是因為我們還是缺乏一個法制性的國家安全戰略，因此在某些狀況下，各位可以看到資源的分配不均，策略不容易同調，跨部會的協調如果不是層峰或者是院長出來召集，就會產生一些困難，我們也希望在這個裡面，政務委員跨部會協調要扮演更積極的角色。努力未必能夠同步，政策難以連續，最主要是強調國家安全戰略是指導各部會在風險的不確定性下預作計畫，對模糊的態勢要妥善的預應，而不是等待事件發生再做反應。尤其是全世界在各種專案裡面沒有最佳方案，只有妥適方案，因此我們是在最佳跟最壞中間要找到一個「可以接受較佳」的預期結果。因此我們在推動國家安全戰略是希望基於國家的安全、社會的繁榮，民主法治能夠持續下去，這個不分政黨大家共同的努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][6] |
所以各位可以看到，在國內的情勢下，影響它的包括經濟穩定、社會韌性、能源保障、資訊安全、人口結構、官僚體系、政黨形式、傳媒輿論、宗教文化、環境保護、國會結構，統統有關聯。因此立法院的委員會，其實它並不是單一的對象，尤其是在國際情勢上面，區域威脅、友盟變質、國際組織、國際法律、資訊安全、氣候變遷、能源短缺、重大的國際性傳染病都影響。這兩個不同的輸入產生了綜合評估國家安全戰略的重要效能，比方講兩岸的情勢、社會的韌性，這中間包含了國防、外交、經濟、能源、治安、人口政策。最後國家安全戰略是什麼？促進繁榮，確保民主，強化安全。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][7] |
因此，在目前政府沒有頒布國家安全戰略的這個情況下，我們面對一些要克服的困難，預期目標是政府發布國家安全戰略，確保國家的安全，維持臺海和平的穩定。我們有行動的重心，也有執行的手段，這個東西都可以透過跨部會的溝通，我們持續強化，讓它做得更周延，資源有限、時間有限、人力有限，如何在比較短的時間內，我們做出一個控管情勢，讓政府更穩定地向前邁進，國家安全戰略是不可或缺的一個重要支柱。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][8] |
在兩年前的國慶，政府團隊表示我們要建立強韌型的國家，四大韌性已經講了，經濟產業、社會安全網、國防戰力、民主自由體制，這是一個很好的目標，但是怎麼樣去努力達成呢？在今年總統就職滿月的時候，也強調了全社會防衛韌性，強化國防、民生、災防、民主四大韌性，同時面對不對稱作戰應具備的戰略思維，諸多牽動主動權的變數是受國外國際情勢的影響，那我們要建立營造國安環境建設性的關係，民生與國防的合一，這個就是國家韌性的關鍵因素。所以國防跟民生這兩個不要切割，在國家安全戰略裡面可以相互包容、可以做協調，而不是單獨聚焦在國防上你要如何軍購、如何建立你的防衛能力，而這邊如何維持不斷水、不斷電、不斷網、能源能進，這個要相互支持，作為一個海洋國家，海洋戰略其實是國防戰略的一環，那麼海上交通線的維護、海纜的維持、衛星的通訊，這個都是息息相關的。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][9] |
同時也提到了建構高韌性的軍事戰力，這個威脅是精準打擊與網路攻擊的混合性戰術，對面是日以繼夜的提升威懾的能力，對我們來講在承平時期，灰色地帶的行動是一個消耗戰，短期內並不想製造一個衝突，但是他用什麼呢？用網路攻擊、用錯誤的訊息帶動，消耗你的研析人力。另外，在越境飛機或是過中線或是環繞下，消耗你的戰備妥善率，因為重要的裝備，很多軍售裝備的廠機維修，我們還是要送回美國去，像F-16的重要配件，這一去一回就是一年，如果持續消耗下去，那我們就要想到有沒有強化替代的方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][10] |
另外，我們在原則、核心、戰術、戰具下，未來的趨勢就是所謂的無人化，可是無人化的系統並不是載台本身，而是你的通信指管以及所謂的接戰規定、交戰規則（ROE）。這些是分層負責，每個層級都不一樣的，後面我再向大家做一個敘述的方法，這個是參考美軍，從白宮National command authority，就是美國總統、國安會跟國防部以及國務院，他們如何把他的政策指導下授管理到印太司令部，再管理到駐日美軍、駐韓美軍，甚至海上的艦隊，分層負責、權責下授，但是他們有一個共同的基礎就是共同圖像，也就是說，從高層看，到區域看，到基層看，它的聯合作戰圖像到戰術畫面上下互通，在這種情況下，有確定、明確的交戰規則，分層負責，權責下授，這個叫做Decentralized，不是去中心化，它是權責下授。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][11] |
最糟糕的狀況下，就是某些情況下的通訊不通，他的下級部隊知道行為準則，該負的責任，承擔的責任、任務，而不要再請示，所以這個圖像可以看出來了，COP共同圖像（Common Operating Picture），CTP（Common Tactical Picture），它跟目前我們所謂的聯合情監偵C4ISR的data link是一貫性的，從上到下，從下到上，所以我們現在可以用高清的解析把臺灣的重要設施、民生設施，用資料庫的方法全部幫你標記出來，因此在承平跟戰時，也就是說作戰中心跟災防中心很多的基本資料庫是可以相通的，利用這種框架互相分享，可以降低人力的負荷，這是一個概念指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][12] |
現在我們國防報告書裡面在講的去中心化，其實它不是目標，它是中間的一個手段，也就是說，當你的指管部分通訊能力中斷的時候，你的下一級單位根據平時的任務賦予跟作戰計畫原本的參與感，橫向協調不斷，雖然上下有些溝通中斷，但是他能夠承擔這個責任，這個並不是去中心化，而是分散配置，權責下授。它是一種方法，它並不是說我們的層峰衡山指揮所的功能就要降低了，所以從這個觀念是建立一個完整的戰場環境的掌控，透過比較高科技的資料鏈路分享。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][13] |
俄烏戰爭打到今天是953天，可是一般人都講烏克蘭的經驗或者是加薩的經驗，我們該去學習，我們同意這種看法，但狀況不同的是，烏克蘭領土面積是臺灣的16.7倍，人口只有2.3倍，大家都不知道我們的人口密度是8.7比1，可是現在烏克蘭已經有1,000萬人到歐洲去了，所以真正我們的人口密度是10比1，而我們的人均電力消耗是烏克蘭的3.4到3.5倍。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][14] |
看看這個圖，從5月開始，它是一個動態的、每天在跑，如果我們有一個共同圖像，我們去看一下9月11日開始的烏東戰場，也就是烏克蘭占領的那一小塊，可是真正在頓涅茨克、盧甘斯克這個作戰的範圍，兩個臺灣都塞進去了，我們能夠把那個例子套進來嗎？不行的。成功的經驗我們當然要學習，但是並不是百分之百的可以複製，而它付出的慘痛教訓，我們要避免發生。這裡面包括烏克蘭部隊的旅級單位都已經重整兩次了，因為它的指管鏈路是受美國 Starlink的提供，從西部的指揮所到前線它必須權責下授，因此烏克蘭是說去中心化，但是在以色列跟加薩走廊的部分，以色列是完全掌握。各位看，這個是以色列的加薩走廊，在這種情況下，以色列就沒有所謂的去中心化，所以我們在這兩個不同的戰場環境下，我們學習人家成功的經驗，但是不是完全複製，而它犯的錯誤，我們不要付第二次的學費。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][15] |
各位可以從校正過的圖像很清楚地看到，臺灣在這，烏克蘭在這，可是現在伊朗打以色列在這個位置。透過GIS整合共同圖像加上資料庫，我們就可以把發生事情的地理位置、時間、物件、行動做一個整合，最後我們可以做一個比較客觀的分析判斷。這個是9月22號中共打導彈，因為它的落點是在大溪地的飛航情報區，所以它有通知法國，但是因為它的導彈彈道高度是1,200公里，幾乎已經進到我們的OneWeb衛星的軌道，所以它必須向國際衛星組織回報。我們再從另外一個圖來看，這張圖是有座標、經緯度跟落點，當然這是根據公情，所以這是它的彈道高度，把這種圖像跨部會分享，在我們對國際事務的反應上，可以提供一個比較客觀的看法，而不必被部分名嘴、媒體帶風向，說我們掌握不住，或是它主導多少，這個是可以分享的一個資料。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][16] |
同樣，這個右邊的圖是昨天颱風環繞的，我們現在關心的圖，並不是只有臺灣周遭，東海、臺海、南海，整體的現象，我們都關心。比方講，談到中共穿越東邊出來走宮古水道，可是宮古島的位置、石垣島的位置、與那國島的位置，大家都聽到名字卻不知道在哪裡。中共跟菲律賓最近在南海有潛在的衝突，但並沒有發生軍事衝突，而是執法行為的衝突。所謂的黃岩島，仙賓礁或者是仁愛礁，大家都知道，可是位置在哪裡？其實在這個圖像上，我們都可以把它做出來。也就是說，透過圖像的整合，把所有的現象讓國人、跨部會的同仁同步分享，做建言的時候、做政策決定的時候可以縮短決策的時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][17] |
像右邊的這張圖，我們陸軍同仁到現在還在用公元2000年的UTM座標圖，目前已經開始做數據化，但是還要花一點時間，可是即便數據化完成了，這個圖還要跟海圖、航圖共同校正，也就是說，陸軍的長官所看的事情不能侷限於本島。比方講，美國賣給我們的海馬斯火箭M142，它的有效射程30公里、70公里，甚至到300公里，在陸軍運用上，它的目標分配、目標獲得是不是跟海軍濱海作戰指揮部的魚叉飛彈要共同校對？不然變成重複打的，或者是漏掉，所以圖像的校正、重複、重疊運用是一個很有效的工具。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][18] |
同樣，這個圖上的資料很多是來自台電，但是我們行政院內的國土安全辦公室目前是協調，我們建議建立起這套其實不難的工具平臺，它可以顯示所有的所謂超高壓配電場、變電所，像在右邊這個資料，圖上都可以顯示，套上衛星圖，套上345千伏、161千伏變電所的位置，如果哪裡跳電了，可以顯示，我們甚至可以把臺北市多少座變電所，還有超高壓的，這個在板橋，都可以顯示。這個可以顯示跟顯示醫院的病床、消防體系是同一種工具的概念，它不只是數字，它是位置。這個東西我是建議我們要加快腳步，提升我們的應變能力，可以分享很多的有效情報，包括海纜的位置。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][19] |
我們海纜的通訊量是最大的，微波次之，衛星通訊是做備援系統，所以我們政府要確保海纜通訊及低軌衛星的有效應急支援。當然我們跟OneWeb簽了低軌衛星的部分，國防部也和數發部有分享，那個細節我們再另外討論，即便現在它另外跟盧森堡簽了三個中軌衛星。這個低軌、中軌在這邊轉，都可以顯示出我們的通訊有一定的能量，但是我們內部還是要瞭解我們的限制因素，有些東西持續強化，但是強化功能的同時，頻寬、通訊速度這些都是要額外投資的，這個我們瞭解政府，我們希望在這個上面持續建立穩健的強化能力。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][20] |
這個圖就是颱風的系統，這是今天早上6點鐘的，實際上，你背後看到的是海上的商船都避開這塊區塊，這個東西都可以直接到災防中心。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][21] |
最後一張圖就是我們作戰及救災可以利用平臺共同分享的，做一個整合的、虛擬式的戰情顯示，包括我們國安的重要軸向、他國的演習、周遭的環境，包括重大的新聞即時顯示。充分運用共同圖像，融合濾過表層現象，交叉比對信息圖像，避免錯判誤帶風向，強化掌握情勢真相，平戰狀況要全程掌握。所以我們建立完整的即時共同圖像，甚至可以模擬、假設我們軍演或是對方演習的想法、動態，這個時候都可以跨部會的分享。最主要就是像所有的電網如果故障了，在哪裡？可以讓每個部會首長知道，而不須要用打電話去紀錄，這是一個現在的工具可以很快強化功能的，我們建議也是能夠邀請政務委員來做跨部會的強化協調。作戰中心與指揮中心用的資料庫與戰情顯示圖必須要整合，而不是各單位使用各單位的。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][22] |
我今天主要的問政是強化韌性，包括微波，包括衛星，包括海纜，這個部分是不是請數發部的部長給我們做一點說明？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
黃部長彥男：報告委員，衛星的部分也就是低軌衛星，我們今年預計會建置773個地面站，到今天為止，已經有一半差不多三百七十幾個站已經ready可以用，過去這些站已經發生一些效用，比如在0403的地震已經發揮一些效果，這個東西我們現在也是分布到全省各地，包括這次颱風，我們有布建在屏東、高雄跟臺南都有一些還不錯的結果。這個目前是有在運作，衛星本來就是我們一直在布建的，包括跟離島都有衛星站的通信，也都有安全的使用跟開通。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
陳委員永康：我跟你報告，我在英國自己試過OneWeb衛星，利用我的電腦直接接到旅行車的天線上去，下來接到地面站，再透過海纜，我可以看臺灣的即時新聞。因為我們現在地面站這段還沒有克服，地面站目前用的是泰國的、日本的…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
黃部長彥男：是關島…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
陳委員永康：對，還有關島，未來我們希望地面站能夠建置，當然這個在合約談判裡面還要強化。另外就是有一些跟國防安全分享關於國防的部分，我希望顧部長能夠了解我們國軍的需求，因為有些東西跟數發部當初構建的、談的功能未必是相同的，所以還要有部分內部的溝通，這部分請顧部長指導我們的同仁在衛星需求上面跟數發部可能要做更進一步的協商跟溝通，當然站在國家安全的立場，我們是全力支持的。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，委員指導有關通訊指管韌性的重要性，其實國軍一向是非常重視的，我們跟數發部也一直維持密切的溝通，在通訊的韌性加強上面，一直想要設法努力，當然我們自己也有國防部本身通訊指管的韌性，跟友盟國家之間所建構的，因為這個部分比較機敏，所以可能不適宜在這裡說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
陳委員永康：是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
顧部長立雄：但是就可以說明的部分，當然就是我們要跟數發部全力配合，達成整個全政府的……到時候維持這個政府持續運作的通訊韌性的維護，這個也是必要的。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
陳委員永康：另外有關共同圖像部分，希望部長再指導我們國軍同仁…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
顧部長立雄：有關共同圖像的部分，委員指導的非常正確，就是說我們應該要有全政府的共同圖像，但是我在這邊跟委員分享，這個全政府的共同圖像還是要區分出機敏跟非機敏的部分，不可能將我們這個部分的共同圖像跟所有跨部會都做分享，這樣的話，我們就沒有機敏的可能性…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
陳委員永康：這個我了解，當然！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
顧部長立雄：所以要建構一個全政府的共同圖像，而且這個全政府的共同圖像是具有韌性的，這個是非常重要的，但是哪些是屬於跨部會之間應該可以共同分享的，然後讓決策者充分的理解，這個也很重要，究竟怎麼區隔出機敏的部分，把它切割出來，然後只讓某些可以揭密的人知道，這是我們應該要來努力的一件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
陳委員永康：謝謝，請院長最後給我們一點指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，從上個會期到現在，兩次的總質詢都聆聽到委員非常精闢、專業的發言，而且圖文非常精緻，我相信也給國防部很大的衝擊，我們的設備、我們的準備也應該要超越這個才是國家的水準。剛剛委員談到的內容相當豐富，至少對我來講，有兩個觀念是在委員所提出的這個論點當中：第一個，我們必須承擔風險，但是選擇一個較佳的結果，我想在政治上也是一樣、軍事上也是一樣。另外，我們在講去中心化，但更重要的是權責下授之後，有沒有能力承擔得起？去中心化之後，是不是所有單位可以再承擔得起，以應各種緊急之所需？我想這個都是我們在訓練過程當中、甚至在演練過程當中必須去加強的。所以我想這一套非常精緻的圖文，跟上一次一樣，我也請顧部長在會後再跟委員請教，我想我們都會受教很多。能夠聽到這樣的聲音，我也認為知己知彼不一定百戰百勝，但至少知己知彼之後，我們才能知道自助人助，我們自己要做更多的努力，我想整個國軍、整個國安系統都會再朝這個方向多多地努力，非常謝謝委員的指教。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
陳委員永康：謝謝部長，謝謝院長以及各位今天在座的同仁，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
顧部長立雄：謝謝指導。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
主席：謝謝陳永康委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][1] |
接下來請登記第54號李昆澤委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
106 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-3 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
郭昱晴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林宜瑾 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
張智倫 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
33 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137701_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[1] |
1137701_00003 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137701_00006 |