| IVOD_ID |
155059 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/155059 |
| 日期 |
2024-10-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-10-04T11:11:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-10-04T11:42:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:31:18 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/045a6e837d73a06a60a58c000d54b6717a8a9d3d5bde67044d1f922496ff12d773eb840be5c55e7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
23.883 |
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49.248 |
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蔣副院長、卓院長、各部會首長有請卓院長來請卓院長院長好政府員好首先感謝院長多次的來到花蓮了解和協助花蓮相關的交通的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
50.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
73.182 |
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我也要謝謝鄭委員我去花蓮你每次都會跟我們一起看看各地雖然你沒有在現場發表很多但是我看到你跟各鄉鎮長各地方的首長都私底下都有互動也都了解他們的狀況而且也透過各種各樣跟我談到很多這一點非常的感謝我們希望共同來努力把事情都做好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
75.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
84.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們先看今天這個大家所關心的總預算之所以被這個沒有辦法交付審查的一個言由 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
86.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
112.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個我先把主題 結論先講出來行政院應該依算法第79條最佳預算第一個要補足禁法補償的費用第二個要返還違法挪用綜合發展基金的59億多的錢理由以下這個森林法第10條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
114.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
135.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
岩竹林保育地被限制採伐然後呢森林法第31條規定森林法規定禁止岩竹林保育地我們自己所種植的林木禁止砍伐也明確的規定要發補償金請求補償金我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
143.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
168.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
主管機關是農業部農業部這個有關原住民族基本法21條規定的很清楚政府或法令限制原住民族利用前向土地就是原住民族土地及自然置業的時候受限制所生之損失應由該主管機關是誰啊農業部寬力預算補償之 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
173.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
181.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是長年以來都是 顏銘會在編譯上這個 我們看這個 簡東銘我的前輩 簡東銘立委在101年開始當然我的前輩曾華獨就開始提了簡東銘立委101年提案經濟及內政委員會經濟委員會主審 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
203.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
229.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
經濟及內政委員會從102年到104年審查了然後102年到104年是6次的黨團協商經過黨團協商之後104年8月當時的行政院就交代了人民會編列預算法律還沒通過先編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
231.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
256.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
然後104年的12月18號 這個我們這個單獨通過然後105年呢 1月6號公布施行這個計劃補償條例第二條定的執行機關是誰 農委會然後呢 這個補償的事宜由行政院編列一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
257.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
283.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
當初是行政院編的預算：但是還是交給人民會108年行政院提案修了這個第3條108年改為主管機關主管機關編誰呢?人民會這是法律的一個進法補償的一個整個原有我們看原住民族基本法第18條 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
285.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
313.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個是原住民族綜合發展基金的法言政府因涉原住民族綜合發展基金辦理原住民族經濟發展業務辦理原住民族經濟發展業務原住民族綜合發展基金收支保管及應用辦法第3條以及預算書行政院送來的預算書 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
315.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
338.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個預算書裡面特別明定本基金為預算法第4條第一項第二款第4目的特種基金是什麼呢凡付出仍可收回的特種基金付出去還可以收回比如說貸款貸款經濟貸款 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
341.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
367.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本經會收回來還有利息可以收回來競發補償就沒有這個發出去收不回來我們看這個今年度的明年度的114年度原住民族中文發展基金的預算書寫得很清楚就是我剛念的就是預算法第4條第4目 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
370.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
394.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
就是反復出能可收回的 寫得很清楚 預算書都是這樣寫好 我們看歷年105年度開始沒有動用到基金 有餘額公務預算有餘額 沒有動用到基金從106年開始公務基金公務預算跟綜合發展基金 106年度開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
398.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
422.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
公務預算綜合發展基金共同的編列所以按照剛才我講的研究法18條按照預算法的規定這個都是違法挪用的金額就是在第二後面的那個紅字的部分經過本席多次的質詢立法院也做了結議 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
424.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
443.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
事實上武力華也做了質詢：不應該用綜合發展基金：所以113年度：113就今年沒有用到綜合發展基金只有公務預算的補助所以114年度也應該要這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
452.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
477.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個剛剛已經說過了總共加起來就是違反我用了53億9千多萬立法院做過決議不得再用綜合發展基金了這個做過決議行政院仍持續的一直到112年度一直到113年度才做了正確的一個預算的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
482.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
509.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好 我們看這個基金中和發展基金 報告院長我在省政府當副局長的時候原住民行政局當副局長開始因為省議員的要求我們開始編列以前叫原住民主經濟事業發展基金經省之後考到中央考為原住民主中和發展基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
510.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
524.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
立法委員：也是一樣：一再的要求：要寬稠寬稠寬稠編列每年要由公務預算補助我們看這個預算書這是105年到12月31號的決算數基金的淨值117億7千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
536.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
560.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
當初的目標就是100億要做什麼用呢因為我們的貸款很困難因為我們是保留地原住民保留地你要貸款銀行不要所以必須要透過綜合發展基金作為我們的小銀行當初的目標是這樣有它的一個目的為了經濟發展你看這個禁止117到105點12月31號你看我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
566.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
587.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這是114年度的預算書啊這裡面你看看已經累積短促負的63億短促是什麼意思我特別查這個字點啊財源不足啊財源不足63億預計到114年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
591.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
612.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
裂肌短處67億多從100多億的錢現在變成裂肌短處所以我們才會提出所以這個部分我曾經也質詢過檢察委的貝提敏她是學法律的她說 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
614.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
616.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在這樣的情形之下我們先看到底有沒有違憲我們先看這個進法補償的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
644.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
673.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個整個審查今年就是這次的版本從113年高軍述美提案我113年3月20號本席也提案盧憲毅也提案吳立華委員也提案我們在4月的時候內政委員會審查通過通過之後113年4月24號陳寅委員也提案然後開始找朝夜協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
674.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
689.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
草寫協商之後就表決通過整個這一次的修法跨黨派72位的立委提案或連署72位民進黨的立委有32位這麼多還包含了黨團的吳思堯 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
703.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
727.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
幹事長還有幹部都有啊在這樣的情形之下那立法院做的決議有這麼多的立委所做的各跨黨派的立委所通過的法例這個是一個歷程我們甚至被抹黑啊有沒有看到這個貴黨的立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
729.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
745.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
劉憲宜6萬武力華6萬陳雲6萬高進樹梅5萬鄭天財5萬是這樣來的我們要備受這個但是我們不在意沒有關係我們重點就是要協助原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
747.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
770.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
根據中華民國憲法謝謝院長你沒有依憲法57條來提賦予要謝謝院長既然沒有提賦予就照案執行照法依法執行所以我也舉例為什麼沒有違憲99年2月11號民進黨團提案東部發展條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
776.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
801.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
99年2月24號國民黨團提案東部發展條例99年5月5號黃庭生提案東部發展條例楊仁福立委說要改為花東第七發展條例後來通過了叫 名稱叫花東第七發展條例一算多少呢要編列400億的花東基金沒有行政院的提案喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
802.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
825.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有行政院的提案400億的發動基金就這樣通過了照案執行還有很多老年農民福利津貼當初100年12月也是沒有行政院的版本沒有行政院的版本原住民族教育法103年這個原住民教育預算比例有1.2%調高為1.9%也沒有行政院版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
831.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
854.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這剛講過了104年了111年上一屆地方民代的這些條例村里長的這個增加他的這個費用沒有行政院版本為什麼到了原住民的就說有違憲還好要謝謝再次謝謝院長沒有體複業所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
859.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
885.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們還是要解決這個問題跟習氏公務員出生還是要怎麼樣依法行政怎麼樣去解決這個問題我們有解決的途徑預算法第79條規定很清楚可以追加稅出預算因為依法律增加業務依有關法律因補列追加預算者 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
886.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
914.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
可以追加預算﹖而不要讓整個立法院﹖或者是整個行政院﹖為了這個就傷腦筋﹖就那麼十幾億的錢﹖對不對﹖就十幾億的錢﹖五十幾億就賣一點好了﹖就先用十幾億的錢﹖五十三億可以賣一點﹖最起碼十七億的部分先追加預算﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
917.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
943.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個曾主委因為你過去在縣政府服務縣政府沒有基金你在文化園區服務他也沒有基金基金的運用各方面類你不是很了解沒有關係現在我就告訴你方法我也找過了主計長演名會就是要提主計長不可能幫你送 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
944.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
972.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你要提案的到主席總署送到行政院辦理追加預算預算法第79條追加預算不要再用我剛剛講了綜合發展基金不能動資所以不能有另外一條路我知道但是不能不能用操資並結算 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
974.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
1003.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
不能用原住民族綜合發展基金抄資並結算不可以用走這條路你可能想走這條路不可以就辦追加算我跟監察委員執行被提名的時候我說中華民國政府沒有窮到要違法挪用原住民族綜合發展基金我再次的說中華民國政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
1004.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
1026.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沒有窮到為了17億要再次繼續挪用原住民綜合發展基金所以不用回應了我就請院長能夠接受原民會的提案也請主席總署能夠支持這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
1029.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
1056.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
院長我們就往這個方向去努力也不要再讓這個總預算114年度的總預算在這邊來來回回可以嗎非常謝謝政委員算是從法制面來提供一個想法跟一個做法那這個計劃補償本來法案在修訂過程當中在制定過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
1058.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
1070.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
可以看得出來這不是黨派問題對所以各黨各派的委員都在裡面所以這不是黨派的立場而是基於行政跟立法之間兩院的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
1071.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1088.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
行政院制定跟編列預算大院來審議預算所以如果用一個法律就可以增加一筆預算或是一個特定的對象透過一個法律來增加一個預算未來磁力一開行政院無法掌握預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1089.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1107.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
法律會越來越多預算會越來越高我們全國性整體性的衡量評估規劃就失去了他的意義所以重點在這裡而不是黨派之爭沒有黨派的立場那這一點謝謝委員的理解那未來要用怎麼樣的方式來處理這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1110.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1132.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
結算的過程當中我們很清楚的表示3萬元的淨化補償補貼如果能夠提升循序漸進的先編列為4萬行政院是可以接受的我們可以衡量所以我們這次是編了預算編了4萬我也跟原民會講說你們如果認為這個很急那你裡面其他的費用要自己去挪用 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1132.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1142.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
如果你們認為其他的更急那這個費用要好好的跟立法院大院來做協商那至於說現在已經形成這個樣子我只希望說此利不可開 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1144.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1171.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
此例一開沒有辦法完成這個行政院預算的完整性我為什麼沒有提復議我也知道復議的結果是怎麼樣只增加兩院之間所以我們會有一個最終的一個救濟的方式但是我們現在還不想我們做我們希望透過協商來討論這個事情但原則是用一個法律增加預算此例再開行政院無法掌握預算的完整性這個請委員能夠理解院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1173.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1174.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝委員的建議花東回家的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1201.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1227.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個是這一次這個山陀鵝颱風所造成的113年10月2號當時蘇花公路搶修經過要謝謝交通部還有公路總局搶修之後就通車了192號那天天氣很好因為山陀鵝易走環流一直在南部 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1231.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1255.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
10月2號蘇花公路上午開放三次通行我要謝謝下午又開放兩次通行到了昨天一樣經過一個搶修之後一樣安全無疑之下三次開放通行我要談的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1256.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1284.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
同樣是交通部首瑕的﹖雖然他已經是國營化這個9月9月30號臺鐵公司發了第一個就開始這是9月30號10月10點52分花東沒有辦法到臺北不能到花蓮花蓮也不能到臺北這樣一個情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1285.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1314.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一直到10月3號還是一樣停止一直到昨天晚上我一直等一直等到了昨天晚上9點多發了今天可以通行的這個部分啊院長部長都去看了很多次不是留下來先受影響的是公路 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1316.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1342.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
公路受到很大影響才會到鐵路所以那天這兩天啊天氣都很好的所以這個部分啊鐵路局要積極台鐵公司要積極一點我以前當公務員會主動打電話到氣象局現在是氣象署我要了解我們到山區到底颱風的狀況會影響到怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1345.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1373.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
他可以問﹖這是你們首屬的﹖他可以問氣象署﹖這個地區的乙量如何﹖人還可以親自去看﹖到底是如何﹖鐵果有沒有怎麼樣﹖所以﹖很多的鄉親﹖因為什麼事情來到臺北﹖北部回不去﹖很多北部的鄉親回到﹖要去花蓮﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1374.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1375.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
北回鐵路 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1396.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1418.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那個部長非常年輕的時候開始通行的可能3歲的時候吧部長年輕的時候北威鐵路通行從動工到通行花了6年的時間北威鐵路是最困難的非常多的隧道它是最困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1421.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1450.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
蘇阿改蘇阿改從97年11月10號行政院合定可行性研究到這個通車109年1月6號從行政院合定可行性研究到通車花了11年然後從97年行政院合定可行性研究到動工動工喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1452.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1476.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
開始動工是兩年兩個月就是從核定可行性研究到開始動工花兩年兩個月然後11年通測接下來的就是蘇化安現在發生災情的都是在蘇化安的位置好 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1477.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1502.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
蘇瓦安的原姓七個部落 原住民的部落全部同意依原紀法行使同意 全部同意然後呢 環評 經過幾次的環評 也通過了好 我們看目前的議題108年12月20號 行政院核定可行性研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1506.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1531.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
108年核定到現在都還沒有開始要動工在這樣的一個情形之下已經五年多了近五年了將近五年我剛講了兩年多朱瓦安是兩年多就動工了現在已經五年多了還沒有動工然後預計完工的日期年份 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1532.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1548.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
一再的展演所以這個部分這個就是要行政院這邊能夠支持當然最重要的就是交通部要趕快送啊要報啊 要報行政院啊報告委員現在正在國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1550.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1574.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
報告委員陳部長非常的了解﹖也掌握整個進度﹖包括東部的鐵公路﹖如何盡快的修繕﹖盡快的通車都掌握到了﹖剛剛委員所提到的樹花庵﹖目前的最新的進度﹖也在國發會裡﹖在審議當中謝謝國發會主動來 主委報告委員目前我們已經函各單位在回覆意見中我們預計10月15號開審議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1577.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1592.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
那這個是院交辦要加速辦理的所以呢我們會很謹慎而且快速的把它完成那另外也跟委員報告齁因為這個如果要開始動的話就需要預算所以我們的總預算要趕快過我們就可以很快的來動工 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1593.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1612.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
有編列到114年度預算嗎有5000多萬在114年度我有看5000多萬是不足的是不足所以需要再更多一些所以要拜託委員在總預算的部分能夠幫忙總長將近30公里總預算會超過1050億以上明年我們就會開始那現在只要這樣子國發費 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1623.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1638.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
請各部會來各種意見之後我們就會看明年就會順利的公示我也相信我也期待這個預算在明年能夠順利的執行會通過啦謝謝委員你要努力要拜託禁法補償的費用17億而已好這個好我們的國防部請國防部長來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1652.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1673.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
本席幾乎每一個院長來我都質詢了國軍志願役士兵大幅下降我們看這個國防部的這個預算以創新高明年又在足額上場總額達到6470億新台幣我常說我們也要問這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1683.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1712.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我沒有反對最重要的是什麼我常說一句話你買再好的武器再精良的武器要不要人操作要不要軍人操作要軍人操作但是我們的退伍人員比招募士兵的還這個士兵士兵是第一最重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1713.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1735.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
而自願役的士兵：比這個義乎義的更重要我們看自願役士兵大幅下降這個109啊自願役的士兵5萬4千757其實5萬4千都不算多了已經是太少了到113 4萬1670114剩下3萬6千多 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1742.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1742.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
臺灣勞工的基本 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1771.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1798.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
基本工資每年調平均薪資達到4萬6千多了平均薪資我們的還是這麼低 我也執行過好幾次所以很重要的你沒有增加這個志願役的薪資誰去當兵何況誰誰要打仗打仗沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1800.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1822.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
但是要有戰力這個就是備戰備戰最重要的就是還是要有士兵一無一士兵現在一無一只有一年根本沒辦法打戰我當兩年多也沒辦法打戰所以還是要靠自願意院長多支持國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1824.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1838.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
跟委員報告現在委員關心的主要是基層的士官兵現在主要是上市以上大概都超過這個勞工平均經常性的性質就上市以上都超過那現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1864.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1871.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
好謝謝好謝謝鄭委員下一位我們請徐富奎委員質詢 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-10-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:11:37 - 11:42:55 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢） |
| gazette.lineno |
670 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時12分）江副院長、卓院長、各部會首長，有請卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：首先感謝院長多次來到花蓮，了解和協助花蓮解決相關的交通問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我也要謝謝鄭委員，我去花蓮，你每次都會跟我們一起看看各地，雖然你沒有在現場發表很多看法，但是我看到你跟各鄉鎮長、各地方首長私底下都有互動，也都了解他們的狀況，而且也透過各種機會跟我談到很多，這一點非常的感謝，我們希望共同努力來把事情都做好。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝，我們先看今天大家所關心的總預算，之所以沒有辦法交付審查的緣由，我先把主題、結論講出來，行政院應該依預算法第七十九條追加預算，第一要補足禁伐補償的費用，第二要返還違法挪用綜合發展基金的五十三億多的錢，理由如下：森林法第十條規定，原住民保留地被限制採伐，然後森林法第三十一條規定，禁止砍伐我們自己在原住民保留地上所種植的林木，也明確的規定要發補償金，「得請求補償金」，這個主管機關是農業部；原住民族基本法第二十一條規定得很清楚：「政府或法令限制原住民族利用前項土地（就是原住民族土地）及自然資源時……受限制所生之損失，應由該主管機關（也就是農業部）寬列預算補償之」，但是長年以來都是原民會在編預算。我的前輩簡東明立委從101年開始，當然我的前輩曾華德就開始提了，簡東明立委101年提案，經濟及內政委員會，經濟委員會主審。經濟及內政委員會從102年到104年審查了，102年到104年是6次黨團協商，經過黨團協商之後，104年8月，當時行政院就交代了原民會編列預算，法律還沒通過喔！先編列了預算。104年12月18日，這個三讀通過，105年1月6日公布施行禁伐補償條例，第二條訂的執行機關是誰？農委會。補償事宜由行政院編列預算，當初是寫行政院編列預算，但還是交給原民會。108年行政院提案修了第三條，108年，改為主管機關，主管機關變誰呢？原民會。這是法律上禁伐補償的整個緣由。 |
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我們看原住民族基本法第十八條，這個是原住民族綜合發展基金的法源，「政府應設原住民族綜合發展基金，辦理原住民族經濟發展業務」，辦理原住民族「經濟發展業務」。原住民族綜合發展基金收支保管及運用辦法第三條，以及預算書，行政院送來的預算書，這個預算書裡面特別明定「本基金為『預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目』特種基金。」是什麼呢？「凡付出仍可收回」的特種基金。付出去還可以收回，譬如貸款，貸款、經濟貸款本金會收回來，還有利息可以收回來。禁伐補償就沒有這個，發出去收不回來。我們看明（114）年度原住民族綜合發展基金預算書，寫得很清楚，就是我剛剛唸的，預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目，「凡付出仍可收回」的。寫得很清楚，預算書都是這樣寫。 |
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我們看歷年，105年度開始沒有動用到基金，有餘額。公務預算有餘額，沒有動用到基金。從106年開始，公務預算跟綜合發展基金共同編列，所以按照剛才我講的原基法第十八條，按照預算法規定，這個都是違法挪用的金額，就是在後面那個紅字的部分。經過本席多次質詢，立法院也作了決議，事實上伍麗華也做了質詢，不應該用綜合發展基金，所以113年度，就是今年，沒有用到綜合發展基金，只有公務預算的補助，因此114年度也應該要這樣。 |
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這個剛剛已經說過了，總共加起來違法挪用了五十三億九千多萬。立法院作過決議，不得再用綜合發展基金了，這個作過決議。行政院仍持續地一直到112年度，一直到113年度才做了正確的預算編列。 |
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我們看這個基金，綜合發展基金，報告院長，我在省政府擔任原住民行政局副局長的時候，因為省議員的要求，我們開始編列以前的原住民族經濟事業發展基金，精省之後來到中央，改為原住民族綜合發展基金，立法委員也是一樣，一再要求要寬籌編列，每年要由公務預算補助。 |
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我們看這個預算書，這是105年到12月31日的決算數，基金淨值是一一七億七千多萬。當初的目標就是100億，要做什麼用呢？因為我們貸款很困難，我們的土地是保留地，原住民保留地要貸款銀行不要，所以必須透過綜合發展基金做為我們的小銀行。當初的目標是這樣，有它的一個目的，為了經濟發展。你看這個淨值，到105年12月31日是117億。 |
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接下來這是114年度的預算書，你看看，累積短絀已經是63億，是負的喔！短絀是什麼意思？我特別查了字典，就是財源不足。所以是財源不足63億，預計到114年度，累積短絀六十七億多。從一百多億的錢，現在變成累積短絀這麼多！所以我們才會提出。我也曾經質詢過監察委員被提名人，他是學法律的，他說禁伐補償和經濟發展是不同的概念，他也是這樣認為，所以很可惜，他沒有做調查。 |
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在這樣的情形之下，我們來看到底有沒有違憲。到底有沒有違憲？我們先看禁伐補償的整個審查，這次的版本從113年高金素梅委員提案，113年3月20號本席也提案，接下來盧縣一委員也提案、伍麗華委員也提案，4月的時候內政委員會審查通過，通過之後，113年4月24號陳瑩委員也提案，然後開始朝野協商，朝野協商之後就表決通過。這次整個修法有跨黨派72位立委提案或連署，72位耶！其中民進黨的立委有32位之多，還包含了黨團的吳思瑤幹事長，也有其他幹部，都有啊！是在這樣的情形之下，立法院做了決議，而且是這麼多跨黨派立委所通過的法律，對於這個歷程，你們甚至還可以抹黑！ |
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比如說盧縣一6萬，貴黨立委伍麗華6萬、陳瑩6萬，高金素梅5萬，鄭天財5萬。是這樣來的啊！我們背負這個，但是我們不在意，沒有關係，我們的重點就是要協助原住民。根據中華民國憲法，對不對？謝謝院長，你沒有依憲法第五十七條提覆議，這要謝謝院長。既然沒有提覆議，就照案執行、依法執行嘛！ |
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我也要舉例說明為什麼沒有違憲。99年2月11日，民進黨黨團提出東部發展條例草案，99年2月24日，國民黨黨團提出東部發展條例草案，99年5月5日，王廷升提出東部發展條例草案，楊仁福立委說要改為花東地區發展條例，後來通過了，名稱叫花東地區發展條例。預算多少呢？要編列400億的花東基金，沒有行政院的提案，400億的花東基金就這樣通過了，照案執行。還有很多，老年農民福利津貼，當初100年12月也是沒有行政院的版本。原住民族教育法，103年原住民教育預算比例由1.2%調高為1.9%，也沒有行政院版本。104年的，這個剛才講過了。111年上一屆，地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費補助條例，增加他的費用，沒有行政院版本。為什麼到了原住民的就說有違憲？還好，要再次謝謝院長沒有提覆議。 |
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所以我們還是要解決這個問題，本席是公務員出身，還是要依法行政，怎麼樣去解決這個問題，我們有解決的途徑。預算法第七十九條規定得很清楚，可以追加歲出預算，因為依法律增加業務、依有關法律應補列追加預算者，可以追加預算，而不要讓整個立法院或者是整個行政院為了這個去傷腦筋，就那麼十幾億的錢，對不對？就十幾億的錢，五十幾億就慢一點好了，先用十幾億的錢，53億可以慢一點，最起碼17億的部分先追加預算。 |
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曾主委，因為你過去在縣政府服務，縣政府沒有基金；你在文化園區服務，它也沒有基金。基金的運用、各方面編列，你不是很了解，沒有關係，現在我就告訴你方法，我也找過主計長，原民會就是要提啊！主計長不可能幫你送，你要提案到主計總處，主計總處送到行政院辦理追加預算，依預算法第七十九條追加預算，不要再用…… |
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曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告…… |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我剛剛講了，綜合發展基金不能動支，所以不能……有另外一條路，我知道，但是不能用原住民族綜合發展基金超支併結算，不可以走這條路，你可能想走這條路，不可以！就辦追加預算，我質詢監察委員被提名人時，我說中華民國政府沒有窮到要違法挪用原住民族綜合發展基金，我再次的說，中華民國政府沒有窮到為了17億，要再次繼續挪用原住民綜合發展基金！所以不用回應，我就請院長能夠接受原民會的提案，也請主計總處能夠支持這個部分。院長，我們就往這方向去努力，也不要再讓114年度的總預算在那邊來來回回，可以嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝鄭委員，算是從法制面來提供一個想法跟一個作法，禁伐補償本來法案在修訂過程中、在制定過程當中，可以看得出來這不是黨派問題…… |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。 |
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卓院長榮泰：各黨各派的委員都在裡面，所以這不是黨派的立場，而是基於行政跟立法之間兩院的關係，行政院制定跟編列預算，大院來審議預算，所以如果用一個法律就可以增加一筆預算，或是一個特定的對象透過一個法律來增加一個預算，未來此例一開，行政院無法掌握預算，法律會越來越多，預算會越來越高，我們全國性、整體性的衡量、評估、規劃，就失去了它的意義，所以重點在這裡，而不是黨派之爭，沒有黨派的立場，這一點謝謝委員的理解。 |
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那未來要用怎麼樣的方式來處理這個事情？其實在協商的過程當中，我們很清楚地表示，3萬元的禁伐補償補貼如果能夠提升，循序漸進的先編列為4萬，行政院是可以接受的，我們可以衡量，所以我們這次的預算是編了4萬。我也跟原民會講說，你們如果認為這個很急，那你裡面其他的費用要自己去挪用，如果你們認為其他的更急，那這個費用要好好的跟立法院大院來做協商，至於說現在已經形成這個樣子，我只希望說此例不可開，此例一開，沒有辦法完成行政院預算的完整性，我為什麼沒有提覆議？我也知道覆議的結果是怎麼樣，只增加兩院之間……所以我們會有一個最終的救濟方式，但是我們現在還不想這樣做，我們希望透過協商來討論這個事情，但原則是用一個法律增加預算，此例再開，行政院無法掌握預算的完整性，這個請委員能夠理解。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，原住民不是第一個開例的，我剛剛有舉了很多例子，原住民不是第一個開例的，而且這個預算真的不多，就請參採本席唯有依法行政的一個途徑，好不好？ |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。花東回家的路，這個是這一次山陀兒颱風所造成的，113年10月2號，當時蘇花公路搶修……我要謝謝交通部還有公路總局，搶修之後就通車了，10月2號，那天天氣很好，因為山陀兒欲走還留，一直在南部。10月2號蘇花公路上午開放3次通行，我要謝謝，下午又開放2次通行，到了昨天一樣，經過又搶修之後，一樣在安全無虞之下3次開放通行。我要談的是，同樣是交通部所轄的，雖然它已經是國營化，9月30號臺鐵公司發了第一個就開始，這是9月30號10點52分，花東沒有辦法到……臺北不能到花蓮，花蓮也沒有辦法到臺北，有這樣的情形。一直到10月3號還是一樣停駛，一直到昨天晚上，我一直等一直等，到了昨天晚上9點多發了今天可以通行。這個部分院長、部長都去看了很多次，土石流下來，先受影響的是公路，公路受到很大影響才會到鐵路，那這兩天天氣都很好，所以這個部分鐵路局要積極，臺鐵公司要積極一點。 |
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我以前當公務員會主動打電話到氣象局，現在是氣象署，我要了解我們山區到底颱風的狀況會影響到怎麼樣。他可以問，都是你們所屬的，可以問氣象署這個地區的雨量如何，人還可以親自去看到底路是如何、鐵軌有沒有怎麼樣，所以很多的鄉親因為什麼事情來到臺北，北部回不去，很多北部的鄉親要去花蓮、臺東也回不去，所以這個部分要檢討改進。 |
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我們看這個，蘇花安遙遙無期，要特別請院長支持。我們先看北迴鐵路，這個是我們部長非常年輕的時候開始通行的，可能是3歲的時候吧！ |
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陳部長世凱：是。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你在很年輕的時候，北迴鐵路通行了。 |
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陳部長世凱：是我小時候。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：從動工到通行花了6年的時間，北迴鐵路是最困難的，有非常多的隧道，它是最困難的。蘇花改從97年11月10日行政院核定可行性研究到109年1月6日通車花了11年；97年行政院核定可行性研究到開始動工是2年2個月，然後花11年通車。接下來的就是蘇花安，現在發生災情的都是在蘇花安的位置，蘇花安沿線有7個原住民的部落，依原基法行使同意權全部同意，然後經過幾次的環評也通過了。 |
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好，我們看目前的預計。108年12月20日行政院核定可行性研究，108年核定到現在都還沒有開始要動工，在這樣的情形之下已經近5年。我剛剛講了，蘇花改是兩年多就動工了，現在已經五年多了還沒有動工，然後預計完工的日期、年份一再地展延，所以這個部分就是要行政院來支持，當然最重要的就是你交通部要趕快送啊！要報行政院啊！ |
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陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在正在國發會。 |
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卓院長榮泰：報告委員，陳部長非常地瞭解，也掌握了整個進度，包括東部的鐵公路要如何儘快地修繕、儘快地通車都掌握到了。剛剛委員提到的蘇花安，目前最新的進度也在國發會裡審議當中，我們希望能夠…… |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝國發會主委主動出來。 |
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劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，目前我們已經函各單位在回復意見中，我們預計10月15號開審議委員會，這個是院交辦要加速辦理的，所以我們會很謹慎而快速地把它完成。 |
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陳部長世凱：另外也跟委員報告，這個如果要開始動的話就需要預算，所以我們的總預算要趕快過，就可以很快地動工。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有編到114年度的預算嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
陳部長世凱：有，有五千多萬在114年度裡。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我有看啦，但是五千多萬是不足的啦！ |
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陳部長世凱：是，是不足，還要再更多一些，所以要拜託委員在總預算的部分能夠幫忙。 |
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卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，這個總長將近30公里。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。 |
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卓院長榮泰：總預算會超過1,050億以上，明年我們就會開始，現在只要這樣子，國發會請各部會提出各種意見之後，我們明年就會順利地有共識，我相信也期待這個預算在明年能夠順利地執行。 |
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鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：會通過啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，要努力地拜託…… |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是要解決禁伐補償的費用，17億而已。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][1] |
好，請國防部長來。這個議題，幾乎每個院長來本席都會質詢，國軍志願役士兵大幅下降。我們看國防部的預算是屢創新高，明年的又再足額上漲，總額達到新臺幣6,470億。我沒有要問這個，我沒有反對，最重要的是什麼？我常說一句話，你買再好的武器、再精良的武器，要不要有人操作？要不要有軍人操作？要軍人操作，但是我們的退伍人員比招募的士兵還多。士兵是第一，最重要的，而志願役的士兵比義務役的更重要！ |
| gazette.blocks[33][2] |
我們看，志願役士兵大幅下降，109年志願役的士兵5萬4,757，其實五萬四千多不算多，已經是太少啦！到113年，4萬1,670，114年剩下三萬六千多，這裡面還有提早離開的，有的不適應，就提早離開了。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][3] |
還有薪資，你看這個薪資，三萬多塊的薪資，在裡面沒有自由，很辛苦的，我們都當過兵，沒有自由，很辛苦的，才三萬多塊。臺灣勞工的基本工資每年調，平均薪資達到四萬六千多，我們志願役的還是這麼低！我有質詢過好幾次，所以很重要的，你們沒有增加志願役的薪資，誰去當兵？何況隨時要打仗，打仗沒有關係，但是要有戰力，這個就是備戰，備戰最重要的還是要有士兵，現在義務役只有1年，根本沒有辦法打仗！我當兩年多也沒有辦法打仗，所以還是要靠志願役。院長，多支持國防部！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在委員關心的主要是基層的士官兵，現在上士以上的大概都超過勞工的平均經常性薪資，就上士以上的都超過，現在中士以下的這個部分還沒有，所以在這個部分我們會來進行研討，就是如何就基層…… |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，看你還是沒有感覺，所以還是回去…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們已經…… |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：多瞭解為什麼這些士兵會離開，就為什麼招募的士兵沒有辦法補足，這個還是多瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員建議，這是一個非常值得研議的議題，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
主席：謝謝鄭委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
主席：下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
25 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-3 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
江啟臣 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-10-04 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1137701_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
報告事項 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137701_00001 |